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  #121  
Old December 5th 06, 03:44 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
0:->
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,968
Default Then of course there is this: FLEXIBLE TRUTH and JUVENILE COURTS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury

....Statements of interpretation of fact are not perjury because people
often make inaccurate statements unwittingly and not deliberately.
Individuals may have honest but mistaken beliefs about certain facts or
their recollection may be inaccurate. Like most other crimes in the
common law system, to be convicted of perjury you have to have had the
intention (the mens rea) to commit the act, and to have actually
committed the act (the actus reus)....

I'm very proud to have found some information that might well get you
off the hook with your testimony to the U.S.Congress, Greg.

And should you find yourself in any problem, feel free to refer to me
as to your frequent habit of making innacurate statement...though I'm
not sure I could testify they are 'unwittingly.'

You do seem to have a great many mistaken beliefs, but again, I'm not
sure they are honest mistakes.

.....hmmmm....maybe you best not call on me for help, unless your life
is in danger.

0:-

  #122  
Old December 5th 06, 03:58 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Greegor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,243
Default FLEXIBLE TRUTH and JUVENILE COURTS

Kane wrote
Now, have you seen someone from CPS make
verifiably false statements on
a material matter under oath in a court of law?


Yes, several times.

If so, why have you not provided the verifiable evidence and had them
charged with perjury?


When a public defender sees such blatant proof of this
and offers no help, is that a failure to provide a vigorous defense?

When a GAL sees this but sweeps it under the rug, is
that a failure to represent?

When a Judge sees this and does nothing, isn't that malfeasance?

Waiting for the court to do it?


Is any court in the land allowed to ignore such
blatant violations of people's rights?

Isn't that sort of thing the FIRST DUTY
of any court in this land?

  #123  
Old December 5th 06, 04:54 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
0:->
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,968
Default FLEXIBLE TRUTH and JUVENILE COURTS


Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
Now, have you seen someone from CPS make
verifiably false statements on
a material matter under oath in a court of law?


Yes, several times.


Does it meet the definition I provided?

If so, why have you not provided the verifiable evidence and had them
charged with perjury?


When a public defender sees such blatant proof of this
and offers no help, is that a failure to provide a vigorous defense?


In other words, you didn't prefer a charge of perjury. Do you expect
others to do your "trial" "vicariously" for you?

When a GAL sees this but sweeps it under the rug, is
that a failure to represent?


I don't know. Depends on if the GAL is conversant with the law and
knows it's not going to meet the requirement and definition to bring
charges.

When a Judge sees this and does nothing, isn't that malfeasance?


Nope.

Waiting for the court to do it?


Is any court in the land allowed to ignore such
blatant violations of people's rights?


No. Now please state the rights that are being violated.

Isn't that sort of thing the FIRST DUTY
of any court in this land?


No.

You have a deep fundamental ignorance of the law, and laws, Greg.

If you see a crime being committed and YOU wish to have that crime
stopped then YOU have to either bring charges yourself, or bring it
specifically to the attention of the authorties.

They may or may not act on your alert. A great deal depends, as Ron
pointed out to you, on whether or not the prosecutor thinks this is a
'crime' worth spending time on.

So in the end, only YOU can have someone charged and must follow
through yourself.

You know, for someone with such a profound distrust of authority you
have a very high expectation of authority to act in your behalf.

Why is that I wonder.

Now please, try answering some of the question put to you, like the one
about show what rights of the parent's are being violated routinely in
CPS cases that go to court.

Or are you planning to never answer a question that you know you have
not facts for, but still continue to harp on the same claims you've
never supported?

0:-

  #124  
Old December 5th 06, 04:58 AM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,380
Default Greg, it's a 'must read.' Gloating or Ill Wishes vs Threatsof violence

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a
suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada
to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel
suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not
in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or
belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan

So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.


Doan


Anytime truth is not factual it is not a defense of any kind. What you
believe to be truth may indeed not be based on facts. Facts are always
the
truth, but sometimes the truth is not factual.

Ron

If the truth is not factual then, by definition, it is not the truth!


Doan


As I have been saying, Truth is perception. Truth can be based on faith,
fact cannot. Therefore truth is not always factual and can change depending
on the individuals perspective. Fact is immutable, it cannot be changed.

Ron

Do yourself a favor and look it up in a dictionary, Ron. Fact and truth
are synonymous!

Doan




For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â?"noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
â?"noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
â?"Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.









  #125  
Old December 5th 06, 01:51 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Ron
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 625
Default Greg, it's a 'must read.' Gloating or Ill Wishes vs Threats of violence


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a
suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of
the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to
this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada
to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring
qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that
actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel
suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not
in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or
state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or
belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan

So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.


Doan


Anytime truth is not factual it is not a defense of any kind. What you
believe to be truth may indeed not be based on facts. Facts are always
the
truth, but sometimes the truth is not factual.

Ron

If the truth is not factual then, by definition, it is not the truth!


Doan


As I have been saying, Truth is perception. Truth can be based on faith,
fact cannot. Therefore truth is not always factual and can change
depending
on the individuals perspective. Fact is immutable, it cannot be changed.

Ron

Do yourself a favor and look it up in a dictionary, Ron. Fact and truth
are synonymous!


Doan


The dictionary has nothing to do with it doan. This is a philosophical
discussion, and dictionaries don't do philosophy.

Ron




For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â?"noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds
departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
â?"noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
â?"Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.










  #126  
Old December 5th 06, 02:08 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
0:->
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,968
Default Greg, it's a 'must read.' Gloating or Ill Wishes vs Threatsof violence

Ron wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:

"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:

"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a
suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of
the
complainant.
Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.
If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to
this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada
to
defamation
(libel and slander).
Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring
qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that
actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."
Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel
suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not
in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.
No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.
If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or
state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.


Ron

Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or
belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron
Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.
Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan
So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.
Doan
Anytime truth is not factual it is not a defense of any kind. What you
believe to be truth may indeed not be based on facts. Facts are always
the
truth, but sometimes the truth is not factual.

Ron

If the truth is not factual then, by definition, it is not the truth!
Doan

As I have been saying, Truth is perception. Truth can be based on faith,
fact cannot. Therefore truth is not always factual and can change
depending
on the individuals perspective. Fact is immutable, it cannot be changed.

Ron

Do yourself a favor and look it up in a dictionary, Ron. Fact and truth
are synonymous!


Doan


The dictionary has nothing to do with it doan. This is a philosophical
discussion, and dictionaries don't do philosophy.


Even the dictionaries make plain that the question of "truth" and "fact"
in the law is open to interpretation there.

Otherwise we wouldn't need judges and juries.

Just pop the case "facts" and the "truth" into a logical program for
analysis and comparison with known facts and truth and out would come
the finding.

" 4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable."

Yet they call them "facts."

For instance, the truth of this statement, an example from below is in
dispute. Rome experienced many setbacks in it's colonies...stretched far
too thinly. There is some evidence showing that lead was a popular
cooking and eating utensil manufacturing metal.

So this "truth" is highly questionable:

"12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire."

It's an opinion. A philosophical question, when using the word "moral"
to define a 'truth.'

It is not factual.

So not synonymous as claimed.

Your point about dictionaries and philosophy is well taken, even if
dictionaries do include philosophical considerations.

We are left with this question, from the subject field, Gloating or Ill
Wishes vs Threats of Violence.

The argument of those that oppose me on this are based on the situation
now...and I have made it clear I am discussing outcomes. That is, should
violence be visited on me or mine, or Donald Fisher and his, then the
sentiments being expressed about "CPS Caseworkers" of which I am accused
of being, will take on an entirely new light.

I posted a quote, with link, that made plain "connotation" was arguable
as a libel or slander charge definition...even if true in fact.

Fundamental mindsets have a difficult time wrapping themselves,
apparently, around time and circumstances having an effect on charges
and claims.

I find this amusing.

Doan will continue to split hairs, rather than deal with the real issue.

Expressing desires for others injury or death mean nothing. Until of
course there is an injury or death.

That is the only reason I keep track of the babbling of I'll wishes and
"gloating" over killings of caseworkers.

Since I'm accuse of being one, though I am not, nor have I ever been,
being labeled as such, then reading from the same people gloating over
the deaths of caseworkers, and clearly expressed desire for me
personally to be killed I think I'm perfectly logical in my actions.

Would you ignore such statements and not consider them threats?

If I said that I hate, despise, and wished to see killed all electronic
information systems administrators and ID Doan as one, should he not
take notice and keep track of my statements just in case?

Would it be logical for him to assume I meant him no harm?

The logic of these children is precious.

Kane

Ron

For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â?"noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds
departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
â?"noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
â?"Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.








  #127  
Old December 5th 06, 06:51 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,380
Default Greg, it's a 'must read.' Gloating or Ill Wishes vs Threatsof violence

On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a
suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of
the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to
this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada
to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring
qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that
actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel
suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not
in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or
state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or
belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan

So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.

  #128  
Old December 5th 06, 06:53 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
Doan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,380
Default Greg, it's a 'must read.' Gloating or Ill Wishes vs Threatsof violence

On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Ron wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:

"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:

"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a
suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of
the
complainant.
Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.
If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to
this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada
to
defamation
(libel and slander).
Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring
qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that
actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."
Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel
suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not
in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.
No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.
If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or
state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.


Ron

Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or
belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron
Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.
Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan
So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.

  #129  
Old December 5th 06, 07:25 PM posted to alt.support.child-protective-services,alt.parenting.spanking,alt.support.foster-parents
0:->
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,968
Default Greg, it's a 'must read.' Gloating or Ill Wishes vs Threats of violence


Doan wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Ron wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:

"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:

"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a
suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of
the
complainant.
Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.
If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to
this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada
to
defamation
(libel and slander).
Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring
qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that
actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."
Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel
suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not
in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.
No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.
If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or
state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.


Ron

Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or
belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron
Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.
Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan
So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.
Doan
Anytime truth is not factual it is not a defense of any kind. What you
believe to be truth may indeed not be based on facts. Facts are always
the
truth, but sometimes the truth is not factual.

Ron

If the truth is not factual then, by definition, it is not the truth!
Doan
As I have been saying, Truth is perception. Truth can be based on faith,
fact cannot. Therefore truth is not always factual and can change
depending
on the individuals perspective. Fact is immutable, it cannot be changed.

Ron

Do yourself a favor and look it up in a dictionary, Ron. Fact and truth
are synonymous!

Doan

The dictionary has nothing to do with it doan. This is a philosophical
discussion, and dictionaries don't do philosophy.


Even the dictionaries make plain that the question of "truth" and "fact"
in the law is open to interpretation there.

Otherwise we wouldn't need judges and juries.

Just pop the case "facts" and the "truth" into a logical program for
analysis and comparison with known facts and truth and out would come
the finding.

" 4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable."

Yet they call them "facts."

For instance, the truth of this statement, an example from below is in
dispute. Rome experienced many setbacks in it's colonies...stretched far
too thinly. There is some evidence showing that lead was a popular
cooking and eating utensil manufacturing metal.

So this "truth" is highly questionable:

"12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire."

It's an opinion. A philosophical question, when using the word "moral"
to define a 'truth.'

It is not factual.

So not synonymous as claimed.


Synonyms 1. fact. 2. veracity. 7. sincerity, candor, frankness. 10.
precision, exactness.
Antonyms 1. falsehood. 2, 4, 7. falsity.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Random House, Inc. 2006.

Q.E.D!

Doan


It doesn't apply in this case, Doan.

Your choice of "synonymous" as a comparison bettween truth and fact
fails to account for the meaning of that word.

Are you presuming that "synonymous" means precisely the same?

From you own source:


syn·o·nym /ˈsɪnənɪm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[sin-uh-nim] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun
1. a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the
language, as joyful, elated, glad.
2. a word or expression accepted as another name for something, as
Arcadia for pastoral simplicity; metonym.
3. Biology. one of two or more scientific names applied to a single
taxon.
[Origin: 1400–50; L synÅ?nymum Gk synnymon, n. use of neut. of
synnymos /ˌsɪnəˈnɪmɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[sin-uh-nim-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc.
2006.

It is not exact...as in, from the above:

1.a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the
language, as joyful, elated, glad.

Notice the 'nearly?'

That would be both Ron's point, and mine, I believe.

Truth and fact are not always the "same" even if they are 'synonymous.'
'Nearly' says your argument won't cut it.

Q.E.D.

0:-]



Your point about dictionaries and philosophy is well taken, even if
dictionaries do include philosophical considerations.

We are left with this question, from the subject field, Gloating or Ill
Wishes vs Threats of Violence.

The argument of those that oppose me on this are based on the situation
now...and I have made it clear I am discussing outcomes. That is, should
violence be visited on me or mine, or Donald Fisher and his, then the
sentiments being expressed about "CPS Caseworkers" of which I am accused
of being, will take on an entirely new light.

I posted a quote, with link, that made plain "connotation" was arguable
as a libel or slander charge definition...even if true in fact.

Fundamental mindsets have a difficult time wrapping themselves,
apparently, around time and circumstances having an effect on charges
and claims.

I find this amusing.

Doan will continue to split hairs, rather than deal with the real issue.

Expressing desires for others injury or death mean nothing. Until of
course there is an injury or death.

That is the only reason I keep track of the babbling of I'll wishes and
"gloating" over killings of caseworkers.

Since I'm accuse of being one, though I am not, nor have I ever been,
being labeled as such, then reading from the same people gloating over
the deaths of caseworkers, and clearly expressed desire for me
personally to be killed I think I'm perfectly logical in my actions.

Would you ignore such statements and not consider them threats?

If I said that I hate, despise, and wished to see killed all electronic
information systems administrators and ID Doan as one, should he not
take notice and keep track of my statements just in case?

Would it be logical for him to assume I meant him no harm?

The logic of these children is precious.

Kane

Ron

For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â?"noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds
departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
â?"noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.

 




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