Bad mommy or cultural difference?

Banty wrote:

OK, shoot me, but I've noticed that American moms just plain won't, just won't
won't won't, for some unexaplainable reason - - -

*pick the toddler up and just plain hold them so they don't get into trouble*.
American moms call, European moms go and get the kid. (I also note northern
Europeans are quieter than Americans about public behavior, maybe that's a
factor.)

You too! Why chase? Why *explain*? What's *with* all that stuff?

Now, maybe yours would struggle about it, but, if she were used to this, likely
she wouldn't.

I think, as with just about everything, it really depends
on the child. My first two were very un-touchy kids. They *really*
didn't want to be held (if I got a cuddle, it was time to start
wondering why the kid wasn't feeling good). They did not want to
be held for any length of time. Still, in a pinch, if I needed to
restrain them or keep them out of something I could pick them up
for at least some period of time.
With DD, on the other hand, if my goal is to limit
disturbing others, grabbing her is probably the last thing on
the list to do (immediately prior to hauling her out of the
place on the double). Not only would she struggle, but she'd
be screaming at the top of her lungs while doing so. It's just
the way she is, and always has been. Even before she could walk,
if she *had* to be carried, she wanted to be carried with the
least restriction and contact possible. And kids like her can
do the same "boneless" thing that cats can do when they don't
want to be held. It's like trying to hold onto a greased pig.
Now, that does make her a much more challenging child to
deal with in a public space. Personally, I avoid taking her
to places like Best Buy where she's going to be bored and
overstimulated (and likely to race around as a result).
If I can't avoid it, I'll try for a cart or stroller (with
a seatbelt, or better yet, a five-point harness) and keep
the trip short. If I have to take her somewhere that she
needs to be restrained for a goodly amount of time, then
I need a stroller/cart/whatever with a harness *and* a
fairly steady stream of laptop amusements or I might just
as well bang my head against a brick wall for all the luck
I'll have keeping her quiet and out of trouble.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:

OK, shoot me, but I've noticed that American moms just plain won't, just won't
won't won't, for some unexaplainable reason - - -

*pick the toddler up and just plain hold them so they don't get into trouble*.
American moms call, European moms go and get the kid. (I also note northern
Europeans are quieter than Americans about public behavior, maybe that's a
factor.)

You too! Why chase? Why *explain*? What's *with* all that stuff?

Now, maybe yours would struggle about it, but, if she were used to this, likely
she wouldn't.

I think, as with just about everything, it really depends
on the child. My first two were very un-touchy kids. They *really*
didn't want to be held (if I got a cuddle, it was time to start
wondering why the kid wasn't feeling good). They did not want to
be held for any length of time. Still, in a pinch, if I needed to
restrain them or keep them out of something I could pick them up
for at least some period of time.

Well, sure it depends. But I *have* noticed a reticence to just go and pick up
the kid. In the case of your daughter, you have the option of taking her
*somewhere else*. Or, like with my son (who also hated to held in any
constraining way, although he liked it OK on my hip facing out and would sleep
over my shoulder), put them in a stroller. The parent knows the kid, the parent
devises strategies accordingly.

Possibly, the more naturally quiet Swiss kids were the ones sitting, and more
rambunctious Swiss kids were being held or in strollers I mean, I truly
don't think the Swiss (or the Japanese, etc. etc.) are lacking in tempramental
variety in their kids. It's that, just like with car seats, certain strategies
are set in place firmly and early.

With DD, on the other hand, if my goal is to limit
disturbing others, grabbing her is probably the last thing on
the list to do (immediately prior to hauling her out of the
place on the double). Not only would she struggle, but she'd
be screaming at the top of her lungs while doing so. It's just
the way she is, and always has been. Even before she could walk,
if she *had* to be carried, she wanted to be carried with the
least restriction and contact possible. And kids like her can
do the same "boneless" thing that cats can do when they don't
want to be held. It's like trying to hold onto a greased pig.

Then, you'd be pre-strollerified and avoid that whole scenario, no?

Now, that does make her a much more challenging child to
deal with in a public space. Personally, I avoid taking her
to places like Best Buy where she's going to be bored and
overstimulated (and likely to race around as a result).

Heck - *I'm* overstimulated at Best Buy I hate that place.

If I can't avoid it, I'll try for a cart or stroller (with
a seatbelt, or better yet, a five-point harness) and keep
the trip short. If I have to take her somewhere that she
needs to be restrained for a goodly amount of time, then
I need a stroller/cart/whatever with a harness *and* a
fairly steady stream of laptop amusements or I might just
as well bang my head against a brick wall for all the luck
I'll have keeping her quiet and out of trouble.

But you *do* do those things. You don't yell "no no", where no one else seems
to be doing so (when in Rome...) and go around chasing, explaining, by golly.

My neighbor with three boys would call out to her boy to come when I was
visiting on the porch; he'd ignore her, then she'd look at me with this look and
hand gesture "see what I have to deal with??". One time I actually did tell her
"well, just go GET HIM"

Banty

Banty wrote:

Possibly, the more naturally quiet Swiss kids were the ones sitting, and more
rambunctious Swiss kids were being held or in strollers I mean, I truly
don't think the Swiss (or the Japanese, etc. etc.) are lacking in tempramental
variety in their kids. It's that, just like with car seats, certain strategies
are set in place firmly and early.

Actually, I think there is some evidence that there are
temperamental/personality traits that do vary somewhat with
race/culture/etc. Obviously, those are probably things like
sex differences, where the distributions overlap, but apparently
there are differences. They may not be genetic (may be due
to the environment in utero), but seem to be observable from
birth.

Heck - *I'm* overstimulated at Best Buy I hate that place.

Well, yeah, me too. We avoid it like the plague.

My neighbor with three boys would call out to her boy to come when I was
visiting on the porch; he'd ignore her, then she'd look at me with this look and
hand gesture "see what I have to deal with??". One time I actually did tell her
"well, just go GET HIM"

I do agree that there are folks who seem bewildered that
their kids don't arrive under voice control. On the other hand,
it doesn't sound to me like the OP was expecting her child to
be under voice control and throwing up her hands when that didn't
work. I think she was just trying various strategies to
figure out what *would* work. IIRC, she *did* start by picking the
child up, but the child wouldn't stay in her arms, leaving her
trying to manage the child on the loose or making a scene by
holding onto her. I'd have been in a similar situation with
my DD at 18 months if I didn't plan *really* well in advance
and bring along not only a stroller or some other restraint
device, but also toys/food/etc. to keep the child distracted
while in the stroller. And even with that preparation, I'd only
have slightly better than even odds of not having to take her
out of the store (hence the avoidance as the first order strategy ;-) ).
And if she got ornery in the store, I really would have to
consider whether it'd be more irritating if I spent some
moments trying to advise/distract/redirect or if I just grabbed
and ran, with DD likely kicking and screaming (which can be
rather spectacular). I don't know that the onlookers would have
been all that much happier with the latter strategy, depending
on how prolonged option 1 was.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:

Possibly, the more naturally quiet Swiss kids were the ones sitting, and more
rambunctious Swiss kids were being held or in strollers I mean, I truly
don't think the Swiss (or the Japanese, etc. etc.) are lacking in tempramental
variety in their kids. It's that, just like with car seats, certain strategies
are set in place firmly and early.

Actually, I think there is some evidence that there are
temperamental/personality traits that do vary somewhat with
race/culture/etc. Obviously, those are probably things like
sex differences, where the distributions overlap, but apparently
there are differences. They may not be genetic (may be due
to the environment in utero), but seem to be observable from
birth.

The *Swiss*? Would be different diet-wise from Americans how? Should we load
up on cheese and chocolate?? I'm skeptical, honestly.


Heck - *I'm* overstimulated at Best Buy I hate that place.

Well, yeah, me too. We avoid it like the plague.

My neighbor with three boys would call out to her boy to come when I was
visiting on the porch; he'd ignore her, then she'd look at me with this look and
hand gesture "see what I have to deal with??". One time I actually did tell her
"well, just go GET HIM"

I do agree that there are folks who seem bewildered that
their kids don't arrive under voice control. On the other hand,
it doesn't sound to me like the OP was expecting her child to
be under voice control and throwing up her hands when that didn't
work. I think she was just trying various strategies to
figure out what *would* work.

Nope. Just wouldn't go and *get* the kid. I've seen it elsewhere, too, like
the OP.

IIRC, she *did* start by picking the
child up, but the child wouldn't stay in her arms, leaving her
trying to manage the child on the loose or making a scene by
holding onto her. I'd have been in a similar situation with
my DD at 18 months if I didn't plan *really* well in advance
and bring along not only a stroller or some other restraint
device, but also toys/food/etc. to keep the child distracted
while in the stroller. And even with that preparation, I'd only
have slightly better than even odds of not having to take her
out of the store (hence the avoidance as the first order strategy ;-) ).
And if she got ornery in the store, I really would have to
consider whether it'd be more irritating if I spent some
moments trying to advise/distract/redirect or if I just grabbed
and ran, with DD likely kicking and screaming (which can be
rather spectacular). I don't know that the onlookers would have
been all that much happier with the latter strategy, depending
on how prolonged option 1 was.

I think if it were a particularly intractible situation, you would choose a
different venue. Right?

Banty

On Jan 6, 10:45 am, Pologirl wrote:
Cjra wrote:
yelling in my American accent "NO!" over and over again

Sorry, I would try to ignore you, but I might glare at you too.
Yelling "NO!" over and over not only is annoying for everyone else in
hearing range, but also teaches the child that "NO! means "You are
making me crazy, you have my number, go ahead, do it some more! Push
my buttons! Be a brat!" It is at *best* nagging. I would hold the
child and if that did not suffice I would take the child outside,
perhaps even to the car (if we came in one) and buckle the child into
the child's car seat.

I'd like to think that all of us, having had bad days with small kids,
would opt to see if we could help, instead of glaring. The closest I
come to a religion is a karmic belief that if I can help someone when
they're having a bad time, they can in turn help someone else in need,
who might be a friend of mine.

On the other hand, I let my children touch and examine items on
display in stores, that are intended to be touched and examined. They
are allowed to touch in a non-destructive manner. So no pulling knobs
off, unless it is something like a kitchen range where the knobs are
supposed to come off for cleaning or safety. No finger prints on TV
and computer screens, no fingers stuck inside anywhere. But they can
push buttons and turn dials to their hearts' content.

Both my children are very high energy but they also respect the word
"no". Ditto re my animals. Many dog owners have discipline problems
along the same lines, endlessly nagging their dogs to no good effect.

My dogs are well trained, although my expectations for my dogs differs
from my expectations for my daughters. In a theoretical world where
one of my dogs wanted to express independence, or ask why, I wouldn't
tolerate it -- the dog doesn't question, as the whole 'I'm the owner,
you're the dog' delineation will never change, and imo shouldn't ever
blur.

My kids respect *me*, but the blanket respect of 'no' is not a
constant (the DDs are 5 and 8), which may be a cultural difference
(contrasted with our relatives in Germany). My kids know I'm
disinclined to change my mind on a whim, but am open to their input
(and in the case of DD1, she often has the winning provocative
question of the day).

It isn't a Swiss vs American thing, it is a more vs less experienced
parent thing.

I'm not entirely convinced -- I believe that some cultural
expectations really do trickle down to immediate family dynamics and
group expectations of 'appropriate' children's behavior (and attire,
and interests). And my experience with rescued dogs makes me believe
that the variability between children is also apparent in the animal
world.

Caledonia

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...
Banty wrote:

Possibly, the more naturally quiet Swiss kids were the ones sitting, and more
rambunctious Swiss kids were being held or in strollers I mean, I truly
don't think the Swiss (or the Japanese, etc. etc.) are lacking in tempramental
variety in their kids. It's that, just like with car seats, certain strategies
are set in place firmly and early.
Actually, I think there is some evidence that there are
temperamental/personality traits that do vary somewhat with
race/culture/etc. Obviously, those are probably things like
sex differences, where the distributions overlap, but apparently
there are differences. They may not be genetic (may be due
to the environment in utero), but seem to be observable from
birth.

The *Swiss*? Would be different diet-wise from Americans how? Should we load
up on cheese and chocolate?? I'm skeptical, honestly.

I don't think diet is the likely culprit. There are
many other things that contribute to the environment in utero,
including mom's emotional reactions and external stimuli (sounds,
etc.).

Heck - *I'm* overstimulated at Best Buy I hate that place.
Well, yeah, me too. We avoid it like the plague.

My neighbor with three boys would call out to her boy to come when I was
visiting on the porch; he'd ignore her, then she'd look at me with this look and
hand gesture "see what I have to deal with??". One time I actually did tell her
"well, just go GET HIM"
I do agree that there are folks who seem bewildered that
their kids don't arrive under voice control. On the other hand,
it doesn't sound to me like the OP was expecting her child to
be under voice control and throwing up her hands when that didn't
work. I think she was just trying various strategies to
figure out what *would* work.

Nope. Just wouldn't go and *get* the kid. I've seen it elsewhere, too, like
the OP.

Wasn't commenting on your neighbor--was commenting on
the OP in this thread, who was clearly up and moving and clearly
said that she had tried to carry the child, who wouldn't stand for
it.

IIRC, she *did* start by picking the
child up, but the child wouldn't stay in her arms, leaving her
trying to manage the child on the loose or making a scene by
holding onto her. I'd have been in a similar situation with
my DD at 18 months if I didn't plan *really* well in advance
and bring along not only a stroller or some other restraint
device, but also toys/food/etc. to keep the child distracted
while in the stroller. And even with that preparation, I'd only
have slightly better than even odds of not having to take her
out of the store (hence the avoidance as the first order strategy ;-) ).
And if she got ornery in the store, I really would have to
consider whether it'd be more irritating if I spent some
moments trying to advise/distract/redirect or if I just grabbed
and ran, with DD likely kicking and screaming (which can be
rather spectacular). I don't know that the onlookers would have
been all that much happier with the latter strategy, depending
on how prolonged option 1 was.

I think if it were a particularly intractible situation, you would choose a
different venue. Right?

Well, life doesn't always afford all these choices.
If I had to go, I'd prepare the best I could and go. If I could
avoid, I'd avoid. Sometimes things blow up despite your best
efforts, and then you're between a rock and a hard place and you
have to choose between the quick and very noisy exit or the
slower and less noisy attempt to distract/redirect. When
you've got a difficult kid to deal with, you don't always have
predictable outcomes, and you can't sit at home and never venture
into public until you can guarantee that there will never be
an outburst despite your best preparations. You have to make the
best judgment calls you can, and then handle whatever comes up as
best you can. I just don't think there's any easy, pat answer
that creates a guarantee that you will never inconvenience anyone
else. And again IIRC, the OP was on vacation and not even on her
home turf (so preparation opportunities may have been limited) and
her child is very young (so they may just be learning about some
of these little personality traits, if they are in fact personality
traits and not the result of jet lag or an unfamiliar environment
or what have you).
The world ain't perfect. We all have an obligation to
try to minimize negative impacts on other people (and sitting on
your butt calling out to your child and giving up when that doesn't
work clearly doesn't constitute a serious effort in that direction),
but as far as I can tell, that's a far cry from the OP's situation,
where mom was trying hard and simply may have made a small error in
timing the hasty exit. After all, OP tried holding (didn't work),
tried hands on redirecting/distracting/advising (didn't work), and
then moved on to removal. Seems reasonable, with the only question
being whether the process moved along quickly enough or whether mom
could have predicted the situation in advance and laid in some
preventive measures. All in all, not too shabby a response for
a first time parent of a very young child, IMO.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"cjra" wrote in message
...
On Jan 7, 9:48 am, "Stephanie" wrote:
"cjra" wrote in message

...



On Jan 6, 2:48 pm, Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka
Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:

Possibly, the more naturally quiet Swiss kids were the ones
sitting,
and more
rambunctious Swiss kids were being held or in strollers I mean,
I
truly
don't think the Swiss (or the Japanese, etc. etc.) are lacking in
tempramental
variety in their kids. It's that, just like with car seats, certain
strategies
are set in place firmly and early.

Actually, I think there is some evidence that there are
temperamental/personality traits that do vary somewhat with
race/culture/etc. Obviously, those are probably things like
sex differences, where the distributions overlap, but apparently
there are differences. They may not be genetic (may be due
to the environment in utero), but seem to be observable from
birth.

The *Swiss*? Would be different diet-wise from Americans how? Should
we
load
up on cheese and chocolate?? I'm skeptical, honestly.

Heck - *I'm* overstimulated at Best Buy I hate that place.

Well, yeah, me too. We avoid it like the plague.

My neighbor with three boys would call out to her boy to come when
I
was
visiting on the porch; he'd ignore her, then she'd look at me with
this
look and
hand gesture "see what I have to deal with??". One time I actually
did
tell her
"well, just go GET HIM"

I do agree that there are folks who seem bewildered that
their kids don't arrive under voice control. On the other hand,
it doesn't sound to me like the OP was expecting her child to
be under voice control and throwing up her hands when that didn't
work. I think she was just trying various strategies to
figure out what *would* work.

Nope. Just wouldn't go and *get* the kid. I've seen it elsewhere,
too,
like
the OP.

Actually, as I stated I *did* go and get the kid, held her long enough
to calm her, but she was in her "I need to move and can't be confined"
stage. I didn't take her outside immediately - as I would have done at
home - because it was so cold outside.

If you have to leave the store because she feels the need to move at any
given moment, how do you get the shopping done? I actually know a set of
parents who "can't" go shopping with their kids. They *always* go
separately
to the store.

Until recently she's been really easy to shop with, except in places
like these. We are usually only in such places because DH wants to be,
so I leave him to do the shopping and DD and I go outside.

The grocery store has recently become problematic though, because she
wants to move. In CH it was easier because the carts are much smaller,
and she could walk pushing the cart and was happy (except the one time
i put her *in* the cart and she managed to opent he yoghurt and spill
it everywhere...fortunately DH was with me that time and could speak
to the staff as a local). Now we're back in TX, where the carts are
big, she can't push them (and it's too crowded), but she's fighting
sitting in them. I am entertaining her the whole time (I alsogive her
things to entertain her, but that doesn't always last). It's
exhausting.....

What I started doing a little before age 2 was to give my DD a shopping list
of a few items (pictures are available online if your kid isn't a
ridiculously early reader like mine is) of a half dozen or so things to look
for, usually divided so they're spaced out (tomatoes, bread, milk, cheerios,
cheese....), and she'd stay pretty occupied looking for these from the cart,
and be excited when she found one.

Now, at 3, what I often do is give her her own list and DH goes with her to
find those items and bring them back to me (one at a time), and meanwhile I
can get the full week's shopping done while she's "shopping". Except for the
occasional bag of "Allipops" or cookies which make it into the cart (with
DH's active collaboration), it works quite well. When she's alone with me,
she still does the list thing and walks with me, but has to stay in the
aisle that I'm in when she's shopping. She's not big for her age, but she's
been very clear that shopping carts pinch her legs and that she doesn't like
them. I don't shop at peak times or if she's in a bad mood if I can at all
avoid it-I'm more likely to ask DH to pick up takeout on the way home than
try to do a "few ingredients to make dinner" trip with a tired 3 yr old who
refused to take a nap but really needed one.

However, DD is a pretty calm child by nature, and really loves helping, so I
don't know that it would work so well for other toddlers.

What I started doing a little before age 2 was to give my DD a shopping
list
of a few items (pictures are available online if your kid isn't a
ridiculously early reader like mine is) of a half dozen or so things to
look
for, usually divided so they're spaced out (tomatoes, bread, milk,
cheerios,
cheese....), and she'd stay pretty occupied looking for these from the
cart,
and be excited when she found one.

Now, at 3, what I often do is give her her own list and DH goes with her
to
find those items and bring them back to me (one at a time), and meanwhile
I
can get the full week's shopping done while she's "shopping". Except for
the
occasional bag of "Allipops" or cookies which make it into the cart (with
DH's active collaboration), it works quite well. When she's alone with
me,
she still does the list thing and walks with me, but has to stay in the
aisle that I'm in when she's shopping. She's not big for her age, but
she's
been very clear that shopping carts pinch her legs and that she doesn't
like
them. I don't shop at peak times or if she's in a bad mood if I can at
all
avoid it-I'm more likely to ask DH to pick up takeout on the way home
than
try to do a "few ingredients to make dinner" trip with a tired 3 yr old
who
refused to take a nap but really needed one.

However, DD is a pretty calm child by nature, and really loves helping,
so I
don't know that it would work so well for other toddlers.

Hmmm, I like the idea of a list, but although I don't think DD is slow
developmentally, I'm having a hard time imagining her understanding
this much. I'm not sure she knows what a tomato is yet, for example.
We talk about it at the store "Where's the tomato? There it is!" but
she doesn't seem to have the cognitive skill to really get that yet.
Maybe she's a lot more behind than I thought.
At first, it was more like "I spy", where I'd pick things she knew, and put
them on the list in the order that I knew we'd go, so when we were in
produce, she'd look for bananas or whatever, and pretty soon she could tell
me where we had to go to find specific things. DD's always had a really good
spacial memory (she loves puzzles and maps so long as her limited fine motor
skills don't frustrate her too much), so this was really fun for her, and it
kept her busy. The best sections for this are the ones where things weren't
in cans or boxes, because it was easier to tell those apart, although she
picked out the Cheerios box pretty early.

DD is an early reader and got into naming things early as well, so maybe
she's just really advanced in this area, but from what I've seen toddlers
tend to get into play food around age 2, and if they can recognize a play
banana or a play carton of milk, I'd think they'd be able to recognize the
real thing and enjoy looking for it.

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...
Banty wrote:

OK, shoot me, but I've noticed that American moms just plain won't, just won't
won't won't, for some unexaplainable reason - - -

*pick the toddler up and just plain hold them so they don't get into trouble*.
American moms call, European moms go and get the kid. (I also note northern
Europeans are quieter than Americans about public behavior, maybe that's a
factor.)

You too! Why chase? Why *explain*? What's *with* all that stuff?

But cjra already said that she tried holding her daughter and her
daughter wouldn't stand for that. That seems to leave chasing as an option.

BTW, the reason for explaining is because it seems to be a good
*long-term* strategy in teaching children how to behave. Of course it's
not going to work in solving the immediate problem, but, apparently,
there is evidence that children whose parents' discipline strategy
included explanations of why they couldn't do such-and-such (along with
other strategies such as reasoning and redirection) develop more of an
internalised moral compass - i.e., instead of learning that they
shouldn't do something because they'll be punished if they do, they
learn that they shouldn't do something because it hurts others/might
damage property/whatever the reasons are why it's wrong. And they
become more likely to stick to these rules of behaviour even when they
don't think they're being watched. (I should add, as a disclaimer, that
I have not read the original studies but only books discussing them.)

[...]
Then, you'd be pre-strollerified and avoid that whole scenario, no?

Possibly. Or possibly she might have a child like my son, who at that
age could get out of his five-point safety harness almost as quickly as
I could do it up, climb out of the pushchair in another couple of
minutes, and be off. Back to the chasing. ;-) (Besides, the OP might
not have had a stroller available, since she was away from home.)


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:


Well, life doesn't always afford all these choices.
If I had to go, I'd prepare the best I could and go. If I could
avoid, I'd avoid. Sometimes things blow up despite your best
efforts, and then you're between a rock and a hard place and you
have to choose between the quick and very noisy exit or the
slower and less noisy attempt to distract/redirect. When
you've got a difficult kid to deal with, you don't always have
predictable outcomes, and you can't sit at home and never venture
into public until you can guarantee that there will never be
an outburst despite your best preparations. You have to make the
best judgment calls you can, and then handle whatever comes up as
best you can. I just don't think there's any easy, pat answer
that creates a guarantee that you will never inconvenience anyone
else. And again IIRC, the OP was on vacation and not even on her
home turf (so preparation opportunities may have been limited) and
her child is very young (so they may just be learning about some
of these little personality traits, if they are in fact personality
traits and not the result of jet lag or an unfamiliar environment
or what have you).
The world ain't perfect. We all have an obligation to
try to minimize negative impacts on other people (and sitting on
your butt calling out to your child and giving up when that doesn't
work clearly doesn't constitute a serious effort in that direction),
but as far as I can tell, that's a far cry from the OP's situation,
where mom was trying hard and simply may have made a small error in
timing the hasty exit. After all, OP tried holding (didn't work),
tried hands on redirecting/distracting/advising (didn't work), and
then moved on to removal. Seems reasonable, with the only question
being whether the process moved along quickly enough or whether mom
could have predicted the situation in advance and laid in some
preventive measures. All in all, not too shabby a response for
a first time parent of a very young child, IMO.


Yes yes yes sure sure sure.

That's what everyone says and fits in with expectations around here. And, yes,
there's truth to it.

But consider the case of using car seats. All of the above (kids with different
tempraments, parents doing the best they can, life not being so neat, blah blah
blah blah blah...) can be applied to whether or not a kid can be put into a car
seat.

But most of us treat *that* as a non-negotiable. Kid. Seat. Put. In. Stay.
Wail all you want. Period. And it works thereby.

I submit parents can and do treat other points of behavior and discipline with a
similar attitude, in some other cultures. As well as here - depends on the
family background and parent(s).

I clipped it by accident, but I can't imagine any physical difference between
Swiss women in their pregnancies that would make a difference in the tempraments
of their children vs. American children.

Banty