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Terrible 5's?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 10th 03, 03:38 PM
SarahH
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Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?

Ali's Daddie wrote:


1. Time Outs - She sits on the couch with her hands in her lap. She is
allowed to watch tv, but is not allowed to talk or cry or play.


You dont let her cry???? Why on earth not?? I dont often jump on someone
in a judgemental fashion but I think that is a truely cruel thing to do
to a child. You are teaching her to turn her emotions inwards, not good
now and not good when she is an adult. A jolly good way of giving her
stress related illnesses as an adult. Shes not a vulcan, shes a human child.
Sarah H

  #12  
Old December 10th 03, 06:00 PM
Denise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up


"Stephanie and Tim"
I guess I would find what she DOES care about and make sure she gets

plenty
of that. And I would look at why she is doing what she is doing, and try

to
achieve solutions from that. She likes to play in the water... Make sure

she
gets as much playing in the water as she wants, no door locking required.
Make sure she gets messy play time, if that is what she needs. Perhaps a
sand and water table in a safe place to make a mess?

Also, make sure she is not acting up to get attention because she is not
getting enough positive attention. Kids need attention. If they do not get
it in positive ways; reading together, craft time together, playground

where
you are playing with them, they will demand it in nonpositive ways...

actin
out in ways they know will get a heavy hand from you. Also, kids need
PARENTAL attention. So even if they are getting gobs with a nanny or at a
daycare, they still need gobs from Mom and Dad.

It is hard to know your situation from your post, I am guessing at a few
things to look at.

Also, at the age of 3, I have next to never punished my son. (I say next

to
never because I suspect I have done it and cannot remember. Never say
"never.") Punishment is highly over rated as a motivator for permanent
change. Just like any problme you are trying to solve, you have to
understand the underlying cause of the problem before you can determine

the
solution. WHY is your dd pitching the glitter on the floor? If it is

because
she likes texture play then punushing her will do no good. Providing
playtime with different textures will do permanent good. If she is doing

it
because she has an independant spirit, then punishing will do no good

unless
you show her an appropriate way to do what she wants for herself, like
asking Mom if she can have craft time... KNow what I mean?



My oldest does get time to play with water/crafts, pretty much anything she
wants, as long as she asks and usually when my middle DD is at school.
I believe she gets enough positive attention from me, but everyone can use
more, right? So I'll try that.
My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it
without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she
pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put
all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she
would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask
her to clean up she throws a tantrum.




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  #13  
Old December 10th 03, 11:41 PM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise"
wrote:

My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it
without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she
pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put
all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she
would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I ask
her to clean up she throws a tantrum.


Think about what you have taught her with punishment.

There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly
when they are punished frequently)

1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't
know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority,
so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and
does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority
may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe
injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse.

2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question
whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this
case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating
a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's
spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying
leaders who insist that s/he should harm others.

3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to
do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done.
In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever
crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch
him or her.

This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but
imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can,
enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework
you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your
child is older.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #14  
Old December 10th 03, 11:50 PM
Denise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up


"toto" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise"
wrote:

My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it
without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she
pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put
all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she
would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I

ask
her to clean up she throws a tantrum.


Think about what you have taught her with punishment.

There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly
when they are punished frequently)

1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't
know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority,
so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and
does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority
may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe
injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse.

2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question
whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this
case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating
a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's
spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying
leaders who insist that s/he should harm others.

3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to
do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done.
In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever
crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch
him or her.

This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but
imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can,
enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework
you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your
child is older.




Egads! Time outs are destructive behavior? We're talking about a child who
has been spanked, maybe 2 times in her life, and who's time outs consist of
4 minutes on her bed with her hands folded on her lap. I could understand
if I was beating her every time she did something I didn't approve of, but
that's hardly the case. I'm hoping the sneakiness is just a phase, its
hardly something I have caused by "breaking her spirit."




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  #15  
Old December 11th 03, 07:08 PM
Stephanie and Tim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up


"Denise" wrote in message
...

"Stephanie and Tim"
I guess I would find what she DOES care about and make sure she gets

plenty
of that. And I would look at why she is doing what she is doing, and try

to
achieve solutions from that. She likes to play in the water... Make sure

she
gets as much playing in the water as she wants, no door locking

required.
Make sure she gets messy play time, if that is what she needs. Perhaps a
sand and water table in a safe place to make a mess?

Also, make sure she is not acting up to get attention because she is not
getting enough positive attention. Kids need attention. If they do not

get
it in positive ways; reading together, craft time together, playground

where
you are playing with them, they will demand it in nonpositive ways...

actin
out in ways they know will get a heavy hand from you. Also, kids need
PARENTAL attention. So even if they are getting gobs with a nanny or at

a
daycare, they still need gobs from Mom and Dad.

It is hard to know your situation from your post, I am guessing at a few
things to look at.

Also, at the age of 3, I have next to never punished my son. (I say next

to
never because I suspect I have done it and cannot remember. Never say
"never.") Punishment is highly over rated as a motivator for permanent
change. Just like any problme you are trying to solve, you have to
understand the underlying cause of the problem before you can determine

the
solution. WHY is your dd pitching the glitter on the floor? If it is

because
she likes texture play then punushing her will do no good. Providing
playtime with different textures will do permanent good. If she is doing

it
because she has an independant spirit, then punishing will do no good

unless
you show her an appropriate way to do what she wants for herself, like
asking Mom if she can have craft time... KNow what I mean?



My oldest does get time to play with water/crafts, pretty much anything

she
wants, as long as she asks and usually when my middle DD is at school.
I believe she gets enough positive attention from me, but everyone can use
more, right? So I'll try that.
My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it
without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she
pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put
all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if she
would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I

ask
her to clean up she throws a tantrum.


From your post, I am having a hard time envisioning the scene from your
child's point of view. You say she is becoming "sneaky." If, from HER
perspective, she is indeed sneaking, then it must be because she cannot get
what she wants through you. She has to go around you. Now don't get me
wrong, kids do not need to have all wants gratified immediately with a
parent a wild yesman. But what they need is consistent expectations about
how and when their wants will be satisfied and a clear understanding, with
consistency, of what will not ever be allowed and why. Very very simple why.

Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and
don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example,
don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on
the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or
do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I
will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him
truly he cannot do something.

So I can see the problems that YOU are having. I am not understanding what
problem SHE is having. WHY did she block the door? If I had an answer to
that, I could possibly recommend a solution. And if you do not know why,
then you probably ought to ask her when she does something why she did it.

Just some thoughts.

S


  #16  
Old December 11th 03, 07:11 PM
Stephanie and Tim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up


"Denise" wrote in message
...

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise"
wrote:

My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just that she does it
without asking. She's become very sneaky. Last night at bed time, she
pulled her bed out from the wall (the bottom bunk is on coasters) and

put
all her toys behind it so I couldn't open her bedroom door. Even if

she
would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me so much, but when I

ask
her to clean up she throws a tantrum.


Think about what you have taught her with punishment.

There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly
when they are punished frequently)

1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't
know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority,
so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and
does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority
may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe
injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse.

2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question
whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this
case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating
a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's
spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying
leaders who insist that s/he should harm others.

3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to
do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done.
In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever
crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch
him or her.

This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but
imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can,
enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework
you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your
child is older.




Egads! Time outs are destructive behavior? We're talking about a child

who
has been spanked, maybe 2 times in her life, and who's time outs consist

of
4 minutes on her bed with her hands folded on her lap. I could understand
if I was beating her every time she did something I didn't approve of, but
that's hardly the case. I'm hoping the sneakiness is just a phase, its
hardly something I have caused by "breaking her spirit."




I did not read Dorothy's post entirely. But many folks perceive that time
outs should not be used for punishment but for recollecting one's composure.
Some folks, myself included when my ears are not steaming, do not think that
there is much room, if any, for teaching a child. Using one time out will
not break anyone's spirit. But over time, using only or mostly punitive
techniques will fail to teach good life lessons and may eventually break a
child's spirit. Especially if they get punished enough to view themselves as
a bad kid. I can recommed a book called "Positive Discipline." They come in
different ages. I have the one for preschoolers. I like it.

S


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-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----



  #17  
Old December 11th 03, 11:08 PM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:08:06 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim"
wrote:

Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and
don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example,
don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on
the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or
do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I
will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him
truly he cannot do something.


It seems to work well for kids if you look at their need (in this case
the need to draw) and fulfill it in some acceptable way. Most kids
want to cooperate with you.

In our preschool, we also find that the more choices we allow, the
better kids are at obeying when we must say no. And the more
positive words we use, the easier it is for them to accept those
few negatives we have to use.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #18  
Old December 11th 03, 11:22 PM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:11:34 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim"
wrote:


"Denise" wrote in message
...

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:00:55 -0800, "Denise"
wrote:

My problem isn't so much with the mess she makes, just
that she does it without asking. She's become very sneaky.
Last night at bed time, she pulled her bed out from the wall
(the bottom bunk is on coasters) and put all her toys behind
it so I couldn't open her bedroom door.


Btw, this isn't sneaky. It may be rebellious, but how you can call
it sneaky, I don't know since it is quite obvious that the parent can
see what was being done.

Even if she would clean up after herself, it wouldn't bother me
so much, but when I ask her to clean up she throws a tantrum.


Btw, do you ask her to clean up or do you *tell* her. There is a big
difference. If you do want her to help clean up, try making it fun.

Also, get organized to make it easier. Put labels on the boxes or
shelves. Don't have so many toys that it is impossible to clean
because it is overwhelming.

Try putting on a CD of favorite music and say *I bet we can clean
up before the music is done.* Or say *I'll get all the blue toys,
can you get all the red ones?* Or say *I can get all the blocks
while you get all the dolls.*

Think about what you have taught her with punishment.

There are three outcomes when children are punished (particularly
when they are punished frequently)

1. The child becomes a *rebel* without a cause. S/he doesn't
know how to distinguish when it is a good idea to obey authority,
so s/he rebels against all authority. S/he becomes defiant and
does what s/he wishes to do regardless of what the authority
may do to him or her. This is the child at risk of death or severe
injury as punishment escalates into torture and abuse.

2. The child becomes submissive. S/he obeys without question
whenever an authority gives him or her a rule to obey. In this
case, the parents may think they have succeeded in creating
a *good child,* but what has been done is to break the child's
spirit. This child is at risk of becoming a drone and of obeying
leaders who insist that s/he should harm others.

3. The child becomes sneaky. S/he does what s/he wants to
do when s/he believes that you will not find out what s/he has done.
In this case, the child remains self-centered and will do whatever
crime is satisfying as long as s/he believes that no one will catch
him or her.

This is not easy to change once the pattern has been set, but
imho, you would be wise to attempt a total change. If you can,
enroll in a Parent Effectiveness Training class and do the homework
you need to change the destructive pattern you have set before your
child is older.



Egads! Time outs are destructive behavior? We're talking about
a child who has been spanked, maybe 2 times in her life, and who's
time outs consist of 4 minutes on her bed with her hands folded on
her lap.


In many cases, children prefer a spanking to sitting still for 4
minutes. Aside from that, time outs used as punishment don't
teach anything at all. You may think s/he is learning to think about
what she did wrong, but it is more likely she is thinking about how
much she resents your control or daydreaming about something
entirely different.

I could understand if I was beating her every time she did
something I didn't approve of, but that's hardly the case. I'm
hoping the sneakiness is just a phase, its hardly something I
have caused by "breaking her spirit."

You mistake the idea. You haven't broken her spirit, but you have
caused the rebelliousness because you focus on the negative.

She needs positive attention and positive discipline. It sounds
to me like she wants control of her own life and that you are
trying too hard to control her behavior. Give her positive
alternatives. Say yes MUCH more than you say no. Give her
choices whenever you can.

I did not read Dorothy's post entirely. But many folks perceive that time
outs should not be used for punishment but for recollecting one's composure.


Time-outs when one needs to calm down are not the same as time-outs
used to punish a child for *misbehavior.* And time-outs should be
modeled by the adult when s/he needs to regain composure after being
angry about things.

Some folks, myself included when my ears are not steaming, do
not think that there is much room, if any, for teaching a child.


Agreed. You cannot teach when *you* are angry. You also cannot
teach a child who is angry because the focus is on the emotion to the
exclusion of any lesson that needs to be learned.

Using one time out will not break anyone's spirit. But over time,
using only or mostly punitive techniques will fail to teach good life
lessons and may eventually break a child's spirit.


Everything mentioned in the OP's post focused on the negative and
on punishment. If you continue to focus this way you are likely to
create a rebel or a drone or a sneaky person.

Especially if they get punished enough to view themselves as
a bad kid. I can recommed a book called "Positive Discipline."
They come in different ages. I have the one for preschoolers.
I like it.

S

I agree that those are good books.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
  #19  
Old December 11th 03, 11:47 PM
LisaBell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:08:14 -0600, toto
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:08:06 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim"
wrote:

Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and
don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example,
don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on
the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or
do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I
will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him
truly he cannot do something.


It seems to work well for kids if you look at their need (in this case
the need to draw) and fulfill it in some acceptable way. Most kids
want to cooperate with you.


This strategy worked perfectly for my eldest, but not at all for my
youngest. She seems to have a *need* to draw only in places where she
isn't supposed to. She still draws on herself occasionally, and on the
walls, carpets and furniture if we leave pens out for too long (she's
nearing 4). She thinks the whole thing is hilarious however I say
*draw on paper!* and seems to feel that cooperating would be just too
stuffy and boring.

--Lisabell



  #20  
Old December 12th 03, 02:22 AM
toto
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Terrible 5's?/General Follow up

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:47:33 +0200, LisaBell
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:08:14 -0600, toto
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:08:06 GMT, "Stephanie and Tim"
wrote:

Take DH for example. He is a bit of a NO guy. Everything is no this and
don't that. DS is not terribly cooperative around him. Take this example,
don't draw on the walls. Period. Compare that to Honey, please don't draw on
the walls, would you like a piece of paper? (Yes) Can you get it yourself or
do you need help to get it? Since, over time, he has come to expect that I
will help him get what he wants, he does not pitch a fit when I tell him
truly he cannot do something.


It seems to work well for kids if you look at their need (in this case
the need to draw) and fulfill it in some acceptable way. Most kids
want to cooperate with you.


This strategy worked perfectly for my eldest, but not at all for my
youngest. She seems to have a *need* to draw only in places where she
isn't supposed to. She still draws on herself occasionally, and on the
walls, carpets and furniture if we leave pens out for too long (she's
nearing 4). She thinks the whole thing is hilarious however I say
*draw on paper!* and seems to feel that cooperating would be just too
stuffy and boring.

Seems to me she is getting something else out of the interaction then
and you need to find out what it is.

Perhaps she needs something messier (try paint or playdough or
let her mess with shaving cream on the table or paint with pudding)
Or needs to be standing up (get an easel?) Try some different
artistic activities that may keep her more interested? But supervise
closely. It may be that you cannot leave her alone with drawing
materials yet. Four is pretty young for that actually since the
temptations are many to see what might happen if you draw on
other surfaces. You might try making rubbings (sandpaper under
the paper gives a nice texture) or using finger paints on smooth
surfaces or getting some wallpaper sample books she can use
to draw on.

Perhaps she sees it as her *job* not to cooperate because her
older sibling does that well and she is defining her place in the
family based on *not* being like that sibling. My dd would never
do much with math because her brother was so good at it and
my ds never did art because that was his sister's thing.

--Lisabell



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
 




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