CP as torture? Could it just be a matter of degree?

Something for the spanking and otherwise punishing parent to give some
deep thought to.

http://samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html

Kane,

Why would an anti-spanker belittle his position by aligning himself with
this. If you see torture occur, as the girl in Baltimore who was kept
in a closet, as was her sister, fed meagerly, and who eventually died
from her torture, the same a spanking a child for going out after dark,
into the night, into the streets after being told not to, spanked for
their protection, then you do not give credence to your postion.

By the way, sadomasochists buy these books for it supports their
positions of pain and pleasure, fake torturers and torturees, but they
get off on these ideas.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:28:42 -0500, "Bryan K. Zidek"
wrote:

Kane,

Why would an anti-spanker belittle his position by aligning himself
with
this.

I asked a question.

If you see torture occur, as the girl in Baltimore who was kept
in a closet, as was her sister, fed meagerly, and who eventually died
from her torture, the same a spanking a child for going out after
dark,
into the night, into the streets after being told not to, spanked for
their protection, then you do not give credence to your postion.

Why would you think I see them as the same? On the other hand I do
know that children cannot and do not make such a fine descrimination.
Pain's pain and the source of the pain is of paramount importance to
the child, hence they experience great confusion and betrayal when a
beloved parent strikes them and gives them deliberate pain.

So much confusion in fact they can end up in any number of bad
outcomes.

Why would one spank a child for leaving the house. It's not the
child's responsibility (age accepted) to have proper locks and
supervision. It's the parents.

If you believe the child should be spanked to teach them not to go out
then what kind of teaching method do you suggest for the parent that
allowed it to happen?

By the way, sadomasochists buy these books

What books might you be referring to? I've afraid I'm rather ignorant
about fetishists and details of their behavior.

Oh, you mean the one I referred to? Well then some might get off on
graphic depictions of surgical operations as available in medical
libraries. I hardly think that's a reason to make a big thing out of
the few weirdos that might get off on such medical texts.

for it supports their
positions of pain and pleasure, fake torturers and torturees,

"Sadomasochists" don't actually torture or be tortured? Hmmm...then
what would the questions you have about pain have to do with them?

but they
get off on these ideas.

I wouldn't know. You an authority, are you?

Personally, as long as they do no harm to children and only "fake"
corporal punishment on a child I guess I don't have a bitch with
them...as long as it's mutual consent and the child is capable of
making an informed decision.

Kane

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:28:42 -0500, "Bryan K. Zidek"
wrote:

Kane,

Why would an anti-spanker belittle his position by aligning himself
with
this.

I asked a question.

If you see torture occur, as the girl in Baltimore who was kept
in a closet, as was her sister, fed meagerly, and who eventually died
from her torture, the same a spanking a child for going out after
dark,
into the night, into the streets after being told not to, spanked for
their protection, then you do not give credence to your postion.

Why would you think I see them as the same? On the other hand I do
know that children cannot and do not make such a fine descrimination.
Pain's pain and the source of the pain is of paramount importance to
the child, hence they experience great confusion and betrayal when a
beloved parent strikes them and gives them deliberate pain.

So much confusion in fact they can end up in any number of bad
outcomes.

Why would one spank a child for leaving the house. It's not the
child's responsibility (age accepted) to have proper locks and
supervision. It's the parents.

If you believe the child should be spanked to teach them not to go out
then what kind of teaching method do you suggest for the parent that
allowed it to happen?

By the way, sadomasochists buy these books

What books might you be referring to? I've afraid I'm rather ignorant
about fetishists and details of their behavior.

Oh, you mean the one I referred to? Well then some might get off on
graphic depictions of surgical operations as available in medical
libraries. I hardly think that's a reason to make a big thing out of
the few weirdos that might get off on such medical texts.

for it supports their
positions of pain and pleasure, fake torturers and torturees,

"Sadomasochists" don't actually torture or be tortured? Hmmm...then
what would the questions you have about pain have to do with them?

but they
get off on these ideas.

I wouldn't know. You an authority, are you?

Personally, as long as they do no harm to children and only "fake"
corporal punishment on a child I guess I don't have a bitch with
them...as long as it's mutual consent and the child is capable of
making an informed decision.

Kane

It is none of your ****ing concern what how one diciplines their
children!
Spanking a child is good for the child and yes it is it is not
confusing
to anyone why they feel pain!
You teach right and wrong to a child that is why you cannot understand
right or wrong because you had no love as as a child and now your
****ed in the head!
If a child puts his finger in a light socket they feel pain and they
learn not to do it should we punish the light socket for being a
socket?
Children have to be taught right and wrong and not by way of some
mental ****!
Spanking is fine and teaching children that gay is wrong and not
giving them freedom to think that sicko **** is fine is a good thing!
This attack on the family is so stupid but it is that others who
cannot have children or women that have been placed behind men feel
that they can change the natural order by pushing the sick feminazi
**** on the American family!
It will not work men are in control and women are token at best!
This is reality and you cannot change it!
Spanking children is a fine way of teaching children right and wrong
it works
The left coast has screwed up America because they think to damn much
and no one even wants the governments help at all!
Liberals are all idiots that think the government is God well it is
not God to me!
We as parents do not need the govenrment or any other busy body
meddling in our matters any longer!
No one cares about the shrinks who analize spanking or agree with
liberal dumb **** !
If you love your children you will spank them to drive the evil far
from them!
and hopefully none of your childrn grow up to be feminazi trash!
MAX

On 14 Jan 2004 11:48:36 -0800, (The real Max)
wrote:

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:28:42 -0500, "Bryan K. Zidek"
wrote:

Kane,

Why would an anti-spanker belittle his position by aligning
himself
with
this.

I asked a question.

If you see torture occur, as the girl in Baltimore who was kept
in a closet, as was her sister, fed meagerly, and who eventually
died
from her torture, the same a spanking a child for going out after
dark,
into the night, into the streets after being told not to, spanked
for
their protection, then you do not give credence to your postion.

Why would you think I see them as the same? On the other hand I do
know that children cannot and do not make such a fine
descrimination.
Pain's pain and the source of the pain is of paramount importance
to
the child, hence they experience great confusion and betrayal when
a
beloved parent strikes them and gives them deliberate pain.

So much confusion in fact they can end up in any number of bad
outcomes.

Why would one spank a child for leaving the house. It's not the
child's responsibility (age accepted) to have proper locks and
supervision. It's the parents.

If you believe the child should be spanked to teach them not to go
out
then what kind of teaching method do you suggest for the parent
that
allowed it to happen?

By the way, sadomasochists buy these books

What books might you be referring to? I've afraid I'm rather
ignorant
about fetishists and details of their behavior.

Oh, you mean the one I referred to? Well then some might get off on
graphic depictions of surgical operations as available in medical
libraries. I hardly think that's a reason to make a big thing out
of
the few weirdos that might get off on such medical texts.

for it supports their
positions of pain and pleasure, fake torturers and torturees,

"Sadomasochists" don't actually torture or be tortured? Hmmm...then
what would the questions you have about pain have to do with them?

but they
get off on these ideas.

I wouldn't know. You an authority, are you?

Personally, as long as they do no harm to children and only "fake"
corporal punishment on a child I guess I don't have a bitch with
them...as long as it's mutual consent and the child is capable of
making an informed decision.

Kane

It is none of your ****ing concern what how one diciplines their
children!

As long as the child and I are of the same society it is my business
and every other citizen.

Spanking a child is good for the child and yes it is it is not
confusing
to anyone why they feel pain!

So children can understand the complexities of why you changed their
diet? Or dressed them one way for home and another for church? How
about just making 4 year olds Supreme Court justices?

No, children do NOT understand why a parent is whalin' on the child.
They are usually much to frightened to figure it out. It distracts
them from the very lesson the parent want's them to learn, and often
results in unwanted side effects, that is if you don't want your child
mentally ill, intellectually stunted, and a criminal. Each of these or
any are a risk when a parent turns to applying pain directly to a
child.

You teach right and wrong to a child

Yep. It can be done without pain.

that is why you cannot understand
right or wrong because you had no love as as a child and now your
****ed in the head!

I know right and wrong quite well. And I had massive amounts of love
and care as a child. I'm afraid the question of who is ****ed in the
head here isn't going to be settled by your declaration.

Want to see my psych tests from the military? I had to take a very
large battery of them because of the sensative nature of my
assignments. Very stable, intelligent, resourcesful, and above all,
excellent judgement under estreme pressure....boy you should have seen
what they put me through...sleep and food deprivation, psychological
pressure, right up to the level of my questioning if I hadn't been
captured and held by a foreign power. Out of 52 of us only 8 made it
to the end of the testing. I was one of them.

If a child puts his finger in a light socket they feel pain and they
learn not to do it should we punish the light socket for being a
socket?

Should we punish you for being the light socket, you mean. No, we
should keep the light socket out of the child's reach until they have
understanding and the children out of your reach until you have a
greater understanding of normal human development.

Children have to be taught right and wrong and not by way of some
mental ****!

Thinking, talking, teaching, giving examples, is "mental ****?" Fancy
that.

Spanking is fine

For fetishists. For children it's horror and torture. But then torture
victims learn to suppress it and even deny it and some become deeply
psychologically attached to their torturers. You should read up on it.

and teaching children that gay is wrong and not
giving them freedom to think that sicko **** is fine is a good thing!

What is "wrong" about being "gay" please? Me, I'm pretty happy all the
time and have never thought of my happiness and joy as "sicko ****."
Oh wait. You mean you are a queer basher.

I see. Thank you for the clarification of your thinking.

This attack on the family is so stupid but it is that others who
cannot have children or women that have been placed behind men feel
that they can change the natural order by pushing the sick feminazi
**** on the American family!

I see most of the over reaching of feminists in the 70s as
reactionary. They were over reacting to the abuses women have
experienced at the hands...literally in many cases....of male
dominated society.

I've seen feminist authors since those times come up very outspokenly
against just such nastiness toward men as you describe. To blame our
current woes on women when in fact we all bear responsibility for what
this society is and does is something of an over reaction on your
part.

It will not work men are in control and women are token at best!

Now you are making sense.....R R R R.

This is reality and you cannot change it!

I can understand how some would come to that conclusion given the fear
factor. Anyone that's been held down is very likely to, when they gain
some freedom, want more and make a great deal of trouble for their
former oppressors. Ask a black.

Spanking children is a fine way of teaching children right and wrong
it works

No it doesn't. Other ways are far better by test.

The left coast has screwed up America because they think to damn much
and no one even wants the governments help at all!

Gee. Women, anti-spankers, queers, now westerners. Who have you left
out?

Liberals are all idiots

Ah, of course. It all boils down to liberals. I've a feeling you don't
know what a liberal is other than the lockstep nonsense you've read
and heard. A real Liberal would run your ass into the ground with
their resistance to government interventions. You'd likely be
screamin' your ass off for some help from the government.

that think the government is God well it is
not God to me!

As a conservative Liberal minded (that is more the Libertarian
mindset) I don't think government is god. I think it's a tool to be
used effectively. Personally I don't think it's effective to suppress
women or children, or queers. Have I left anyone out? Race maybe?

We as parents do not need the govenrment or any other busy body
meddling in our matters any longer!

Free to kill your children then with out interference.

I may be very wrong. Possibly it would be a good idea to let nature
take its course, ala Darwin. But during MY lifetime many of those
abused and frightened by their parents will escape them and enter the
larger society as dangerous adults, so I am thinking of my own best
interests as well as the child when I attempt to persuade folks not to
use pain and fear parenting.

Selfish me. And the the rest of society can benefit from my
selfishness, no charge.

No one cares about the shrinks who analize spanking or agree with
liberal dumb **** !

"No one" at all? Seems they have considerably more influence than you
do or you wouldn't be spouting.

If you love your children you will spank them to drive the evil far
from them!

Ho boy. One o' "them." Should have known it was headed here.

and hopefully none of your childrn grow up to be feminazi trash!
MAX

I've meet very few women that I'd call "feminazi trash!" Though I've
had a couple of bulldyke pals that would whip your ass quick enough.
You wouldn't even know they were female as they parked their Hogs and
came for your silly butt, until they got up close. But good mothers
and friends.

You are doomed Max. You and your kind. We all, straight, queer, of
color, or not, one or another religion, are inevitabley learning,
despite occasional backsliding, learning to get along and even value
each other. Me, I get my best laughs as the "straight boy" hangin'
with all kinds of people. To look at me you'd think I was one a YOU
trailer trash.

Go shoot a can a beer and have a cool one. We decent straight white
folks, for the most part, consider you and your kind our cancer. And
we DO know how to operate, as you may have noticed.

But then, you are just a troll, you have that certain stink about you,
so really this conversation is pointless. Don't expect to have a reply
to any further of your posts, at least by me.

Thanks for making it possible to once again educate and elucidate on
the subject of spanking.

Kane

Kane,

I agree with you that parents must take responsibility for their
actions. I try to be responsible for my kids, as my parents were with
me, and theirs with them. Unfortunately, I have also been a child who
did not listen to every caution my parents tried to instill in me. They
did not lock me in the house to keep me safe, they guided me in many
ways, to the success I am today, from their success, to my children's
success ( I do not mean success as in money, but more in the sense of
happiness). However it worked, it has been and still is today a "way"
of success for my family. This is the credence of many families, the
life to live free from government excesses and government control.
Nobody says you should spank your children, and I don't know if you
ever did or not, or if you even have children. On the other hand, no
one should force a family not to spank. However, when circumstances
arise where children do get harmed, in serious and irretrievable,
egregious ways, then the state should interfere for thus is the
efficiency of the state. If a parent spanks their child for their
protection, to help them, in the whole scheme of helping them and loving
them and caring for them and taking responsibility for them and nobody
knows the difference, as time goes on, and all other factors of family
life weigh in, why should anybody outside the family want to know what
it does, spanking, or not? Is there not greater harm in the
interference by the state; is the increasing denial of liberty and
freedom a greater harm to the child?

Bryan wrote
Is there not greater harm in the interference
by the state; is the increasing denial of liberty
and freedom a greater harm to the child?

Beware, Bryan, CPS caseworkers think Constitutionalists
are all nuts, evil and have something to hide.

You touched upon what is called LIBERTY INTEREST.
A very interesting point since one of the
absurdities of Juvenile Court is that even
though it is involving a LIBERTY INTEREST,
and even though caseworkers think their
mission is so VERY IMPORTANT, the legal
standards are LOWER than those used for
petty theft or small claims court.

DUE PROCESS is basically a sham in Juvenile Court.
Gossip, rumor and innuendo are allowed,
even if they did strictly follow the rules.

We had a Judge RECUSE herself for bias and later
she thought she was going to put herself back
on the case. Crooked Judge!
She knows full well there is no such thing
as "un-recusal". Like un-breaking an egg.

Juvenile Court uses a shabby low-level burden
of proof called "preponderance" which caseworkers
ABUSE by simply doing one sided reporting. If
there is only one sided reporting, OF COURSE
more than half of the information supports them!

It's not DUE PROCESS when the process is rigged.

Immunity for Judges and Caseworkers doesn't
make them more honest either.

There are lots of rules, laws, administrative
directives, etc. Just after a parent
finds out that there IS A CERTAIN RULE, they
find out that the court and CPS are not going
to enforce it.
Why should they? Qualified Immunity.

They won't even back up their word with
criminal or financial liability, so any
"oath" when they testify is meaningless.
(Nullifies their oath doesn't it?)

Fortunately, CPS here in Maryland is losing cases in court, but not
enough. After ruining families, many with spending all the extra cash
they had, cash to support and take care of children, spent on lawyers,
they win against CPS in court. CPS has good intentions, good intentions
gone completely wrong in many cases. They do catch some abusers but
their record is showing in increasing numbers that they are indignant to
the right of parents and prefer to use poorly written regualtions to
pursue their selfish causes. I have three legislators in my district on
to them and who have supported parents. The process will be slow to
reverse these regulations or to modify them to meet their original
intent.

On 15 Jan 2004 03:58:02 -0800, (Greg Hanson)
wrote:

Bryan wrote
Is there not greater harm in the interference
by the state; is the increasing denial of liberty
and freedom a greater harm to the child?

Beware, Bryan, CPS caseworkers

I can't speak for caseworkers, nor am I one, but I can speak to this
issue, since I was being addressed, not caseworkers:

think Constitutionalists
are all nuts, evil and have something to hide.

When they attempt to use the Constitution and LIBERTY INTERESTS to
override the constitutional rights and libery interests of others,
yes, I'd say they are nuts, evil, and have something to hide. Or are
stupid child such as you, Whore.

Parents do NOT have the right to abuse and neglect their children.
Children have constitutional rights and liberty interests of their
own. They are not livestock or pets (though they would be protected
MORE if they were under the same legal protections as pets).

They are not prisoners, though again they would have greater
protections if they were.

You touched upon what is called LIBERTY INTEREST.

A so called "liberty interest" that usurps the rights of another
isn't about liberty. It's about simple crime, which you are attempting
to justify.

Children ARE afforded the protection of the state against their
parents when deemed necessary. OTHER PARENTS, citizens, have voted for
it. This society insists that children be so protected.

Get used to it.

A very interesting point since one of the
absurdities of Juvenile Court is that even
though it is involving a LIBERTY INTEREST,

Whose?

and even though caseworkers think their
mission is so VERY IMPORTANT,

The protection of children from starvation, pain, broken bones, sexual
attacks, and mental torture, with developmental losses effecting them
for life isn't "VERY IMPORTANT" to you then, Whore?

the legal
standards are LOWER than those used for
petty theft or small claims court.

In other words, you are attempting to pretend moving all actions to
criminal court (and we notice you trying to hide that family court is
civil court) would improve your situation.

YOUR little lazy ass would be serving comfort to Bubbah and his
buddies if YOU'D been treated to what you claim you want above.

The last thing parents want, and whores such as you, is to find
themselves in criminal court. All those second, third, and fourth and
more chances would go away and the children would never be returned.

DUE PROCESS is basically a sham in Juvenile Court.

It is different and so stated in statute. That is not a sham.

Gossip, rumor and innuendo are allowed,
even if they did strictly follow the rules.

The rules of evidence are different. They can still be used BY BOTH
SIDES. If "gossip and rumor and innuendo," which is no more than
verbal testimony, is allowed to one it is to the other.

We had a Judge RECUSE herself for bias and later
she thought she was going to put herself back
on the case. Crooked Judge!

She knows full well there is no such thing
as "un-recusal". Like un-breaking an egg.

So she unrecused herself? Please explain.

Juvenile Court uses a shabby low-level burden
of proof called "preponderance" which caseworkers
ABUSE by simply doing one sided reporting.

That is the rule in civil court. A preponderence of evidence.

If
there is only one sided reporting, OF COURSE
more than half of the information supports them!

Odd. I had not heard the plaintiff was not allowed exactly what the
state was allowed. Please explain.

It's not DUE PROCESS when the process is rigged.

That is correct. Please show how it is rigged.

Immunity for Judges and Caseworkers doesn't
make them more honest either.

Without immunity in some matters, that is in the pursuit of their jobs
under the state's laws and policies, no work would be completed. Every
criminal could immediately stop actions against them by a claim of
dishonesty of the judges and investigators and enforcement officers.

Of course you would love that.

There are lots of rules, laws, administrative
directives, etc.

The mechanics of a civil society seem to require some body of
regulation in codified form. Words on paper seem to do the trick for
the civilized. You have a better plan? Please explain your system to
us.

How would YOU protect children from people such as YOU?

Just after a parent
finds out that there IS A CERTAIN RULE, they
find out that the court and CPS are not going
to enforce it.

If there is a rule or law that YOU want enforced YOU bring charges or
make a claim. Neither the court or CPS is obligated to enforce unless
YOU use the law. Wishing it was so and blaming the state when it
doesn't jump to your fantasy life is a stupid thing to do...common to
the lazy and criminal.

Why should they? Qualified Immunity.

Nonsense ignorant babble.

They won't even back up their word with
criminal or financial liability, so any
"oath" when they testify is meaningless.
(Nullifies their oath doesn't it?)

No, actually it does nothing of the sort. Judges and CPS workers have
the same obligations as other citizens under oath.

Criminal behavior is as subject to charges with judges and CPS workers
as with anyone else. You are confusing their immunity with their
sovereignty.

They have the same rights as you and I. They have civil rights that
you wish to take away. And more especially in the course of their work
they have to have room to do their work.

You present as a criminal in your arguments and thinking, Greegor, but
we knew that about you.

By the way, we are far from the topic of this thread.

Please note that I cross posted to more appropriate forums in Usenet.
I left it in aps so that those following the thread wouldn't lose it.
It's imporant that those who actually care about family and children
not lose track of who and what you are.

Kane