Saddam: Physically Punished in the WOMB!

On 28 Dec 2003, Chris wrote:

Saddam was physically punished as a child... and look at how HE turned out:
he became president of his country!

So was Bush! ;-)

All sarcasm aside, it would probably be as close to impossible to find a
murderous tyrant anywhere in human history who was not physically punished as a
child - as hard as finding an unspanked former child among death row inmates as
Maurer (1974) tried and failed to do in her study of San Quentin death row
prisoners.

They were corporal punished in the EXTREME! IT IS A FAR STRETCH TO
CLAIM THAT THESE INMATES WERE SPANKED! Maurer also found that 98% of
college freshmen and 95% of professional were spanked! Chris is once
again EXPOSED! ;-)

Doan

Doan wrote
So was Bush! ;-)

Kane and the ultraliberal bunch probably think
Bush is Satan himself. Carter or Al Gore would
have been my choices for this example.

Maurer also found that 98%
of college freshmen and 95%
of professional were spanked!
Chris is once again EXPOSED! ;-)

Chris/Kane:

How do you explain
the correlation that 98% of freshmen were spanked?
...or the 95% correlation with professionals?

Isn't it kind of devious to keep harping on
the correlation with inmates but ignore those?

How can you use one correlation
and ignore the other two?

Doan wrote in message ...
On 28 Dec 2003, Chris wrote:

Saddam was physically punished as a child... and look at how HE turned out:
he became president of his country!

So was Bush! ;-)

All sarcasm aside, it would probably be as close to impossible to find a
murderous tyrant anywhere in human history who was not physically punished as a
child - as hard as finding an unspanked former child among death row inmates as
Maurer (1974) tried and failed to do in her study of San Quentin death row
prisoners.

They were corporal punished in the EXTREME!

Proof please. Citations would do nicely. And it does NOT of course go
to answering The Question, which is also the answer to this issue.

Do you think the parents of the SQ death row inmates would admit to
having done anything more than us CP on their children....rather like
spanking parents who come to this ng and claim they know where the
line is between spanking and abuse?

IT IS A FAR STRETCH TO
CLAIM THAT THESE INMATES WERE SPANKED!

Based on?

Maurer also found that 98% of
college freshmen and 95% of professional were spanked!

I was completely unaware that spanking caused people to go to college
and or become professionals.

Could you show the causal connection please?

I understand that brain monitoring studies (which I've cited here
before...so NO I'm not going to cite them yet again) show that the
portion of the brain identified as the seat of conscience is inactive
in the abused/spanked.

Hence I believe there might just be a varifiable causal connection
between spanking/abuse and criminality or violence or both.

Chris is once
again EXPOSED! ;-)

Yes he is, by golly: exposed as having beaten your sorry denying ass
years ago and made a complete fool of you that all you can do to save
face is continue to protect with more foolishness.

Doan

Now call me a couple of names, dance around and DON'T answer The
Question and hope it will all blow over eventually.

(Not while I'm alive little man)

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
Doan wrote in message ...

Well now, let us see if Doan the Demander has responded to any of my
requests to follow up on his outrageous statements and claims in this
post.

No, nothing. No response...yet he's had time to post about other
things.

Shall we see what he DIDN'T respond to this time?


On 28 Dec 2003, Chris wrote:

Saddam was physically punished as a child... and look at how HE turned out:
he became president of his country!

So was Bush! ;-)

All sarcasm aside, it would probably be as close to impossible to find a
murderous tyrant anywhere in human history who was not physically punished as a
child - as hard as finding an unspanked former child among death row inmates as
Maurer (1974) tried and failed to do in her study of San Quentin death row
prisoners.

They were corporal punished in the EXTREME!

Proof please.

Gosh, could it be that Doan can't begin to prove that Maurer studied
"spanked" as well as "abused?"

Why doesn't he answer?

Citations would do nicely. And it does NOT of course go
to answering The Question, which is also the answer to this issue.

Do you think the parents of the SQ death row inmates would admit to
having done anything more than us CP on their children....rather like
spanking parents who come to this ng and claim they know where the
line is between spanking and abuse?

IT IS A FAR STRETCH TO
CLAIM THAT THESE INMATES WERE SPANKED!

Based on?

And he hasn't shown a whit of proof that some inmates were NOT just
"spanked."

Maurer also found that 98% of
college freshmen and 95% of professional were spanked!

I was completely unaware that spanking caused people to go to college
and or become professionals.

Could you show the causal connection please?

Gosh, this should be easy for Doan. Certainly he a college boy
himself, must have some proof that spanking causes people to go to
college. He was and he went and look at the fine product of loving
parenting he turned out to be.

I understand that brain monitoring studies (which I've cited here
before...so NO I'm not going to cite them yet again) show that the
portion of the brain identified as the seat of conscience is inactive
in the abused/spanked.

No comment Doan, or are you having your own brain scanned for to loci
of conscience and its lack of activity?

Hence I believe there might just be a varifiable causal connection
between spanking/abuse and criminality or violence or both.

Chris is once
again EXPOSED! ;-)

Yes he is, by golly: exposed as having beaten your sorry denying ass
years ago and made a complete fool of you that all you can do to save
face is continue to protect with more foolishness.

Doan

Now call me a couple of names, dance around and DON'T answer The
Question and hope it will all blow over eventually.

In another post this very evening he did just that. Claimed I ran,
when all I did was set some very easy criteria for the "debate" he
challenged me to.

Nothing to it, but so far, no response from him.

(Not while I'm alive little man)

Kane

So, I guess I'll have to just talk with you folks, since Doan has cut
himself off by making challenges to me that when I respond to he seems
unable to respond to except for more babbling nonsense.

Gee, and I've so missed those "double dare yahs." Yet after he "double
dares" and I respond all goes silent except for claims I'M NOT willing
to debate.

How strange a mind he must have. Well, some children do respond to
being spanked by growing up habitual and compulsive unconscious liars.
Do you suppose he can't see his own lies?

tsk, how very sad....

.....{:-

Poor Doan.

Kane

We've been through this before, Kane. Do you want another go of it? :-)

a123sdg321

On 30 Dec 2003, Kane wrote:

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
Doan wrote in message ...

Well now, let us see if Doan the Demander has responded to any of my
requests to follow up on his outrageous statements and claims in this
post.

No, nothing. No response...yet he's had time to post about other
things.

Shall we see what he DIDN'T respond to this time?


On 28 Dec 2003, Chris wrote:

Saddam was physically punished as a child... and look at how HE turned out:
he became president of his country!

So was Bush! ;-)

All sarcasm aside, it would probably be as close to impossible to find a
murderous tyrant anywhere in human history who was not physically punished as a
child - as hard as finding an unspanked former child among death row inmates as
Maurer (1974) tried and failed to do in her study of San Quentin death row
prisoners.

They were corporal punished in the EXTREME!

Proof please.

Gosh, could it be that Doan can't begin to prove that Maurer studied
"spanked" as well as "abused?"

Why doesn't he answer?

As you can see, the categories a NEVER, RARE, MODERATE, SEVERE and
EXTREME. What you claimed above is just utter NONSENSE!

..and if you pay close attention you'll notice the word
spanking isn't in the title or columns...just physical punishment.

LOL! I just love the anti-spanking zealotS. They claimed that spanking
is a beating and now... spanking is not physical punishment!!! Logic
and the anti-spanking zealotS, are they mutually exclusive? ;-)

On the other hand are you then assuming that professionals and college
freshman are some advanced form of life? R R R R

Where did I claim that, Kane? :-)

What with all the bashing of professionals in these ngs it appears
obvious why YOU can't figure out my argument.

Let's see! Spanking will improve you kids' chances of going to college
and becoming professionals, so don't spank your kids??? Logic and the
anti-spanking zealotS.... enough said. :-)

Too bad about you being spanked.

Yup! And anti-spanking zealotS are proud of the fact that a
"never-spanked" boy turned out like you! :-)

Doan


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Citations would do nicely. And it does NOT of course go
to answering The Question, which is also the answer to this issue.

Do you think the parents of the SQ death row inmates would admit to
having done anything more than us CP on their children....rather like
spanking parents who come to this ng and claim they know where the
line is between spanking and abuse?

IT IS A FAR STRETCH TO
CLAIM THAT THESE INMATES WERE SPANKED!

Based on?

And he hasn't shown a whit of proof that some inmates were NOT just
"spanked."

Maurer also found that 98% of
college freshmen and 95% of professional were spanked!

I was completely unaware that spanking caused people to go to college
and or become professionals.

Could you show the causal connection please?

Gosh, this should be easy for Doan. Certainly he a college boy
himself, must have some proof that spanking causes people to go to
college. He was and he went and look at the fine product of loving
parenting he turned out to be.

I understand that brain monitoring studies (which I've cited here
before...so NO I'm not going to cite them yet again) show that the
portion of the brain identified as the seat of conscience is inactive
in the abused/spanked.

No comment Doan, or are you having your own brain scanned for to loci
of conscience and its lack of activity?

Hence I believe there might just be a varifiable causal connection
between spanking/abuse and criminality or violence or both.

Chris is once
again EXPOSED! ;-)

Yes he is, by golly: exposed as having beaten your sorry denying ass
years ago and made a complete fool of you that all you can do to save
face is continue to protect with more foolishness.

Doan

Now call me a couple of names, dance around and DON'T answer The
Question and hope it will all blow over eventually.

In another post this very evening he did just that. Claimed I ran,
when all I did was set some very easy criteria for the "debate" he
challenged me to.

Nothing to it, but so far, no response from him.

(Not while I'm alive little man)

Kane

So, I guess I'll have to just talk with you folks, since Doan has cut
himself off by making challenges to me that when I respond to he seems
unable to respond to except for more babbling nonsense.

Gee, and I've so missed those "double dare yahs." Yet after he "double
dares" and I respond all goes silent except for claims I'M NOT willing
to debate.

How strange a mind he must have. Well, some children do respond to
being spanked by growing up habitual and compulsive unconscious liars.
Do you suppose he can't see his own lies?

tsk, how very sad....

....{:-

Poor Doan.

Kane

Doan wrote in message ...
We've been through this before, Kane. Do you want another go of it? :-)

a123sdg321

On 30 Dec 2003, Kane wrote:

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
Doan wrote in message ...

Well now, let us see if Doan the Demander has responded to any of my
requests to follow up on his outrageous statements and claims in this
post.

No, nothing. No response...yet he's had time to post about other
things.

Shall we see what he DIDN'T respond to this time?


On 28 Dec 2003, Chris wrote:

Saddam was physically punished as a child... and look at how HE turned out:
he became president of his country!

So was Bush! ;-)

All sarcasm aside, it would probably be as close to impossible to find a
murderous tyrant anywhere in human history who was not physically punished as a
child - as hard as finding an unspanked former child among death row inmates as
Maurer (1974) tried and failed to do in her study of San Quentin death row
prisoners.

They were corporal punished in the EXTREME!

Proof please.

Gosh, could it be that Doan can't begin to prove that Maurer studied
"spanked" as well as "abused?"

Why doesn't he answer?

As you can see,

Were? I don't "see" anything but your claim...the usual nonsense
because you are terrified of putting the actual citation up....knowing
it will crack your facade of self protection against the truth of your
own violent childhood.

the categories a NEVER, RARE, MODERATE, SEVERE and
EXTREME.

Yes, I know.

What you claimed above is just utter NONSENSE!

Ah, the old "Victory by Proclamation" ploy. Don't you ever get tired
of it?


.and if you pay close attention you'll notice the word
spanking isn't in the title or columns...just physical punishment.

LOL! I just love the anti-spanking zealotS. They claimed that spanking
is a beating and now... spanking is not physical punishment!!! Logic
and the anti-spanking zealotS, are they mutually exclusive? ;-)

Your logic matched your emotional dysfunction. That was NOT the point.
The point was you claiming ...

"They were corporal punished in the EXTREME!"

You are correct sir. The problem is it doesn't prove anything at all
but that they SAID they were. It was not a history collected from
OTHERS...just the inmates themselves.

You KNOW how good the data is in self reporting, do you not?

But what interests me much more, sucker, is that you took the bait.
Here's the whole quote with relevances included...that you of course
avoided:

After Effects of Physical Punishment

Adrenalin output increases sharply during fear, anger and physical
punishment. When this is prolonged or often repeated, the endocrine
balance fails to return to baseline. The victim becomes easily angered
and prone to poor impulse control and spontaneous violent outbursts.

Educational achievement is affected both directly and indirectly.
Studies of prisoners, delinquents, school drop-outs, college freshmen
and successful professionals are compared in the following composite
report.

D E G R E E O F P H Y S I C A L P U N I S H M E N T

Never Rare Moderate Severe Extreme
Violent inmates
at San Quentin 0 0 0 0 100%

Juvenile
Delinquents 0 2% 3% 31% 64%

High School
drop-outs 0 7% 23% 69% 0

College
freshmen 2% 23% 40% 33% 0

Professionals 5% 40% 36% 17% 0


Taking part in this survey we 200 psychologists who filled out
anonymous questionnaires, 372 college students at the University of
California, Davis and California State University at Fresno, 52 slow
track underachievers at Richmond High School. Delinquents were
interviewed by Dr. Ralph Welsh in Bridgeport, Connecticut and by Dr.
Alan Button in Fresno, California. Prisoner information was by
courtesy of Hobart Banks, M.S.W., counselor of difficult prisoners at
San Quentin Penitentiary, San Quentin, California.


So tell us Doan, what was the profession of all the professionals? R R
R R

Do you think they might have a bias? And they self reported. In fact
all these were by interview of the subjects, no background
research...so again, tell us what you know about self reporting as
reliable data?

Now be MMMMMMPHPHHHH...R R R R R R honest, Doan. What about self
reporting?

On the other hand are you then assuming that professionals and college
freshman are some advanced form of life? R R R R

Where did I claim that, Kane? :-)

I guess I just assumed, knowing how desparately you are clasping
spanking-as-a-good-thing to your skinny little bosom, that you would
think both groups, by status, prove something in favor of your
argument. Was I wrong?

Why do you use them as part of your argument so often?

Gosh I wonder how many time you have come up with that 95% of
professionals were spanked...etc. number.

Let me see now........hhhmmmmm, yes, google tells all.

13 hits on Doan+95%.

Seems you are rather fond of that number, and I presume you are using
Maurer....or did you get the self reported "95%" from somewhere else?
Eh? R R R R

What with all the bashing of professionals in these ngs it appears
obvious why YOU can't figure out my argument.

Let's see! Spanking will improve you kids' chances of going to college
and becoming professionals, so don't spank your kids??? Logic and the
anti-spanking zealotS.... enough said. :-)

Too bad about you being spanked.

Yup! And anti-spanking zealotS are proud of the fact that a
"never-spanked" boy turned out like you! :-)

Gosh, you won't argue against spanking causes college attendance to go
up? I wonder why not?

And do you really want to suggest that a self reporting group of
prisoners in one of the nations toughest prisons, San Quentin, would
admit to being "spanked," that is only moderately or even never the
victim of physical punishment? R R R R

Lay it on me boy. I'd love to see you hack your way out of your own
jungle again. Are you EVER going to grow up?

Doan, you have done it again. The utter fool playing the utter fool to
the hilt.

Kane



Doan


Citations would do nicely. And it does NOT of course go
to answering The Question, which is also the answer to this issue.

Do you think the parents of the SQ death row inmates would admit to
having done anything more than us CP on their children....rather like
spanking parents who come to this ng and claim they know where the
line is between spanking and abuse?

IT IS A FAR STRETCH TO
CLAIM THAT THESE INMATES WERE SPANKED!

Based on?

And he hasn't shown a whit of proof that some inmates were NOT just
"spanked."

Maurer also found that 98% of
college freshmen and 95% of professional were spanked!

I was completely unaware that spanking caused people to go to college
and or become professionals.

Could you show the causal connection please?

Gosh, this should be easy for Doan. Certainly he a college boy
himself, must have some proof that spanking causes people to go to
college. He was and he went and look at the fine product of loving
parenting he turned out to be.

I understand that brain monitoring studies (which I've cited here
before...so NO I'm not going to cite them yet again) show that the
portion of the brain identified as the seat of conscience is inactive
in the abused/spanked.

No comment Doan, or are you having your own brain scanned for to loci
of conscience and its lack of activity?

Hence I believe there might just be a varifiable causal connection
between spanking/abuse and criminality or violence or both.

Chris is once
again EXPOSED! ;-)

Yes he is, by golly: exposed as having beaten your sorry denying ass
years ago and made a complete fool of you that all you can do to save
face is continue to protect with more foolishness.

Doan

Now call me a couple of names, dance around and DON'T answer The
Question and hope it will all blow over eventually.

In another post this very evening he did just that. Claimed I ran,
when all I did was set some very easy criteria for the "debate" he
challenged me to.

Nothing to it, but so far, no response from him.

(Not while I'm alive little man)

Kane

So, I guess I'll have to just talk with you folks, since Doan has cut
himself off by making challenges to me that when I respond to he seems
unable to respond to except for more babbling nonsense.

Gee, and I've so missed those "double dare yahs." Yet after he "double
dares" and I respond all goes silent except for claims I'M NOT willing
to debate.

How strange a mind he must have. Well, some children do respond to
being spanked by growing up habitual and compulsive unconscious liars.
Do you suppose he can't see his own lies?

tsk, how very sad....

....{:-

Poor Doan.

Kane

Carlson LaVonne wrote
Yes, he was physically punished. And just as Sadam
became president of his county, so did Bush. Both
became presidents and both were likely influenced
by the parenting they received, which is reflected
in how they lead.

LaVonne's official Job title is "Lecturer" at U of MN.
Also known as "Berkeley North".

Bush has the distinction of having been the
governor of a state that sets records in school
corporal punishment along with records in low
student achievement.

But what really galls you is that he's not a Socialist.

One thing about the Iowa Dem Caucuses is that it's
really interesting seeing Dems attacking Dems with
negative advertising blitzes over the last 6 months.

Spank you very much.

On 15 Jan 2004 04:31:40 -0800, (Greg Hanson)
wrote:

Carlson LaVonne wrote
Yes, he was physically punished. And just as Sadam
became president of his county, so did Bush. Both
became presidents and both were likely influenced
by the parenting they received, which is reflected
in how they lead.

LaVonne's official Job title is "Lecturer" at U of MN.
Also known as "Berkeley North".

Attempt to redirect thus mislead the reader. Sorry, bozo, we aren't
buying.

Tell us, Whore, what is YOUR job title again?

Bush has the distinction of having been the
governor of a state that sets records in school
corporal punishment along with records in low
student achievement.

But what really galls you is that he's not a Socialist.

But really galls you is that she is correct. Why would you change the
subject otherwise?

One thing about the Iowa Dem Caucuses is that it's
really interesting seeing Dems attacking Dems with
negative advertising blitzes over the last 6 months.

Boy oh boy, I guess you told her.

Spank you very much.

No, it's you that got and you that needs to continue to get spanked.
As for the children, no, you don't get to spank them anymore.

If you do we are going to get you.

Kane

Kane,

You have a good idea of what due process is. However, like so many
others, you fail to grasp its essence. The idea of innocent until
proven guilty, is generally, conceived to go hand in hand with the idea
of due process. The regulations, here in Maryland, do not cite
procedures that follow, de facto, due process. No proof needs to be
present, to remove a child from a parents custody. The right to a jury
is not granted in these civil hearings. There is also the test for
reasonableness. Roe v Wade was decided partly on the basis of it is
unreasonable for the state to interfere with a woman's right ot abortion
in the first trimester. Yes we want CPS hearings all to be criminal
charges, because they do not hold water otherwise, especially charges of
spanking a child. It is not reasonable for the state to interefere in a
parent's right to spank his or her child, at least in Maryland. But CPS
use the ambiguity of the regulations to produce undue hardship on
parents that do spank in order to force their social programing on them.
In CPS hearings the burden is placed on the parent to prove their
innocence. Now tell me again how this follows the tenets of due process?

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:12:13 -0500, "Bryan K. Zidek"
wrote:

Kane,

You have a good idea of what due process is.

Well, duh!

However, like so many
others, you fail to grasp its essence.

I'll bet you are going to tell me now.

The idea of innocent until
proven guilty, is generally, conceived to go hand in hand with the
idea
of due process.

This is the "essence" of due process? Could you clarify?

The regulations, here in Maryland, do not cite
procedures that follow, de facto, due process. No proof needs to be
present, to remove a child from a parents custody.

Please post the relevent statutes.

The right to a jury
is not granted in these civil hearings.

Mmmm...let me see now. No jury...mmmmhhhhhmmmm.

There is also the test for
reasonableness.

Hokay.

Roe v Wade was decided partly on the basis of it is
unreasonable for the state to interfere with a woman's right ot
abortion
in the first trimester.

Yes. I follow you so far.

Yes we want CPS hearings all to be criminal
charges, because they do not hold water otherwise, especially charges
of
spanking a child.

Oh, here we part company. No one has their child taken from them
permanently for "spanking." That's a subtrefuge claim by those that
"spank" and leave injuries and do OTHER damage they don't talk about
because they know confidintiality laws protect them.

It is not reasonable for the state to interefere in a
parent's right to spank his or her child, at least in Maryland.

It is morally and ethically reasonable but at this time it is not
legally permissable in any state. The issue isn't if a parent "spanks"
a child, but if they INJURE a child.

But CPS
use the ambiguity of the regulations

Please show the Maryland statute defining spanking as abusive and
actionable under child welfare law.

to produce undue hardship

Ah, the "poor me" ploy. I whipped my kid hard enough for the folks at
the local school and my neighbors and or the corner grocer to be
concerned and whose business is it anyway if I permanently damage my
child. I can convince myself I was just disciplining for the child's
own good and I "looooove" my child.

on
parents that do spank in order to force their social programing on
them.

ABSO****INLOOTALY. It is the desire of this society that parents do
NOT injure their children intentionally...or even by negligence and
it's damn well a "program" in that a system is set up to slow or stop
it when possible.


Just the usual "Blah blah poor me" from the child abusers. Have you
any idea how many times this same bit of nonsense has been posted in
these ngs?

In CPS hearings the burden is placed on the parent to prove their
innocence.

Liar. The state has a burden to prove guilt and the plaintif to refute
that claim as either false or unsupported by the evidence offered.

Now tell me again how this follows the tenets of due process?

Okay.

I've just done a runthrough of Maryland family and child welfare law.
It appears to be consistent with the US Constitution and amendments.
It HAS process and it is a DUE process as definded by the USC.

If you don't agree stop lollygaggin' and whinin' around here and go to
your statehouse and make a stink. Lobby, write letters to the editor,
letters to your representatives, bring the feds in (brrrrrr) if you
think that would help...

But, what I think I'm seeing here is yet another neanderthal argument
that children are property and can be treated anyway the parent unit
wishes to treat them and society has no investment in the growth of a
healthy mentally stable, crime free child.

Ain't a gonna happen, bubbah.

Move to a thirdworld country where children and women are bought and
sold with goats as currency.

State gotchyah, didn't it?

Wanna tell us your story? You might even convince me, and in fact, if
you are still helpable some here would even help YOU. But yah gotta
get honest and stop the pretense of debate with me and others. Or
backchannel a helper.

Try Greegor or Leakin' They have a really hot record of success with
CPS and helping families...0 to zero.

It's time to pony up.

Kane