What would you do if.....

Originally Posted by Doan

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:

Time out has been proven to work time and time again.

Hi beccafromlalaland,
I am very interested in the above claim. Can you provide me a pointer
to any research that backed up such claim?

Doan

Crespi (1988) and Fee, Matson, and Manikam (1990) Both Showed that Time Outs were Effective for controlling undesirable behavior.

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:


Doan Wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:

Time out has been proven to work time and time again.

Hi beccafromlalaland,
I am very interested in the above claim. Can you provide me a pointer
to any research that backed up such claim?

Doan

Crespi (1988) and Fee, Matson, and Manikam (1990) Both Showed that
Time Outs were Effective for controlling undesirable behavior.


--
beccafromlalaland

Thank you. I'll look them up.

Doan

I know that when I take my 4yr old to the movie theatre he is
so stinkin' excited that he jumps up and down, runs around, screeches,
whoops hollars and what not. He's EXCITED, I have made the choice to
let him behave the way he feels

Do you ever consider the people around you in the cinema? I say spank
the little bugger.

Jennie

I consider that the movies we take our young child to see are geared towards the preschool set and that there are 50 other jumping screeching excited 3-5yr old waiting in line to buy popcorn.

Originally Posted by Jennie

I know that when I take my 4yr old to the movie theatre he is
so stinkin' excited that he jumps up and down, runs around, screeches,
whoops hollars and what not. He's EXCITED, I have made the choice to
let him behave the way he feels

Do you ever consider the people around you in the cinema? I say spank
the little bugger.

Jennie

beccafromlalaland wrote:
I consider that the movies we take our young child to see are geared
towards the preschool set and that there are 50 other jumping
screeching excited 3-5yr old waiting in line to buy popcorn.

I doubt "Jennie" is a serious poster, becca. Just another troll or one
of our precious little sockpuppets.

http://tinyurl.com/orvax

!!!Warning!!! The link above will take you to an "adult content" signin
page, because it is an "incest support" newsgroup,
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.incest?hl=en) where "Jennie"
seems to have posted this 11 days ago:

"
From: Jennie - view profile
Date: Tues, Apr 4 2006 9:49 am
Email: "Jennie"
Groups: alt.support.incest

show options

Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | View Thread | Show original
| Report Abuse | Find messages by this author

Sue, if I'm out looking for a friend for the evening, and I find a boy
with seven or eight inches, my reaction is to thank God for my chastity
belt. A boy with a smaller penis is much more likely to get my belt and
panties off. I think they're cuter and they appeal to my juvenile
fetish.

Jennie
............

Of course Jennie can have more than one interest, but this seems to be
an indicator of values as per children and acting out noisily in
theaters, don't you think?

More from "Jennie's" posts:

"Yes, I think that if Kathymom feels able to introduce her son to sex at
his present young age, she would not regret doing it.

Jennie "

Other posts are much more graphic.

There is much more of interest really, but you can see for yourself if
you don't mind reading of incest taken for granted enthusiastically.

0:-







Jennie Wrote:
I know that when I take my 4yr old to the movie theatre he is
so stinkin' excited that he jumps up and down, runs around,
screeches,
whoops hollars and what not. He's EXCITED, I have made the choice to
let him behave the way he feels

Do you ever consider the people around you in the cinema? I say spank
the little bugger.

Jennie




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Is this where LaVonne is going to debate with Doan?

On 11 Apr 2006 21:43:39 -0700, "Richelle"
wrote:

Spanking and smoking are very different, and it is off topic

I think that spanking IS ok, if it is done in reason. Because talking
about the child's feelings is proving to do NOTHING!

Talking about the child's feelings is not doing nothing, but it is
also only a tool in a larger set of things positive parents do. And
talking about children's feelings is actually best done when the
child is not angry and having a meltdown. The idea though is to
acknowledge that the child has feelings that are valid for him so
that he learns that his feelings are not wrong, but his behavior is
unacceptable.

How often do you see parents afraid to discpline their children and
the children are basically in charge of their parents?

Truly permissive parenting that doesn't *teach* children self-control
is a problem, but that comes from partly from the fact that we are
currently in a learning environment where parents have begun to
stop spanking, but don't have good non-punitive techniques to put
in its place. Those parents need help and education to figure out
what they can do to discipline without spanking (no, not necessarily
other punishments which is what you cite below)

I see it all the time at my work, which is a movie theatre (a part
time job for an 18 year old) You cannot say that today's children
are far more rebelious then they were say 50 years ago.

Do you mean they *are* more rebellious? I don't think that is so.
Kids in movie theaters have always been pretty rowdy judging from
my own experiences in the 1950s and 1960s. It depends on the
age of the kids and whether parents are with them, etc.

Take classrooms for instance. Children disrespect
their teachers so much and there really isn't much the teachers can do
about it. Like suspension? That is laughable, a child who constantly
misbehaves is probably spoiled and will recieve close to know
punishment and instead gets to "skip" school with out the hastle of
making excuse notes.

A true suspension does not happen often in the public schools (that
would be where a child was told he could not return to the school at
all). Three day suspensions do happen and they are pretty ineffective
for most high school problems certainly. I prefer in school or
Saturday detentions if we are going to talk about punishments, but
there are better ways to handle discipline in the classroom than
with punishment. Discipline must be consistent from the beginning
of the year and must create an atmosphere where *most* of the students
buy into the rules and want to learn.

Time out is another laughable dicipline. Children sit for a few minutes
and once the parents back is turn, bam they do it again. In all
honestly how bad is it to sit in a chair for 5 minutes. Quiet frankly I
was more afraid of the spanking. And I was less likely to to repeat the
bad behaviour because hey! Spanking hurts! Sitting in a chair doesn't.

Fear is not the point.

I don't use time-outs though except in the sense of allowing childrent
to cool down when they are angry and having a tantrum which is an
indication of out-of-control emotions.

Time-outs done in the traditional way are effective with some kids and
not with others. It depends on how sensitive the child is to the
emotions of his parents really.

Another favored dicipline technique is the 3 warnings then a time out.
Oh God! How pointless, that means little Johnny can hit Billy 3 times
before recieveing a punishment and GUESS WHAT! He will soon learnt to
manipulate you by hitting Billy only twice and then he will recieve
nothing more then a sweet "if you do it one more time you will have to
sit down for 5 minutes."

But for hitting, time outs are generally not suggested as the whole
method.

Here is what I do when kids hit (note you do this when they are young
and mostly they don't need it when they are older)

First, shadow the child closely for the period when they are starting
to hit. This takes time and effort on the part of the adult.

Second, if they manage to actually hit, always comfort the child who
was hit first before paying attention to the child who did the
hitting.

Third, when you can prevent the hit by grabbing the hitting child's
hand gently but firmly ignoring crying and tantruming over this. Then
say "We use gentle hands to touch people" and show the child how
to use gentle hands.

Fourth, remove the child from the situation for a few minutes. He can
be distracted with another toy, but should not get attention from the
parent. He should be *timed-out* from companionship for a few
minutes.

After this, allow him or her to try again. Do this every time the
child starts to hit. No exceptions. After a short time, the child
usually figures out that hitting won't get him his way.

The other component to this though is that when the child is playing
well, you pay attention to him and notice that behavior. "You shared
your truck with Billy." "You had fun taking turns on the swing."

Play with your young child when he is in a good mood and playing well.

Teach your child how to label and deal with emotions, especially
anger. Teaching breathing out anger is one of the best ways to help
children, imo, but there are other techniques to use.

Read books and role play difficult situations and discuss with your
child appropriate ways to handle these situations.

All of this takes a lot more time than just spanking.

Being sent to you room is another laughable dicipline! Man in all
honesty I LOVED, absolutly LOVED being sent to my room as punishment,
because guess what! All my toys were there, so not only was a removed
from my pesky siblings I was free to have fun as punishment!

The question arises here of whether or not this was intended as
punishment. When sending a child to his room, I was using this
simply to separate him from siblings or to allow him a space to
calm down. It did not matter to me if he played with toys in his
room. Mostly my kids wanted to come out and be social with their
friends and with us. They liked their room, but mostly didn't want to
stay their without companionship for long periods of time, so they
came back calmer.

So really the most unenjoyable punishment was the most effective one.
Because I didn't like the consquence of my actions. The spankings
weren't excessive, or cruel, and never was my bare buttocks shown or
were objects used. I got 2 short smack to my bum, I would cry for a bit
and the behaviour stopped.

Consequences though should be actually related to the action.

For example, if a child misuses a toy, that toy gets put away, not
other toys. Toys can be put into time-out

Just like if a child were to touch something hot, they get a burn they
learn not to touch it again

Actually, if you allow a child to feel something that is minimally
hot but won't burn and teach them the word *hot* then you can
usually prevent them from having to be burned to learn this.
Spanking though doesn't teach them this.

We don't want to stifle our children's curiosity about the world,
though we want to keep them safe. Learning to do something
under supervision is better than constantly telling kids no and
spanking to keep them from exploring.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

toto wrote:
On 11 Apr 2006 21:43:39 -0700, "Richelle"
wrote:

Spanking and smoking are very different, and it is off topic

I think that spanking IS ok, if it is done in reason. Because talking
about the child's feelings is proving to do NOTHING!

Talking about the child's feelings is not doing nothing, but it is
also only a tool in a larger set of things positive parents do. And
talking about children's feelings is actually best done when the
child is not angry and having a meltdown. The idea though is to
acknowledge that the child has feelings that are valid for him so
that he learns that his feelings are not wrong, but his behavior is
unacceptable.

How often do you see parents afraid to discpline their children and
the children are basically in charge of their parents?

Truly permissive parenting that doesn't *teach* children self-control
is a problem,

Not to deliberately render your thought in two, but this 'permissive
parent" jazz is too old to let slide anymore.

My experience both as a parent and observing other parents, and in a
clinical treatment setting showed me that the 'permissive' parent is the
nearest you can get to a myth without making it ALL up.

I have seen about four of them -- truly full time permissive parents.
Four families. While they had manipulative children with a lack of
empathy as ONE of their children, the siblings were not the same. Often
the difficult child is reactive to the INATTENTIVE permissive parent.

Permissive parents that are also HIGHLY ATTENTIVE PARENTS often produce
genius. I can't say why, but that is the case with very famous people,
like Einstein, and Thomas Edison. They weren't likable folks to know
personally, I've heard, but they sure as hell contributed to society.

Families with permissive parents who were less attentive had as much
variation in behavior as any other set of sibs.

But HERE is where the rubber hits the road: What I HAVE seen, and this
did run into the HUNDREDS, were children (mostly in treatment as teens)
with parents that were routinely the
permissive/inattentive-periodic-RAGING MARTINETTE.

If one saw them doing a 'permissive' phase in the cycle they'd think
they were seeing a permissive parent. And you can be sure, the
Martinette portion of the cycle is usually well hidden at home.

Often THESE are the children that come out in body bags. Sometimes
mentally, but on occasion, physically.

Thank you for your kind indulgence in my interrupting the flow of your
commentary.

Kane

but that comes from partly from the fact that we are
currently in a learning environment where parents have begun to
stop spanking, but don't have good non-punitive techniques to put
in its place. Those parents need help and education to figure out
what they can do to discipline without spanking (no, not necessarily
other punishments which is what you cite below)

And that is the 64 thousand dollar question that gets glossed over here.

Is it possible to raise children using a mindset and methods driven by
support, nurturing, coaching, teaching, and NOT use "punishment?"

It certainly IS. But without the "mindset" which comes from commitment
and learning it's unlikely to happen.

I see it all the time at my work, which is a movie theatre (a part
time job for an 18 year old) You cannot say that today's children
are far more rebelious then they were say 50 years ago.

Do you mean they *are* more rebellious? I don't think that is so.
Kids in movie theaters have always been pretty rowdy judging from
my own experiences in the 1950s and 1960s. It depends on the
age of the kids and whether parents are with them, etc.

I recall...well, let's say a whole lot of years, decades, ago, going to
movie matinées and it was a riot. I pity the poor theater personnel when
I think of it. And I lived in an upscale area.

Take classrooms for instance. Children disrespect
their teachers so much and there really isn't much the teachers can do
about it. Like suspension? That is laughable, a child who constantly
misbehaves is probably spoiled and will recieve close to know
punishment and instead gets to "skip" school with out the hastle of
making excuse notes.

A true suspension does not happen often in the public schools (that
would be where a child was told he could not return to the school at
all). Three day suspensions do happen and they are pretty ineffective
for most high school problems certainly. I prefer in school or
Saturday detentions if we are going to talk about punishments, but
there are better ways to handle discipline in the classroom than
with punishment. Discipline must be consistent from the beginning
of the year and must create an atmosphere where *most* of the students
buy into the rules and want to learn.

Time out is another laughable dicipline. Children sit for a few minutes
and once the parents back is turn, bam they do it again. In all
honestly how bad is it to sit in a chair for 5 minutes. Quiet frankly I
was more afraid of the spanking. And I was less likely to to repeat the
bad behaviour because hey! Spanking hurts! Sitting in a chair doesn't.

Fear is not the point.

I don't use time-outs though except in the sense of allowing childrent
to cool down when they are angry and having a tantrum which is an
indication of out-of-control emotions.

I relabeled those years ago to "Time In." Children that are out of
control are practically screaming, "Help me" to the parent.

Time-outs done in the traditional way are effective with some kids and
not with others. It depends on how sensitive the child is to the
emotions of his parents really.

Bingo!

Another favored dicipline technique is the 3 warnings then a time out.
Oh God! How pointless, that means little Johnny can hit Billy 3 times
before recieveing a punishment and GUESS WHAT! He will soon learnt to
manipulate you by hitting Billy only twice and then he will recieve
nothing more then a sweet "if you do it one more time you will have to
sit down for 5 minutes."

But for hitting, time outs are generally not suggested as the whole
method.

Here is what I do when kids hit (note you do this when they are young
and mostly they don't need it when they are older)

First, shadow the child closely for the period when they are starting
to hit. This takes time and effort on the part of the adult.

Second, if they manage to actually hit, always comfort the child who
was hit first before paying attention to the child who did the
hitting.

Third, when you can prevent the hit by grabbing the hitting child's
hand gently but firmly ignoring crying and tantruming over this. Then
say "We use gentle hands to touch people" and show the child how
to use gentle hands.

Gosh, you mean that like learning colors, numbers, letters, how to
toilet, you can actually instruct a child how to correctly touch?

0;-

Fourth, remove the child from the situation for a few minutes. He can
be distracted with another toy, but should not get attention from the
parent. He should be *timed-out* from companionship for a few
minutes.

After this, allow him or her to try again. Do this every time the
child starts to hit. No exceptions. After a short time, the child
usually figures out that hitting won't get him his way.

The other component to this though is that when the child is playing
well, you pay attention to him and notice that behavior. "You shared
your truck with Billy." "You had fun taking turns on the swing."

Play with your young child when he is in a good mood and playing well.

Teach your child how to label and deal with emotions, especially
anger. Teaching breathing out anger is one of the best ways to help
children, imo, but there are other techniques to use.

Read books and role play difficult situations and discuss with your
child appropriate ways to handle these situations.

All of this takes a lot more time than just spanking.

Actually up until now, Toto, I have agreed with you. I do NOT on this.
Spanking creates side effects that will take a great deal more time.

The same behavior being extinguished with aversion yields to the kind of
teaching you outline above in less than half the time, and numbers of
repetitions in many if not most children.

There simply is too much risk in spanking.

And with spanking or any aversive you have to reintroduce it for nearly
everything you DON'T want the child to do.

With non-punitive methods the method itself tends to flow into ALL issues.

Why?

Trust.

The child learns to look TOO the parent for answers when things aren't
going well.

And that's going to be golden when the child is a teen.

Being sent to you room is another laughable dicipline! Man in all
honesty I LOVED, absolutly LOVED being sent to my room as punishment,
because guess what! All my toys were there, so not only was a removed
from my pesky siblings I was free to have fun as punishment!
The question arises here of whether or not this was intended as
punishment. When sending a child to his room, I was using this
simply to separate him from siblings or to allow him a space to
calm down. It did not matter to me if he played with toys in his
room. Mostly my kids wanted to come out and be social with their
friends and with us. They liked their room, but mostly didn't want to
stay their without companionship for long periods of time, so they
came back calmer.

At the risk of boring.....TRUST. You are describing it.

So really the most unenjoyable punishment was the most effective one.
Because I didn't like the consquence of my actions. The spankings
weren't excessive, or cruel, and never was my bare buttocks shown or
were objects used. I got 2 short smack to my bum, I would cry for a bit
and the behaviour stopped.

Consequences though should be actually related to the action.

For example, if a child misuses a toy, that toy gets put away, not
other toys. Toys can be put into time-out

R R R ... love it. Now that's original and neat.

Just like if a child were to touch something hot, they get a burn they
learn not to touch it again

Actually, if you allow a child to feel something that is minimally
hot but won't burn and teach them the word *hot* then you can
usually prevent them from having to be burned to learn this.
Spanking though doesn't teach them this.

We don't want to stifle our children's curiosity about the world,
though we want to keep them safe. Learning to do something
under supervision is better than constantly telling kids no and
spanking to keep them from exploring.

How many people with the potential to genius and great contributions
were stifled? We'll never no, but with 90% or so of parents spanking, it
has to be a lot.

Thanks Dorothy. Kane

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin