For those who claim I always give references for Dan... Daycare lying to parents

The entire thread so far, crossposted.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...6cc66c/?hl=en#

Daycare lying to parents

Newsgroups: alt.support.child-protective-services
From: "cs23" Date: 22 Jan 2007 15:49:33 -0800

Hi, I'm not sure if this would be the place to post this question. Hope

I can get some feedback.

I work at a daycare, and there's been a lot of improper conduct by the
administration. A little boy cracked his head and had to get stitches
when another kid attacked him. The parents were told that he fell. A
little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again.

This is a church-run daycare and my understanding is that they are Not
under the same regulations as other childcare services. One of the
supervisors did complain to the church a while back about something
similar, and they did not believe her. All of this bothers me of
course, but I dont know if there's anything I can do without losing my
job. I wanna tell one of the parents that I know well about one recent
incident, but don't want to lose my job. And am not sure it would
change anything in the future anyway. What would you do?

From: "Firemonkey" Date: 22 Jan 2007 16:20:16 -0800

I would not leave any child in danger. Call the child abuse hotline.
They will connect you with who ever you need to speakwith and I'm sure

you do not have to tell them who you are, maybe call from a pay phone.
You know the danger now you must protect those children. A paycheck
will not mean much if a child gets run over in the street and you could

have prevented it. Do the right thing. Good Luck!
firemonkey

From: "Greegor" Date: 22 Jan 2007 16:27:29 -0800

Why is a church run daycare enterprise engaging in dishonesty?

I suggest you obtain a good lawyer.
Failing to report what actually took place to Child Protection
would be a violation on your part.
An employer who retaliates for whistle blowing is
taking a huge risk.

In re the boy with stitches: What cause does the doctor records state?

Telling lies to the doctor could get some people in big trouble.
Telling the truth to the doctor but telling parents otherwise
could also get somebody in big trouble.

You REALLY need to get a good lawyer because
if you know these things and don't report them,
eventually a kid might die or the coverup might
be exposed and you could be seen as "in on the coverup".

I can hardly wait to see what my detractors say about this!

Good luck with the weight loss CassieNova!

Greg Hanson in Cedar Rapids Iowa


From: "0:-" (AKA Kane, AKA Donald L. Fisher) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007
19:29:34 -0800

Fire yourself. Now. Then two seconds later ...

Pick up the phone, dial 911 before their "luck" runs out. You can be
sure eventually some child will be killed with this kind of
supervision.

You are ethically remiss and if a professional legally so if you do not

call, now.

I do admire your willingness to seek some advice though. Many people
simply turn their backs and mutter, NOMB.

Your job, a child's life.

I don't think there is much to consider. You can get another. What can
a
dead child do?

It's often forgotten by folks that see abuse: if YOU don't call the
child isn't going to either.

Start job hunting, now, just after you make the call to 911.

Forgive my posting personally to you as well. But I'm not willing to
have a child's injury or death on my head for NOT responding to you
immediately.

Ignore the CPS haters, and anti government twits that will likely try
a,
"it's none of your business, busybody," vicious insulting attack. They
have been responsible for a lot of child abuse by both direct means and

by proxie.

Go for it, cassienova23

You will sleep better, even if you have to job hunt.

Kane

From: "0:-" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:50:44 -0800

I thought long and hard before opening this reply to the daycare
problem
post.

I asked myself, just what level of drivel, diversion, and self serving
bull**** attacks can I expect.

You surpassed my estimate, Greg.

Greegor wrote:
Why is a church run daycare enterprise engaging in dishonesty?

Does it matter why if children are being injured?

I suggest you obtain a good lawyer.

And mark time?

The poster already is risking loss of income. What possible use could a

lawyer be to someone that is witnessing abuse?

Failing to report what actually took place to Child Protection
would be a violation on your part.

Actually you can simply call the police. I kind of like that part.

An employer who retaliates for whistle blowing is
taking a huge risk.

Not under certain circumstances.

You seem, about once a month, to call Doug a liar.

He pointed out that whistle blowers are at high risk. And government
workers have more protection than private sector folks. Unless the
poster has a powerful union.

I've not ever heard of any church worker's union.

In re the boy with stitches: What cause does the doctor records state?

How would the poster have access to records that federal law (HIPPA)
her
seeing could result in fines of up to and even in excess of $100,000
and
up to a year on jail?

Telling lies to the doctor could get some people in big trouble.

What has this to do with the poster's question? No doctor's or health
care professionals were mentioned.

Telling the truth to the doctor but telling parents otherwise
could also get somebody in big trouble.

And while we wait for an investigation of the kind you have called
witch
hunting, will the children be safe?

Until someone discloses these acts what do you suppose will happen to
the children.

You REALLY need to get a good lawyer because
if you know these things and don't report them,
eventually a kid might die or the coverup might
be exposed and you could be seen as "in on the coverup".

The poster IS in on the cover up right now. He or she simply doesn't
realize it. I'll assume "she," is a mandated reporter in most states.

To NOT report is a criminal offense. Likely she has not been told this
by her employers but even volunteers are required to report.

I can hardly wait to see what my detractors say about this!

Oh, you mean you were trying to make as many jackass statements to
provoke us. Gee, how smart...dancing in the blood of children.

Good luck with the weight loss CassieNova!

Very clever if you were in fact being trolled.

Very stupid if you weren't, and these are the true events taking place
somewhere.

Is the real world that far away from your catatonia?

Greg Hanson in Cedar Rapids Iowa ...

As usual.

From: "Greegor" Date: 22 Jan 2007 20:59:23 -0800

I would add that if she is making any of this up, that false
reporting can have some repercussions. Rare, but possible.

If it's just rumours or innuendo, it can backfire.
The lawyer could indeed protect her interests
as far as retaliatory firing, etc.

From: "Greegor" Date: 22 Jan 2007 21:08:11 -0800

Kane wrote
Ignore the CPS haters, and anti government twits that will likely try a,
"it's none of your business, busybody," vicious insulting attack. They
have been responsible for a lot of child abuse by both direct means and
by proxie.

I advised her to obtain a good lawyer and report it.

After I posted that, Kane STILL PREDICTS others would
say things they did not say!

Kane the LOBBYIST for the Child Protection INDUSTRY is
of course so eager for the report he wants you to have
no lawyer. Do you smell a rat in that advice?

What the hell is Child Abuse by proxie???

Please acknowledge you read the answers Cassie.

From: "Dragon's Girl" (AKA Betty Jean Hammond Wirsen) Date: 22 Jan
2007 21:18:14 -0800

First of all, it does not really matter, I assume in ANY state, whether

or not this is a church run daycare. A daycare is a daycare is a
daycare and is likely to be licensed by the state...
That being said, if your daycare IS licensed by the state, and you work

there, you are a mandated reporter.
That means if you know of child abuse or neglect occurring within the
daycare of the children, you are REQUIRED by law to report it to the
child abuse hotline. ( some people may be mandated and not even know
it )

Let's talk for a second about what that means to you.

If you do not report it, and it is later uncovered someone will likely
try to pass the buck of fault to you and/or your coworkers. If a child

is seriously injured or dies that means that YOU and your coworkers are

legally responsible for that death or injury by negligence.

That can mean jail time, it can also mean lawsuits. If you are worried

about losing your job then I assume that you are not 'well to do' and
cannot afford to have everything you own ripped from you in a lawsuit.
Couple that with attorney fees and up the creek without a paddle you
go.

Now that we've talked about the legal side of it, let's talk about the
personal side:

Can you live with yourself if your inaction would indirectly cause the
death of a child? Serious injury? How would your conscience fair
knowing that a child, or even more than one, have suffered abuse and/or

neglect because you did not do your job? Like it or not, your job IS
child protection, and failing to report is not doing your job.

There are many jobs out there in most communities, and finding another
won't be hard for you, but the hardship that could be part of your life

weighed against making a report may be too hard for you to live with.
Couple that with the guilt that you may feel later on if something
awful were to happen and you must realize that your life would,
essentially, be ****.

Get out now.

If this is what you see in your work place then your job SUCKS, and if
you have enough morals to write here for help then you must not feel
right about what you are seeing and don't like your job, or those
aspects of it anyway.

Make the report to the state. Let them take care of it. if the
daycare closes you can always fall back on unemployment until you find
a new job.

I bet you will sleep better at night too.

Betty

From: "Dragon's Girl" Date: 22 Jan 2007 23:46:47 -0800

Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
Ignore the CPS haters, and anti government twits that will likely try a,
"it's none of your business, busybody," vicious insulting attack. They
have been responsible for a lot of child abuse by both direct means and
by proxie.

I advised her to obtain a good lawyer and report it.

After I posted that, Kane STILL PREDICTS others would
say things they did not say!

Kinda like you saying I was in a nut house?
Idiot.

Kane the LOBBYIST for the Child Protection INDUSTRY is
of course so eager for the report he wants you to have
no lawyer. Do you smell a rat in that advice?

I read both of Kane's posts and saw nowhere that he advised against an
attorney for this person.
He mainly advised to report the abuse and never made mention of an
attorney.
I'm sure he knows that this person could just traipse right on over to
her attorney's office and make the call from there with his/her
approval..I could, why couldn't she?

What the hell is Child Abuse by proxie???

Indirect abuse...like standing around and watching while a child is
abused and doing not a damned thing about it.
But, you knew that, didn't you?

Please acknowledge you read the answers Cassie.

Why would she do that? So you can babble on some more about Kane (or
hell, anyone else for that matter) not wanting her to have an attorney
and being a big bad old boogie man?
Rabid or rancid, I can't decide.

From: "cs23" Date: 23 Jan 2007 06:19:23 -0800

I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year. As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids. My moral problem was the lying to parents.
Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe, I just think the parents

whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the
kids.

From: "Dan Sullivan" Date: 23 Jan 2007 06:46:00 -0800

cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.


" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

From: "Dragon's Girl" Date: 23 Jan 2007 08:43:06 -0800

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Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.

" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

Well, she did call one of the parents and inform them so that they
could make their own decisions.

That, people, is the reason my kids never went to day care.

Betty

From: "Dan Sullivan" Date: 23 Jan 2007 08:48:47 -0800

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Dragon's Girl wrote:
Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.

" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

Well, she did call one of the parents and inform them so that they
could make their own decisions.

One out of how many?

This woman is on the right track... but one isn't enough.

ALL the parents have to know the truth.

And the caregivers who said to keep the truth from the parents should
be given their pink slips.

From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:07:26 -0800

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Dragon's Girl wrote:
Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.
" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.
It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.
Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,
You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.
I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

Well, she did call one of the parents and inform them so that they
could make their own decisions.

Well, the problem is that it IS her decision if she's working with
children, legally her decision. Not the parents to take second hand
info
and try to make a decision.

A child could die while everyone is doing the Gregorian Shuffle.
(It's about refusing to be responsible... no matter the cost to
children.)

That, people, is the reason my kids never went to day care.

I used a private one while I was in college. One week, and a lady that
thought she was the parent to make all decisions, and I made the first

backpack style baby carrier ever seen to my knowledge at the time in
California.

Went to classes with my boy in my pack. He was a sweetheart and slept
through all the lectures. Even more than I did. R R R R R

He was a hit though. And nothing in the student manual about no kids.

The last time he was in that pack was in a blizzard as I hiked from
where I could park the car and into our place in the mountains.

I still have the pack, and the kid. He wouldn't fit now.....R R R R R R

R R not by about 5'6"

Boy if I'd patented that backpack baby carrier..........

- Hide quoted text -
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Betty


From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:29:55 -0800

cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent,

The time period isn't relent to the severity of the events. ONE such is

sufficient to ask for help from the authorities.

A crime likely was committed.

as these events occured over a period of a
year. As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

Some of what you described does not pass that test.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

It may be a crime.

And it places the parents at very high risk of being investigated by
CPS
and having their children placed in foster care during the
investigation.

If any injury occurred that was visible or reported by the child to
another person, especially a mandatory reporter, CPS could be knocking
a
their door.

And you might never know of it to come to their rescue with the
truth...and the parents might not even know the child was injured
there.

You are setting the parents up for very serious charges if you do NOT
report.

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe, I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story.

The kids were not safe. You described unsafe circumstances. What would
it take to happen for you to say they weren't safe?

I called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and
asked that she not mention me by name.

She's lucky medical personnel didn't report to CPS about the injured
child. Especially with her not being able to say how the child was
injured, or where. If she knew, and told, even being believed.

She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I disagree with you. The fact the day care is NOT reporting these
incidences to the parents indicates serious malfeasance. They should be

shut down for now, investigated, and if they've broken the law made by
the court to set up a system this will not happen in, or close their
doors.

And should a parent bring charges against the day care, which they
might
have to do if THEY were accused of the injury, you could be seen as
complicit and charged along with the operators.

You KNEW and you did not report to the authorities.

Check your state laws.

At this juncture I withdraw any comments that suggested Greg was wrong
to suggest an attorney.

You need one badly at the moment. Especially to help you make hard
decisions that may put you at risk as well as children and their
parents.

Please see one.

See if you have a legal aid service in your area if cost is a problem.
Sometimes lawyers will do, as they are expected to, a certain
percentage
of pro bono work.

Please don't delay.

Kane

From: "Greegor" Date: 23 Jan 2007 14:42:29 -0800

Kane wrote

At this juncture I withdraw any comments that
suggested Greg was wrong to suggest an attorney.

ROFL! "At this juncture"? Kane you pompous a-hole.

From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:25:35 -0800

Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
At this juncture I withdraw any comments that
suggested Greg was wrong to suggest an attorney.

ROFL! "At this juncture"? Kane you pompous a-hole.

It's pretentious to use euphemism to pretend to a genteel manner you
don't really project.

I've been meaning to talk to Dan about this.

I find it annoying....R R R RR

And I just made you right. No celebration? I'm thrill for you.

Nothing but ad hom from you. You then can go **** yourself.

My treat. I'll cover dinner, drinks and a hotel room, one night only.

Then you can go back to Ken.

0:-


From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:26:23 -0800

Your thoughts, Dan?

I disagree with some of Dan's final statements in this post.

Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't
believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occurred over a period of
a
year.

" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and
this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up.
A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other

incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now
and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the

part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen
in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that
she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep
in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the
kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

It is.

There is no assurance that a specific parent with attach enough
importance to the report from a worker.

It needs investigation.

It need not be CPS. It is a police matter as well. Doubtless there are
criminal statutes that would involve police investigation, and criminal

charges for the involved parties.

Parents are at virtually no risk of losing their children. Unless the
contributed to the risks and injuries.

I do agree that all parents should be notified, but not left to decide
if calling the cops is warranted.

There is a point where society must step in.

Every notified parent could pull their child, and new sets of parents
come in behind them place their children in the daycare and the new
ones
NOT know what is going on because the worker is no longer there to
report to them.

This needs police involvement and the courts.

The place needs shutting down.

Thanks for listening.

Greegor wrote:
The entire thread so far, crossposted.

Hey, thanks Greg.

This helps people understand the continuity of the advice stream, and
even puts you in a good light about advice.

When the poster popped up again with reservations about reporting your
advice earlier about getting a lawyer made perfect sense.

You foreshadowed events.

That's very good tactical skill.

Heck, we might even find out the comment about "weight" precedes the
poster having a heart attack and calling for help. Certainly if she's
overweight you're valuable prediction might help in making the attack
more treatable ... in some way.

That encourages me to ask, did you have some other thoughts you'd like
to share?

Kane


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...6cc66c/?hl=en#

Daycare lying to parents

Newsgroups: alt.support.child-protective-services
From: "cs23" Date: 22 Jan 2007 15:49:33 -0800

Hi, I'm not sure if this would be the place to post this question. Hope

I can get some feedback.

I work at a daycare, and there's been a lot of improper conduct by the
administration. A little boy cracked his head and had to get stitches
when another kid attacked him. The parents were told that he fell. A
little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again.

This is a church-run daycare and my understanding is that they are Not
under the same regulations as other childcare services. One of the
supervisors did complain to the church a while back about something
similar, and they did not believe her. All of this bothers me of
course, but I dont know if there's anything I can do without losing my
job. I wanna tell one of the parents that I know well about one recent
incident, but don't want to lose my job. And am not sure it would
change anything in the future anyway. What would you do?

From: "Firemonkey" Date: 22 Jan 2007 16:20:16 -0800

I would not leave any child in danger. Call the child abuse hotline.
They will connect you with who ever you need to speakwith and I'm sure

you do not have to tell them who you are, maybe call from a pay phone.
You know the danger now you must protect those children. A paycheck
will not mean much if a child gets run over in the street and you could

have prevented it. Do the right thing. Good Luck!
firemonkey

From: "Greegor" Date: 22 Jan 2007 16:27:29 -0800

Why is a church run daycare enterprise engaging in dishonesty?

I suggest you obtain a good lawyer.
Failing to report what actually took place to Child Protection
would be a violation on your part.
An employer who retaliates for whistle blowing is
taking a huge risk.

In re the boy with stitches: What cause does the doctor records state?

Telling lies to the doctor could get some people in big trouble.
Telling the truth to the doctor but telling parents otherwise
could also get somebody in big trouble.

You REALLY need to get a good lawyer because
if you know these things and don't report them,
eventually a kid might die or the coverup might
be exposed and you could be seen as "in on the coverup".

I can hardly wait to see what my detractors say about this!

Good luck with the weight loss CassieNova!

Greg Hanson in Cedar Rapids Iowa


From: "0:-" (AKA Kane, AKA Donald L. Fisher) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007
19:29:34 -0800

Fire yourself. Now. Then two seconds later ...

Pick up the phone, dial 911 before their "luck" runs out. You can be
sure eventually some child will be killed with this kind of
supervision.

You are ethically remiss and if a professional legally so if you do not

call, now.

I do admire your willingness to seek some advice though. Many people
simply turn their backs and mutter, NOMB.

Your job, a child's life.

I don't think there is much to consider. You can get another. What can
a
dead child do?

It's often forgotten by folks that see abuse: if YOU don't call the
child isn't going to either.

Start job hunting, now, just after you make the call to 911.

Forgive my posting personally to you as well. But I'm not willing to
have a child's injury or death on my head for NOT responding to you
immediately.

Ignore the CPS haters, and anti government twits that will likely try
a,
"it's none of your business, busybody," vicious insulting attack. They
have been responsible for a lot of child abuse by both direct means and

by proxie.

Go for it, cassienova23

You will sleep better, even if you have to job hunt.

Kane

From: "0:-" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 19:50:44 -0800

I thought long and hard before opening this reply to the daycare
problem
post.

I asked myself, just what level of drivel, diversion, and self serving
bull**** attacks can I expect.

You surpassed my estimate, Greg.

Greegor wrote:
Why is a church run daycare enterprise engaging in dishonesty?

Does it matter why if children are being injured?

I suggest you obtain a good lawyer.

And mark time?

The poster already is risking loss of income. What possible use could a

lawyer be to someone that is witnessing abuse?

Failing to report what actually took place to Child Protection
would be a violation on your part.

Actually you can simply call the police. I kind of like that part.

An employer who retaliates for whistle blowing is
taking a huge risk.

Not under certain circumstances.

You seem, about once a month, to call Doug a liar.

He pointed out that whistle blowers are at high risk. And government
workers have more protection than private sector folks. Unless the
poster has a powerful union.

I've not ever heard of any church worker's union.

In re the boy with stitches: What cause does the doctor records state?

How would the poster have access to records that federal law (HIPPA)
her
seeing could result in fines of up to and even in excess of $100,000
and
up to a year on jail?

Telling lies to the doctor could get some people in big trouble.

What has this to do with the poster's question? No doctor's or health
care professionals were mentioned.

Telling the truth to the doctor but telling parents otherwise
could also get somebody in big trouble.

And while we wait for an investigation of the kind you have called
witch
hunting, will the children be safe?

Until someone discloses these acts what do you suppose will happen to
the children.

You REALLY need to get a good lawyer because
if you know these things and don't report them,
eventually a kid might die or the coverup might
be exposed and you could be seen as "in on the coverup".

The poster IS in on the cover up right now. He or she simply doesn't
realize it. I'll assume "she," is a mandated reporter in most states.

To NOT report is a criminal offense. Likely she has not been told this
by her employers but even volunteers are required to report.

I can hardly wait to see what my detractors say about this!

Oh, you mean you were trying to make as many jackass statements to
provoke us. Gee, how smart...dancing in the blood of children.

Good luck with the weight loss CassieNova!

Very clever if you were in fact being trolled.

Very stupid if you weren't, and these are the true events taking place
somewhere.

Is the real world that far away from your catatonia?

Greg Hanson in Cedar Rapids Iowa ...

As usual.

From: "Greegor" Date: 22 Jan 2007 20:59:23 -0800

I would add that if she is making any of this up, that false
reporting can have some repercussions. Rare, but possible.

If it's just rumours or innuendo, it can backfire.
The lawyer could indeed protect her interests
as far as retaliatory firing, etc.

From: "Greegor" Date: 22 Jan 2007 21:08:11 -0800

Kane wrote
Ignore the CPS haters, and anti government twits that will likely try a,
"it's none of your business, busybody," vicious insulting attack. They
have been responsible for a lot of child abuse by both direct means and
by proxie.

I advised her to obtain a good lawyer and report it.

After I posted that, Kane STILL PREDICTS others would
say things they did not say!

Kane the LOBBYIST for the Child Protection INDUSTRY is
of course so eager for the report he wants you to have
no lawyer. Do you smell a rat in that advice?

What the hell is Child Abuse by proxie???

Please acknowledge you read the answers Cassie.

From: "Dragon's Girl" (AKA Betty Jean Hammond Wirsen) Date: 22 Jan
2007 21:18:14 -0800

First of all, it does not really matter, I assume in ANY state, whether

or not this is a church run daycare. A daycare is a daycare is a
daycare and is likely to be licensed by the state...
That being said, if your daycare IS licensed by the state, and you work

there, you are a mandated reporter.
That means if you know of child abuse or neglect occurring within the
daycare of the children, you are REQUIRED by law to report it to the
child abuse hotline. ( some people may be mandated and not even know
it )

Let's talk for a second about what that means to you.

If you do not report it, and it is later uncovered someone will likely
try to pass the buck of fault to you and/or your coworkers. If a child

is seriously injured or dies that means that YOU and your coworkers are

legally responsible for that death or injury by negligence.

That can mean jail time, it can also mean lawsuits. If you are worried

about losing your job then I assume that you are not 'well to do' and
cannot afford to have everything you own ripped from you in a lawsuit.
Couple that with attorney fees and up the creek without a paddle you
go.

Now that we've talked about the legal side of it, let's talk about the
personal side:

Can you live with yourself if your inaction would indirectly cause the
death of a child? Serious injury? How would your conscience fair
knowing that a child, or even more than one, have suffered abuse and/or

neglect because you did not do your job? Like it or not, your job IS
child protection, and failing to report is not doing your job.

There are many jobs out there in most communities, and finding another
won't be hard for you, but the hardship that could be part of your life

weighed against making a report may be too hard for you to live with.
Couple that with the guilt that you may feel later on if something
awful were to happen and you must realize that your life would,
essentially, be ****.

Get out now.

If this is what you see in your work place then your job SUCKS, and if
you have enough morals to write here for help then you must not feel
right about what you are seeing and don't like your job, or those
aspects of it anyway.

Make the report to the state. Let them take care of it. if the
daycare closes you can always fall back on unemployment until you find
a new job.

I bet you will sleep better at night too.

Betty

From: "Dragon's Girl" Date: 22 Jan 2007 23:46:47 -0800

Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
Ignore the CPS haters, and anti government twits that will likely try a,
"it's none of your business, busybody," vicious insulting attack. They
have been responsible for a lot of child abuse by both direct means and
by proxie.

I advised her to obtain a good lawyer and report it.

After I posted that, Kane STILL PREDICTS others would
say things they did not say!

Kinda like you saying I was in a nut house?
Idiot.

Kane the LOBBYIST for the Child Protection INDUSTRY is
of course so eager for the report he wants you to have
no lawyer. Do you smell a rat in that advice?

I read both of Kane's posts and saw nowhere that he advised against an
attorney for this person.
He mainly advised to report the abuse and never made mention of an
attorney.
I'm sure he knows that this person could just traipse right on over to
her attorney's office and make the call from there with his/her
approval..I could, why couldn't she?

What the hell is Child Abuse by proxie???

Indirect abuse...like standing around and watching while a child is
abused and doing not a damned thing about it.
But, you knew that, didn't you?

Please acknowledge you read the answers Cassie.

Why would she do that? So you can babble on some more about Kane (or
hell, anyone else for that matter) not wanting her to have an attorney
and being a big bad old boogie man?
Rabid or rancid, I can't decide.

From: "cs23" Date: 23 Jan 2007 06:19:23 -0800

I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year. As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids. My moral problem was the lying to parents.
Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe, I just think the parents

whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the
kids.

From: "Dan Sullivan" Date: 23 Jan 2007 06:46:00 -0800

cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.


" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

From: "Dragon's Girl" Date: 23 Jan 2007 08:43:06 -0800

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Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.

" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

Well, she did call one of the parents and inform them so that they
could make their own decisions.

That, people, is the reason my kids never went to day care.

Betty

From: "Dan Sullivan" Date: 23 Jan 2007 08:48:47 -0800

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Dragon's Girl wrote:
Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.

" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

Well, she did call one of the parents and inform them so that they
could make their own decisions.

One out of how many?

This woman is on the right track... but one isn't enough.

ALL the parents have to know the truth.

And the caregivers who said to keep the truth from the parents should
be given their pink slips.

From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:07:26 -0800

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Dragon's Girl wrote:
Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occured over a period of a
year.
" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up. A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other
incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the
part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.
It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.
Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,
You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.
I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

Well, she did call one of the parents and inform them so that they
could make their own decisions.

Well, the problem is that it IS her decision if she's working with
children, legally her decision. Not the parents to take second hand
info
and try to make a decision.

A child could die while everyone is doing the Gregorian Shuffle.
(It's about refusing to be responsible... no matter the cost to
children.)

That, people, is the reason my kids never went to day care.

I used a private one while I was in college. One week, and a lady that
thought she was the parent to make all decisions, and I made the first

backpack style baby carrier ever seen to my knowledge at the time in
California.

Went to classes with my boy in my pack. He was a sweetheart and slept
through all the lectures. Even more than I did. R R R R R

He was a hit though. And nothing in the student manual about no kids.

The last time he was in that pack was in a blizzard as I hiked from
where I could park the car and into our place in the mountains.

I still have the pack, and the kid. He wouldn't fit now.....R R R R R R

R R not by about 5'6"

Boy if I'd patented that backpack baby carrier..........

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Betty


From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:29:55 -0800

cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't believe
the daycare is negligent,

The time period isn't relent to the severity of the events. ONE such is

sufficient to ask for help from the authorities.

A crime likely was committed.

as these events occured over a period of a
year. As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen in a
place with so many kids.

Some of what you described does not pass that test.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

It may be a crime.

And it places the parents at very high risk of being investigated by
CPS
and having their children placed in foster care during the
investigation.

If any injury occurred that was visible or reported by the child to
another person, especially a mandatory reporter, CPS could be knocking
a
their door.

And you might never know of it to come to their rescue with the
truth...and the parents might not even know the child was injured
there.

You are setting the parents up for very serious charges if you do NOT
report.

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe, I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story.

The kids were not safe. You described unsafe circumstances. What would
it take to happen for you to say they weren't safe?

I called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and
asked that she not mention me by name.

She's lucky medical personnel didn't report to CPS about the injured
child. Especially with her not being able to say how the child was
injured, or where. If she knew, and told, even being believed.

She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the kids.

I disagree with you. The fact the day care is NOT reporting these
incidences to the parents indicates serious malfeasance. They should be

shut down for now, investigated, and if they've broken the law made by
the court to set up a system this will not happen in, or close their
doors.

And should a parent bring charges against the day care, which they
might
have to do if THEY were accused of the injury, you could be seen as
complicit and charged along with the operators.

You KNEW and you did not report to the authorities.

Check your state laws.

At this juncture I withdraw any comments that suggested Greg was wrong
to suggest an attorney.

You need one badly at the moment. Especially to help you make hard
decisions that may put you at risk as well as children and their
parents.

Please see one.

See if you have a legal aid service in your area if cost is a problem.
Sometimes lawyers will do, as they are expected to, a certain
percentage
of pro bono work.

Please don't delay.

Kane

From: "Greegor" Date: 23 Jan 2007 14:42:29 -0800

Kane wrote

At this juncture I withdraw any comments that
suggested Greg was wrong to suggest an attorney.

ROFL! "At this juncture"? Kane you pompous a-hole.

From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:25:35 -0800

Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
At this juncture I withdraw any comments that
suggested Greg was wrong to suggest an attorney.

ROFL! "At this juncture"? Kane you pompous a-hole.

It's pretentious to use euphemism to pretend to a genteel manner you
don't really project.

I've been meaning to talk to Dan about this.

I find it annoying....R R R RR

And I just made you right. No celebration? I'm thrill for you.

Nothing but ad hom from you. You then can go **** yourself.

My treat. I'll cover dinner, drinks and a hotel room, one night only.

Then you can go back to Ken.

0:-


From: "0:-" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:26:23 -0800

Your thoughts, Dan?

I disagree with some of Dan's final statements in this post.

Dan Sullivan wrote:
cs23 wrote:
I don't think I explained myself well to begin with. I don't
believe
the daycare is negligent, as these events occurred over a period of
a
year.

" A little boy was wandering outside into a busy intersection and
this
wasn't documented and the workers instructed not to tell anyone.
Another toddler was choking on a quarter, almost died, and threw up.
A
lie was made up about that too, and all of the workers were told to
stick to this lie by the boss of the daycare. There's a lot of other

incidents of improper actions at the daycare that I see every now
and
again."

How many incidents don't you know about... or were lied to about?

A little boy wandering into a busy intersection is negligence on the

part of someone.

So is the quarter incident.

And they both were lied about.

As far as children's safety, please believe me that the daycare
is at a good level, except for isolated incidents that can happen
in a
place with so many kids.

It's isolated incidents that result in tragedies.

My moral problem was the lying to parents.

Not the incidents themselves?

What if it was your child that wandered out into traffic?

Thus, I don't think that the kids aren't safe,

You are sadly mistaken.

I just think the parents
whose kids were involved in an incident, 4 incidents over a year,
deserve to know about that happened instead of hearing a story. I
called the parent of the stitched up toddler today, and asked that
she
not mention me by name. She'll probably be taking her kid out the
daycare. We will go from there. Thanks for the advice, I will keep
in
mind all these options if I feel there's real danger to any of the
kids.

I believe, at this point, you are involved in a cover-up of the
incidents that happened and were lied about to the parents.

Tell every parent what really happened.

Everyone should know.

And THEN the parents can decide if THEIR children are safe at that
daycare.

It is not your decision.

It is.

There is no assurance that a specific parent with attach enough
importance to the report from a worker.

It needs investigation.

It need not be CPS. It is a police matter as well. Doubtless there are
criminal statutes that would involve police investigation, and criminal

charges for the involved parties.

Parents are at virtually no risk of losing their children. Unless the
contributed to the risks and injuries.

I do agree that all parents should be notified, but not left to decide
if calling the cops is warranted.

There is a point where society must step in.

Every notified parent could pull their child, and new sets of parents
come in behind them place their children in the daycare and the new
ones
NOT know what is going on because the worker is no longer there to
report to them.

This needs police involvement and the courts.

The place needs shutting down.

Thanks for listening.