Britain May Soon Outlaw Spanking

And if this goes through, it'll be one more country that cannot properly
discipline its children. There is a world of difference between a proper
spanking and outright abuse. Very young children still need discipline, but
they're not going to listen to verbal reason.

(Daniel) wrote in message ...

Agreed - most of the smacks I got were done in the heat of the moment - but the
times I screwed up, and thought I might get smacked I did feel awful - god
knows how I'd have coped if my parents had done their spankings after half an
hour or so "calming down"

Right. I feel for the poor kids who were forced to go & choose which
belt would be used for their beating, or sent into the yard to select
a branch or "switch" as some have called it. It's psychological
abuse.

Each child is different, but when my son was very young he had a natural
inclination to want to please us and do what he thought was the right thing
to do. I don't believe young children are ever naughty deliberately.

You just have to find the right way to communicate. Sometimes it helps to
tell them a story (that you might have to make up) of how things can go
wrong if you don't do the sensible thing...

e.g. say your child won't cooperate with you brushing their teeth. Then you
might tell them about someone who had terible cavities and lost all their
teeth and couldn't eat or talk properly anymore... The child will be
brushing his/her own teeth before you know it.

OTOH give them a spanking and they will cry and hate and fear you. They
might cooperate next time but the moment your back is turned they will try
and get away with not brushing.

"GI Trekker" wrote in message
...
And if this goes through, it'll be one more country that cannot properly
discipline its children. There is a world of difference between a proper
spanking and outright abuse. Very young children still need discipline,
but
they're not going to listen to verbal reason.

I do agree with you and bthe many others that there is a problem trying to
make it law!

On 19 Nov 2003 16:16:12 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

Greg correctly understands what the Supreme Court held in

Ingraham v Wright

That trying to control the misuse of abusive CP in schools is not or
is adequately addressed by the use of civil suits?

That is had nothing to do with parents and children, but with school
personnel and children?

Naw, I'd say he missed by a mile.

Here, read and weep:

http://tinyurl.com/vl5a

And while you are at it find the sentence, paragraph, or whatever you
can find that shows that this finding gave parents the right to spank
and post it back here. We'd love to see what you can dream up.

This bogus claim has been made for years....and it didn't even give or
stop permission of the state to do was they wished in the matter of
spanking.


There is also a problem with expecting to
force a political position onto somebody in
this way, when spanking is completely legal.
Having a court order a person to change a
political view of something completely legal

Yessir.

Are you saying, "bendaredonedat"?

I thought so.

t gives the people
in the class the feeling they are in the
American Gulag.

Well said! Well, at least you are a participant in the compelled
Child Abuse
Industry SCAM. ;-))

Greegor the Whore? I would have sworn he was a victim...r r r r

It also violates the 14th Amendment right
to hold unpopular views.


Gosh, I wish folks could get together and force a FED LAWSUIT.

They aren't as stupid as you, or as childlish, Caladium.

Cross state lines. Is there anything like this on bigclassaction
site?

Slaver, drool, spittle flying, the Sap Leaking Pine Tree delivers yet
another brilliant essay on the evils of CPS.


Disrespecting parent rights does not help kids.

Indeed, it fosters DISRESPECT FOR THE ENTIRE system.

I don't think CPS gives, or should give, a whit for "RESPECT" or dis.

It's purview is child protection, not popularity.

Kind of like Kane's potty mouth and vulgarity.
That really fits when supposedly trying to
bring civility to a situation.

It is the refuge of the coward and those who have no real argument.
Just AD
HOMS.

I'm so tickled that you don't use ad hom style posting..... r r r r

Just one thoughtful sharing after another all backed by solid academic
sourcing with easy to access citations...yessireeebob...

From the Latin "to the man". As in, when you have no rational
response you
ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT THE MESSENGER.

Well, I have to admit to a fit of pique now and then at how you talk
about me in your posts...tsk....

Doesn't work at all. In fact, it encourages backlash. So keep it
up, K-9.

Funny, I notice a resounding silence, from all but you, and the
sockpuppet dipwads that can't figure out how to mount a decent flame
let alone a real argument with factual support.

Now if I have to be afraid of "backlash" from you and The Whore, I'll
tell you, I'm just terrified.

R R R R R R R RR R R R R R R R R R R R R .... gasp.... R R R R R R R
R

Please, you are breaking me up. Even with that A number one report
back on my annual physical I am old yah know and yah wouldn't want to
be the death of me, wouldyahnow? R R R R R R R

wheeze

Kane

"Chris" wrote in message
...

British parents set to lose right to smack children

Gaby Hinsliff, chief political correspondent
Sunday November 16, 2003
The Observer

Parents' right to smack their children would finally be abolished under a
historic attempt to outlaw physical punishment within the home.


I have 2 thoughts on this:

1. It is really pathetic that we need a law to keep us from hitting each
other. My favorite... I was at McPlayland with my son the other rainy day. A
mom intervened with her 4yo son who just hit another kid. "Don't hit" she
says as she smacks him on the behind.

2. Despite #1, it gives me the shivers to think of a government getting in
the middle of the family. I wish there was another way.


The
Government is expected to include new laws on protecting children from
abuse in the Queen's Speech next week, in response to the death of
Victoria Climbi, the little girl who was killed in London by her
great-aunt after social workers missed glaring signs that she was in
danger.

Labour MPs are planning to tack an amendment onto the Child Protection
Bill which would outlaw parental smacking, following warnings that too
many abusive parents cover up ill-treatment by insisting that bruises are
the result of 'normal' discipline. They are optimistic that Ministers will
allow a free vote on the issue.

'The abolition of a husband's right to beat his wife surely did something
about the status of women in our society, and in the same way this is
about another kind of domestic violence,' said David Hinchliffe, chair of
the Commons Health Select Committee.

'In every single classroom in this country there will be at least one
child getting hit [at home]. More than one child a week dies at the hands
of a parent or carer. For me, this is unfinished business and I want to
see this change through before I go,' he said.

Smacking has become a political hot potato, with Education Secretary
Charles Clarke said to be privately sympathetic to reform, but Downing
Street fearing an outcry over interfering in parents' behaviour. So far,
every attempt by MPs to get it banned has failed.

Two years ago, the Department of Health ruled out a ban, insisting that
most parents wanted the freedom to inflict discipline in any way they saw
fit.

Subsequent attempts by the Scottish Executive to ban parents from hitting
young children under two or from beating children with implements were
torpedoed last year by Assembly members after a public outcry, while
numerous attempts at Westminster to introduce Private Member's Bills
banning smacking have run into the sand.

However, MPs have noted that corporal punishment in schools was originally
abolished by a backbench amendment on a free vote, a device often used to
nod through social changes - including the legalisation of abortion -
which a Government finds too controversial to sign up to openly.

Hinchliffe was 'optimistic' Ministers would allow a free vote on smacking:
one recent survey found a majority of Labour MPs would back a ban if given
a free vote, making it overwhelmingly likely to be carried.

Although a study by the National Family and Parenting Institute last year
found there was no evidence that mild slaps delivered within a loving
relationship damaged a child, it concluded that physical punishment did
not work in changing behaviour - and there was statistical evidence that
parents who smacked were more likely to slide into more serious abuse.

More than 80 MPs of all parties have signed a Commons motion backing the
move, while Lord Laming - the judge who held a landmark inquiry into the
Climbi case - hinted strongly in evidence to Hinchliffe's committee that
he was personally against parental smacking.

However, many parents may fear being hauled through the courts for a slap
that had been delivered in the heat of the moment. Three-quarters of
parents in one Department of Health survey admitted they had hit their
children.

Hinchliffe will publish a presentation Bill - a device to raise the
profile of an issue, but which does not bring a change in law - on
Tuesday, calling for the abolition of the defence of 'reasonable
chastisement', under which a parent can defend hitting a child by arguing
it was proportionate discipline. But the real aim is to amend the Bill
when it is introduced in the coming year.

The Child Protection Bill is one of several child-centred initiatives
expected in the Queen's Speech - the Government's annual list of
legislation that it expects to push through - and in its manifesto before
the next general election.

"GI Trekker" wrote in message
...
And if this goes through, it'll be one more country that cannot properly
discipline its children. There is a world of difference between a proper
spanking and outright abuse. Very young children still need discipline,
but
they're not going to listen to verbal reason.

Yes they do listen to verbal reason. AND they know to trust the parent. My 3
yo listens very well to verbal reason. Look up the root of the word
"discipline" in the dictionary. What do YOU learn when someone smacks you
down besides hate and fear?

S

On 19 Nov 2003 09:57:56 -0800, (Shorty
Blackwell) wrote:

(Daniel) wrote in message ...

Agreed - most of the smacks I got were done in the heat of the
moment - but the
times I screwed up, and thought I might get smacked I did feel
awful - god
knows how I'd have coped if my parents had done their spankings
after half an
hour or so "calming down"

Right. I feel for the poor kids who were forced to go & choose which
belt would be used for their beating, or sent into the yard to select
a branch or "switch" as some have called it. It's psychological
abuse.

From project no spank web site at:

http://nospank.net/lndgrn.htm


"Never Violence
By Astrid Lindgren
Reprinted from Father Times, Spring 1995, Volume 3, Issue 4. Astrid
Lindgren is author of Pippi Longstocking.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Above all, I believe that there should never be any violence. In 1978
I received a peace prize in West Germany for my books, and I gave an
accepting speech that I called just that: "Never Violence." And in
that speech I told a story from my own experience.

When I was about 20 years old, I met an old pastor's wife who told me
that when she was young and had her first child, she didn't believe in
striking children, although spanking kids with a switch pulled from a
tree was standard punishment at the time. But one day when her son was
four or five, he did something that she felt warranted a spanking -
the first of his life. And she told him that he would have to go
outside and find a switch for her to hit him with. The boy was gone a
long time. And when he came back in, he was crying. He said to her,
"Mama, I couldn't find a switch, but here's a rock that you can throw
at me."

All of a sudden the mother understood how the situation felt from the
child's point of view: that if my mother wants to hurt me, then it
makes no difference what she does it with; she might as well do it
with a stone. And the mother took the boy onto her lap and they both
cried. Then she laid the rock on a shelf in the kitchen to remind
herself forever: never violence. And that is something I think
everyone should keep in mind. Because violence begins in the nursery—
one can raise children into violence."

ChrisScaife wrote in message
...
Each child is different, but when my son was very young he had a natural
inclination to want to please us and do what he thought was the right
thing
to do. I don't believe young children are ever naughty deliberately.

What age are you saying aren't naughty deliberately? I agree that there is
an age where that is true. My 3 year old certainly is naughty deliberately.
I tell her the line she's not to cross and she will go and stand on it-then
(in certain moods) put one toe over it.
You just have to find the right way to communicate. Sometimes it helps to
tell them a story (that you might have to make up) of how things can go
wrong if you don't do the sensible thing...

I don't always want to do the sensible thing, so I don't see that a child
would.

e.g. say your child won't cooperate with you brushing their teeth. Then
you
might tell them about someone who had terible cavities and lost all their
teeth and couldn't eat or talk properly anymore... The child will be
brushing his/her own teeth before you know it.

And you might give them a fear for life of having their teeth fall out. dd#1
recently was introduced to a nice tale of wobbly teeth and I had great
difficulty comforting her, as she carefully felt every tooth to see if it
was going to fall out.
I can hear what you're saying about explaining to them, but I don't think
that telling stories/explaining will always work. Dd#1 chants quite happily
"I need to clean my teeth because I might get little holes. Little holes
turn into big holes, big holes can turn into tooth ouches" ("Topsy and Tim"
book) while still refusing to have her teeth brushed. Not that I would
think that was a good reason to spank any child.However I do find that
finding something fun to do helps. We ask her to make a loud noise while
we're brushing her teeth. It may deafen the brusher, but it makes us all
laugh!
Debbie

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:15:46 -0000, "Welches"
wrote:

ChrisScaife wrote in message
...

Each child is different, but when my son was very young
he had a natural inclination to want to please us and do
what he thought was the right thing to do. I don't believe
young children are ever naughty deliberately.

What age are you saying aren't naughty deliberately? I agree
that there is an age where that is true. My 3 year old certainly
is naughty deliberately.

This depends on your definition of *naughty,* I suppose.

I tell her the line she's not to cross and she will go and stand
on it-then (in certain moods) put one toe over it.

I guess the question here is why are you telling her that this is
a line she must not cross. Testing the boundaries of the rules
is something children do especially if the rules seem unreasonable
to them. It's not actually *naughty,* it's a developmental stage
in which they are trying to figure out what the rules are and why
they should obey them and whether or not their parents are
consistent in their behavior towards the rules.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:15:46 -0000, "Welches"
wrote:

ChrisScaife wrote in message
...

You just have to find the right way to communicate. Sometimes
it helps to tell them a story (that you might have to make up) of
how things can go wrong if you don't do the sensible thing...

I don't always want to do the sensible thing, so I don't see that
a child would.

With a child though, he is just beginning to learn what the sensible
thing is. More often then not, he does want to do what is *right*
to please you or because he is figuring out what is *right* in his
world.

e.g. say your child won't cooperate with you brushing their
teeth. Then you might tell them about someone who had
terible cavities and lost all their teeth and couldn't eat or talk
properly anymore... The child will be brushing his/her own
teeth before you know it.

And you might give them a fear for life of having their teeth fall
out. dd#1 recently was introduced to a nice tale of wobbly teeth
and I had great difficulty comforting her, as she carefully felt
every tooth to see if it was going to fall out.

You do have to know your child.

But that is the point. You have to communicate on the child's
level and with the style that is best for him or her.

I might not use Chris's story, but I might use humor or some
other way of getting the necessity across. Also children learn
what they live quite early, so a child who sees you brushing
your teeth and for whom you explain the process and why
you do it will most likely be less resistant.

Another way to go is to have the dentist explain or to use
some of the preschool dental health materials to help her
to understand and to allow you to do it.

Or you may want to get her a special toothbrush with a
character she likes. Sometimes too, letting her brush your
teeth may show her that its ok for you to do hers.

I can hear what you're saying about explaining to them, but
I don't think that telling stories/explaining will always work.
Dd#1 chants quite happily "I need to clean my teeth because
I might get little holes. Little holes turn into big holes, big holes
can turn into tooth ouches" ("Topsy and Tim" book) while still
refusing to have her teeth brushed.

Well, she is just starting to figure out what that means and
if she has never had a toothache the concept is a bit abstract
although it can be related to other *ouches.*

Not that I would think that was a good reason to spank any
child.However I do find that finding something fun to do
helps. We ask her to make a loud noise while we're
brushing her teeth. It may deafen the brusher, but it makes
us all laugh!

You see? You found a solution that works for you and your child
that is a positive one. The point is that you don't need to punish
the child, but to communicate and use positive encouragement
as you did in this case for all of the *misbehavior* you see.

And also, it really helps to take a fresh look at what you are
defining as misbehavior and naughtiness to see if their is
an underlying reason for the behavior and to figure out how
that need can be met with acceptable behavior you can redirect
her into.

Debbie


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits