51 deaths ADHD drugs ...

In article m,
vernon wrote:

"David Wright" wrote in message
. com...
In article m,
vernon wrote:

"JanD" wrote in message
news:2NsHf.769297$_o.482080@attbi_s71...

"vernon wrote:

ALL diversions snipped
..
In article , Mark Probert
writes:
"Twenty-five people died suddenly and 54 others suffered serious
unexplained heart problems while taking stimulant drugs like
Ritalin
from 1999 through 2003, according to reports sent to federal drug
regulators."

AND???

All medications are life threatening.

So you keep claiming. Wrongly.

The reason they are on prescription is they are dangerous, not
because they are patented or have funny names.

Vernon, why don't you just admit that you don't have the faintest idea
why some drugs are prescription-only and some are over-the-counter?

Because you clearly don't.

I took the time to look at FDA's web site and the criteria have
nothing to with how "dangerous" the drugs are. Some prescription
drugs are much less hazardous than many OTC drugs or supplements.
Stuff is OTC if it's reasonably safe when used as directed and it's
for conditions that a normal person can self-diagnose.

Furthermore, many drugs migrate from being prescription to being OTC
over time, especially when the patents run out. You think that the
patent expiration suddenly makes them less dangerous?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

In article ,
john wrote:

"vernon" wrote in message
51 out of around 100,000 per year of miss-prescribed and errors is quite
insignificant.

unless it is your kid

it adds up

The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is
783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause
of death and injury in the United States. http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html

Garbage. It blames the medical system for deaths it had nothing to do
with, and some of the other numbers are crap.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
-- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

vernon wrote:
"Skeptic" wrote in message
news:wfwIf.799449$xm3.671146@attbi_s21...
"vernon" wrote in message
g.com...
"Bob Kaplow" wrote in message
news In article , Mark Probert
writes:
Damn, Bob, stop making sense.
Sorry about that.

APAP has one of the narrowest windows between "therapeutic" and "toxic"
of all medications. Several years ago, while I was in ICU after having
aspirated during a test, there was a girl in who was on life support
after ODing on APAP.
About a year ago I hurt my arm, and my doctor had me taking triple
Ibuprofen
3-4 times a day. The normal does is 1. He mentioned that at its normal
dose
tylenol is one of the safest products on the market, but at elevated
doses
it's deadly. In all his years of practice, he's never had someone OD on
pain
killers, or anything else. Except Tylenol.

Of course if Asperin were developed today, it would NEVER get FDA
approval,
even under prescription.

Ibuprofen, on the other hand is safe even at relatively high doses. But
ask
your doctor first.

Please find ONE ER that thinks Ibuprofen is safer than acetaminophen.
acetaminophen overdoses are more dangerous than ibuprofen overdoses due
their respective routes of metabolism.

Tell that to 99.99% of the hospitals.

Oh, yes, don't bother telling me it's those big bad Pharms and masters from
outer space forcing them to use acetaminophen rather than any alternative.
Like I said find one E.R. (Oh damn, I forget that you don't know what an
E.R. is.)

It is my understanding that in the "Analgesic Wars" the pharmaceutical
companies donate the meds, APAP, Ibuprofen, etc. to the hospitals in an
effort to be able to claim "Used by more hospitals in Podunk Junction..."

It has nothing to do with safety.

Peter Bowditch wrote:
Mark Probert wrote:

vernon wrote:
"Skeptic" wrote in message
news:AsoIf.775670$_o.151292@attbi_s71...
The articles begs the question... what is the incidence of sudden,
unexplained death in the general population, not taking any medications.


WAAAAYYYYY higher than that.
Good question.
Actually, it is the single most important question. If the general
population who are not medicated have similar rates, then this is a
spurious finding with no meaning. When I mentioned the stories of the
kids we know who similarly died, this was my implied point.


When Viagra was being trialled the alternuts started shrieking about the number of men who
died during the test. Pfizer finally had to point out that if you took any group of
350,000 men over the age of 55 who were suffering from circulation and cardiac problems
you would expect some of them to die in the first three years. The number of trial
participants who died was smaller than the average for a similar untreated sample.

The Viagra patients died happier.

Mark Probert wrote:
Peter Bowditch wrote:

Mark Probert wrote:

vernon wrote:

"Skeptic" wrote in message
news:AsoIf.775670$_o.151292@attbi_s71...

The articles begs the question... what is the incidence of sudden,
unexplained death in the general population, not taking any
medications.


WAAAAYYYYY higher than that.
Good question.

Actually, it is the single most important question. If the general
population who are not medicated have similar rates, then this is a
spurious finding with no meaning. When I mentioned the stories of the
kids we know who similarly died, this was my implied point.


When Viagra was being trialled the alternuts started shrieking about
the number of men who
died during the test. Pfizer finally had to point out that if you took
any group of
350,000 men over the age of 55 who were suffering from circulation and
cardiac problems
you would expect some of them to die in the first three years. The
number of trial
participants who died was smaller than the average for a similar
untreated sample.


The Viagra patients died happier.

And surely in heaven now, cause they died with the name of the Lord on
their lips:
"Oh God, oh God, I'm ......"

"Peter Bowditch" wrote in message
...
"vernon" wrote:


"Skeptic" wrote in message
news:wfwIf.799449$xm3.671146@attbi_s21...

"vernon" wrote in message
g.com...

"Bob Kaplow" wrote in message
news In article , Mark Probert
writes:
Damn, Bob, stop making sense.

Sorry about that.

APAP has one of the narrowest windows between "therapeutic" and
"toxic"
of all medications. Several years ago, while I was in ICU after
having
aspirated during a test, there was a girl in who was on life support
after ODing on APAP.

About a year ago I hurt my arm, and my doctor had me taking triple
Ibuprofen
3-4 times a day. The normal does is 1. He mentioned that at its normal
dose
tylenol is one of the safest products on the market, but at elevated
doses
it's deadly. In all his years of practice, he's never had someone OD
on
pain
killers, or anything else. Except Tylenol.

Of course if Asperin were developed today, it would NEVER get FDA
approval,
even under prescription.

Ibuprofen, on the other hand is safe even at relatively high doses.
But
ask
your doctor first.


Please find ONE ER that thinks Ibuprofen is safer than acetaminophen.

acetaminophen overdoses are more dangerous than ibuprofen overdoses due
their respective routes of metabolism.

Tell that to 99.99% of the hospitals.

Oh, yes, don't bother telling me it's those big bad Pharms and masters
from
outer space forcing them to use acetaminophen rather than any alternative.
Like I said find one E.R. (Oh damn, I forget that you don't know what an
E.R. is.)


Westmead, near my place.



What is their first choice for pain relief?

"Mark Probert" wrote in message
...
vernon wrote:
"Skeptic" wrote in message
news:wfwIf.799449$xm3.671146@attbi_s21...
"vernon" wrote in message
g.com...
"Bob Kaplow" wrote in message
news In article , Mark Probert
writes:
Damn, Bob, stop making sense.
Sorry about that.

APAP has one of the narrowest windows between "therapeutic" and
"toxic"
of all medications. Several years ago, while I was in ICU after
having
aspirated during a test, there was a girl in who was on life support
after ODing on APAP.
About a year ago I hurt my arm, and my doctor had me taking triple
Ibuprofen
3-4 times a day. The normal does is 1. He mentioned that at its normal
dose
tylenol is one of the safest products on the market, but at elevated
doses
it's deadly. In all his years of practice, he's never had someone OD
on pain
killers, or anything else. Except Tylenol.

Of course if Asperin were developed today, it would NEVER get FDA
approval,
even under prescription.

Ibuprofen, on the other hand is safe even at relatively high doses.
But ask
your doctor first.

Please find ONE ER that thinks Ibuprofen is safer than acetaminophen.
acetaminophen overdoses are more dangerous than ibuprofen overdoses due
their respective routes of metabolism.

Tell that to 99.99% of the hospitals.

Oh, yes, don't bother telling me it's those big bad Pharms and masters
from outer space forcing them to use acetaminophen rather than any
alternative.
Like I said find one E.R. (Oh damn, I forget that you don't know what an
E.R. is.)

It is my understanding that in the "Analgesic Wars" the pharmaceutical
companies donate the meds, APAP, Ibuprofen, etc. to the hospitals in an
effort to be able to claim "Used by more hospitals in Podunk Junction..."

It has nothing to do with safety.

Yes, they get almost all free and do what you say.
Doctor's worried about their patients are careful.
When there is an unknown, they very seldom give aspirin. When they do, the
mfg can say 9 out of 10 doctors use bufferin. This gives the impression
that it is 9 out of 10 pain relievers rather than 9 out of 10 aspirin doses.

The basics of decision are
Pain
inflammation or not
circulation problems with absolutely no bleeding and no probability of
surgery in the next three days.
I don't care give the patient the first thing you find.

"Mark Probert" wrote in message
...
Peter Bowditch wrote:
Mark Probert wrote:

vernon wrote:
"Skeptic" wrote in message
news:AsoIf.775670$_o.151292@attbi_s71...
The articles begs the question... what is the incidence of sudden,
unexplained death in the general population, not taking any
medications.


WAAAAYYYYY higher than that.
Good question.
Actually, it is the single most important question. If the general
population who are not medicated have similar rates, then this is a
spurious finding with no meaning. When I mentioned the stories of the
kids we know who similarly died, this was my implied point.


When Viagra was being trialled the alternuts started shrieking about the
number of men who
died during the test. Pfizer finally had to point out that if you took
any group of
350,000 men over the age of 55 who were suffering from circulation and
cardiac problems
you would expect some of them to die in the first three years. The number
of trial
participants who died was smaller than the average for a similar
untreated sample.

The Viagra patients died happier.


It also gave the partner bragging rights.

"David Wright" wrote in message
. ..
In article m,
vernon wrote:

"David Wright" wrote in message
.com...
In article m,
vernon wrote:

"JanD" wrote in message
news:2NsHf.769297$_o.482080@attbi_s71...

"vernon wrote:

ALL diversions snipped
..
In article , Mark Probert
writes:
"Twenty-five people died suddenly and 54 others suffered serious
unexplained heart problems while taking stimulant drugs like
Ritalin
from 1999 through 2003, according to reports sent to federal drug
regulators."

AND???

All medications are life threatening.

So you keep claiming. Wrongly.

The reason they are on prescription is they are dangerous, not
because they are patented or have funny names.

Vernon, why don't you just admit that you don't have the faintest idea
why some drugs are prescription-only and some are over-the-counter?

Because you clearly don't.

I took the time to look at FDA's web site and the criteria have
nothing to with how "dangerous" the drugs are. Some prescription
drugs are much less hazardous than many OTC drugs or supplements.
Stuff is OTC if it's reasonably safe when used as directed and it's
for conditions that a normal person can self-diagnose.

Furthermore, many drugs migrate from being prescription to being OTC
over time, especially when the patents run out. You think that the
patent expiration suddenly makes them less dangerous?


You said absolutely nothing.
You didn't look it up.
Because there are MORE dangerous things has no bearing.
Because time shows that people can and do control themselves with certain
prescriptions has no bearing.

IT IS NOT some conspiracy as some total idiots claim.

Their web site and information declares that they try to determine that a
medication is not too dangerous and if unknown or dangerous LIMIT to
prescription only.

IF a product has been on the market for any long period of time and it is
assumed the public is aware of the dangers, it remains on the OPEN market.
If a product such as Ephedrine is miss used, it comes under control

END RESULT

Control has a reason.
The reason is not payoff.
The reason is not that the med is safe.
The reason is that the medication is unusually unsafe.

Next time try to get beyond the URL.

Next time have an inane discussion with someone who has never dealt directly
with the FDA.

Now if you say that the FDA is nearly useless, you are correct. BUT
The reason for control in their mind is health control, not Pharm control.

Political or industry pressure is there, especially on general topics.

Example; new labeling allows labels to say ZERO transfats or partially
hydrogenated oils if the content is less that 0.5 g per serving. Many
packages of 5 servings are eaten in one serving. That regulation is an
outright sellout. Many people do not even want the 0.5 of hydrogenated
oils.

Now, IF, big IF they were doing their job as assigned, they would do the
same thing as with cigarettes and alcohol. They would require a warning
label no matter how small the amount. You can mess with those terrible
smokers and alcoholics but don't mess with my banana cream pie.

"David Wright" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
john wrote:

"vernon" wrote in message
51 out of around 100,000 per year of miss-prescribed and errors is quite
insignificant.

unless it is your kid

it adds up

The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is
783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading
cause
of death and injury in the United States. http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html

Garbage. It blames the medical system for deaths it had nothing to do
with, and some of the other numbers are crap.


The latest information directly from the diabetic and heart associations
(medical doctors association) puts the figure of 19% due to miss diagnosis
and miss application of medications. It is significant but not the leading.
It is public but internal information to each other to get on wagon and keep
up with the latest treatments and information.