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#21
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Always the Clown! was The Kids just make these things up toget back at their parents ...
Greegor wrote: Kane, While I understand that you still BELIEVE in the cycle of violence, could you please pass the GAO information to your friend LaVonne? Giggle -- LaVonne can read, and she actually read Kane's post. GAO did not disprove the cycle of violence. I knew this and Kane pointed it out. Only you didn't seem to understand what you had read. Isn't it better if you keep your own side better informed? Still working on the research and null hypothesis, the research methodology, method of sample selection along with justification, and statistical analysis? Remember, you were the one with the hypothesis. What you posted would have failed an undergraduate course for a simple literature review hypothesis. So, let's get on with that research proposal, okay? Perhaps it will bruise her EGO less if you tell her. Personally, I'm crushed. My ego, in fact, my entire sense of self-worth is tied to your posts. But I'm sure you knew that, being one of the most important and influential people in my life whose well-researched and well-informed opinions form many of my guiding principles. After writing for several hours, I love the break and the entertainment you provide. LaVonne |
#22
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The Kids just make these things up to get back at their parents...
0:- wrote: Greegor wrote: Kane, While I understand that you still BELIEVE in the cycle of violence, Nope. I KNOW that it is a fact. The Cycle of Violence not only is proven scientifically but by common sense. We model the behavior we want our children to copy. Why is that, do you suppose? And they do copy us. could you please pass the GAO information to your friend LaVonne? I daresay LaVonne is better informed than I. And we will decide if we are "friends," Greg, not some ****-assed little insinuating liar like you. Oh, stab me in the heart! I thought Greegor said you were my friend. I've relied on him for so long, I cannot imagine making independent and mutual decisions regarding friendship. Isn't it better if you keep your own side better informed? Then I'd have to ask her to inform me, Greg. She is actively engaged in her profession day to day. I have moved to other things, like the meth problem in the use. I no longer follow child abuse issues as closely as before. She'd be more up to date. I'd come to the information by and by, of course. Perhaps it will bruise her EGO less if you tell her. You think her ego is bruised by you making your claim? I'm totally crushed. Be gentle and let me down easy. For so many years, my ego and my entire self worth has been determined by Greegor's opinion of me. Maybe it will be less painful coming from you. Well, I'll risk YOU bruising it even more, and request that you provide the proof of your claim...that The Cycle of Abuse is not true. Oh, don't challenge Greegor like that. He's too well-read, too informed, and too knowledgeable. He'll just hurt me again with his vast understanding of research and his knowledge base. I can't take it! And now he has a hypothesis for a research study that no peer-reviewed research journal could possibly refuse. Did you read his methodology and statistical design? Brilliant! Sigh -- I'm finished and my ego is shot. Go ahead. Don't worry any more about her feelings than you do abused children. Oh please tell Greegor to worry more about my feelings that those of stupid abused children. Those children probably just lied anyway. And even when they are bruised and bleeding, they probably lied so they could get back at their parents. I'm the one that matters, and don't let Greegor hurt me any more! Oh, and will you be my friend? Greegor says you are my friend. Lay The Truth on her, little Greg. Lordy I love Greegor's posts. I don't know what they do for the future of children, but they certainly can be fun (grin)! LaVonne 0:- |
#23
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The Kids just make these things up to get back at their parents ...
LaVonne:
Please acknowledge that you got this! http://www.ncrj.org/GAOCycle.htm The GAO Report on the Cycle-of-Abuse Theory Cycle of Sexual Abuse: Research Inconclusive About Whether Child Victims Become Adult Abusers (Letter Report, 09/13/96, GAO/GGD-96-178). Easier to read PDF version http://www.gao.gov/archive/1996/gg96178.pdf Kane! This is for you! DRUG ABUSE Research Shows Treatment Is Effective, but Benefits May Be OVERSTATED http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/he98072.pdf |
#24
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The Kids just make these things up to get back at their parents...
Greegor wrote:
LaVonne: Please acknowledge that you got this! http://www.ncrj.org/GAOCycle.htm The GAO Report on the Cycle-of-Abuse Theory Cycle of Sexual Abuse: Research Inconclusive About Whether Child Victims Become Adult Abusers (Letter Report, 09/13/96, GAO/GGD-96-178). Easier to read PDF version http://www.gao.gov/archive/1996/gg96178.pdf Gave you a long extensive response on this Greg, and not only pointed out what proves you are mistaken, the Cycle of Sexual Abuse is not bogus, but still in active research. All one has to do is read the comments in the report to see that. And much of it admits that the research that tended to show less correlation was either weak or lacked key components required for authoritative outcomes. In other words, Greg it's not disproved. Or were you just doing LaVonne a favor? Kane! This is for you! DRUG ABUSE Research Shows Treatment Is Effective, but Benefits May Be OVERSTATED http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/he98072.pdf Thank you. Do you have an opinion or argument you wish to express? Do you think that possibly in the ensuing 8 years, there might have been a bit of progress? Nothing in this in any way refutes my statements in these ngs, and you might want to address this one to Doug, as HE is the one that claims drug abuse treatment for Meth addicts is as effective as for others. I suspect he'll have a similar response, if he is having an honesty day, as reports since would likely be more informative. Seems like none, though, is all that effective, eh? Do you wish to argue that since benefits are "overstated" that this is sufficient cause to end programs? 0:- -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#25
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The Kids just make these things up to get back at their parents ...
23 different studies found no correlation.
Even if you fake up one, it'll have a long way to go to overcome what GAO found out in 1996. |
#26
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The Kids just make these things up to get back at their parents...
Greegor wrote:
23 different studies found no correlation. Even if you fake up one, it'll have a long way to go to overcome what GAO found out in 1996. You have yet to cite and reference the exactly statements in context. The truth is the context shows exactly what LaVonne said, and what I said. The GAO report of STUDIES did not show that the CSA is not proven to be bogus. When you find a clear claim that the CSA is NOT true let us know. -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#27
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Cycle of Abuse is bogus
Kane wrote
If it's just my belief, why would I ask you for proof of what you claim refutes my "belief?" You affirm "Cycle of Abuse" based on ""belief"" even though there has never been any proof besides anecdotes. I even told you that I know of a case that supports the idea of "Cycle of Abuse" but without statistical correlation it is nothing more than an anecdote or "isolated incident". Did you see a disgusting case and become determined to exaggerate an anecdote into a truism? I saw a disgusting case but decided that it must be anecdotal only, citing GAO reports. I'll give you this: I do believe there is a "Cycle Of Abuse" BUT at some percentage level. Can you PROVE the percentage or will you go on and on acting as if victims always perpetrate? Hazard a guess as to the PERCENTAGE, Kane? What percent of victims later perpetrate? SHOULD people in agencies presume guilt, or just have a bias about a person based on this? |
#28
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Cycle of Abuse is bogus
Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote If it's just my belief, why would I ask you for proof of what you claim refutes my "belief?" You affirm "Cycle of Abuse" based on ""belief"" even though there has never been any proof besides anecdotes. Wrong. Read the GOA report itself. I looks at both those whose research show it is, and that it isn't. Lack of 'consensus," Greg? Means BOTH sides do not agree. Now if the report said they HAD consensus that the Cycle of SEXUAL Abuse (get your terms straight...Cycle of Abuse is used for other meanings) did NOT exist, you'd have a solid case. Did it say that? I even told you that I know of a case that supports the idea of "Cycle of Abuse" but without statistical correlation it is nothing more than an anecdote or "isolated incident". Greg, you can't claim "means nothing" in such circumstances. You can say it lacks causal proof by research standards, but you cannot simply say, "means nothing." Of course it means something. Thousands of practitioners SEE it constantly. Of course it "means" something. Did you see a disgusting case and become determined to exaggerate an anecdote into a truism? Nope. I saw hundreds of my own, and read cases of hundreds (probably thousands during my long career), where the molester (in our cases mostly children themselves - teens) had in fact been molested. And in many cases the parents ... the perpetrators ... related in their own life history that they too had been molested. I saw a disgusting case but decided that it must be anecdotal only, citing GAO reports. That's nice. The GAO does not support that there is NO COSA, but that some research supports it and some does not. Lack of consensus simply means people don't all agree. I'll give you this: I do believe there is a "Cycle Of Abuse" BUT at some percentage level. Can you PROVE the percentage or will you go on and on acting as if victims always perpetrate? One, no, I cannot prove to the standards you require, Greg, because you are in denial when it comes to science. You have argued against social science research, so obviously unless I personally kill and dissect a few hundred victims as experimental subjects, for the TRUE scientific method, YOU aren't going to accept, is that not correct? Tell us what standard you insist on, and possibly I can answer that question. You are not as good as Doan, but you are just as stupid. Hazard a guess as to the PERCENTAGE, Kane? I cannot, nor can anyone else with any precision. You have read the speculation. Most, and I agree, victims of sexual molestation as children (females especially) do NOT grow up to be molesters. This does NOT, however, clarify...as the GAO report is specific about...just what factors went into them escaping offending. Age at victimization, frequency, who the perp was, what happened, duration, how disclosure was responded to, the kind of help given or withheld, the developmental level of the victim, and even their general health and intelligence, all play a part. Thus, it's not really possible to 'guess.' All I can say, and all I have said, is that among PERPS, there is a fairly high number that report being sexually abused as children. Even those, as I have told you, are not 100% believable. My shrink friend in therapeutic work with adult offenders would put it, if memory serves me, at about 20%. That, Greg, is serious enough to give attention to. Not to take someone's children away (as does NOT happen, liar) but to be concerned about. In another thread, Greg, on the "Famous Adoption" that turned into a child molest by the adoptive father you insisted the agency failed to investigate thoroughly enough. Which puts you right between that proverbial rock and that inevitable hard place. What if they HAD found out he was sexually abused as a child? Would that be sufficient to deny him adopting? If so, Greg smirk why? What percent of victims later perpetrate? You pretend to claim 0:- that you have read the report and you ask that? That is an unknown for two reasons: there isn't enough data to come up with a definitive number to analyze, and there are too many victims where no report is every made. It's impossible to claim a number and no one does. They speculate. For the purposes of CPS, however, the question has to be turned around. If they have a case with suspected sexual abuse was the suspected person sexually abused as a child? Then, you have something to be concerned about....remember YOUR argument that CPS FAILED in the "FAMOUS ADOPTION" thread? Why would YOU make the claim if YOU did not believe that there WAS a risk of some kind in a person who has been sexually abused sexually abusing their child or others? SHOULD people in agencies presume guilt, or just have a bias about a person based on this? No. One, they do not presume guilt. They investigate. And their bias is protecting the child. So they investigate. One of the questions they ask about and investigate, is if the person has been sexually abused. After thousands and thousands of cases with founded sexual abuse having that component...that the perp was themselves sexually abused as a child, don't you think they should pay attention? You mistake an academic challenge for a practical application requirement. CPS would be remiss, just as you appeared to be arguing in the "Famous Adoption" thread if they did NOT give considerable attention to the possibility the perp who was molested molested in reaction and or many of the other reasons attached to being a victim acting out. Your game is to pretend 0:- that CPS is wrong no matter what it does. Isn't that your pretense, Greg? 0:- Or do you just pretend to pretend? Pretendingly yours, Kane -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else) |
#29
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Cycle of Abuse is bogus
Kane wrote
Thousands of practitioners SEE it constantly. Of course it "means" something. Practitioners of what? The dark arts? Perhaps "seeing it constantly" is an affectation and should be treated. Kane wrote Nope. I saw hundreds of my own, You're a psych patient posing as a psych professional. So was Curio Jones. |
#30
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Cycle of Abuse is bogus
LaVonne wrote
there is no way you can claim that this prooves Can you proove it does exist? Please provide your research! Not prose, not descriptions, not propaganda, proove it! |
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