Anti-anti-anti depressant rant

I have read a lot of posts stating the risks of anti-depressants, how
anti-depressants are the cause of tragedies like school shootings, how
anti-depressants taken by nursing mothers cause withdrawl symptoms in
babies, and I feel like I need to put in my 2cents. I have struggled
with depression my whole life. I finally reached a point where I was
ready to deal with some of my root issues, found a good psychologist,
and started taking an SSRI. I made great progress, never felt better,
and was able to stop the medication. The drugs helped me reach a state
where I could really evaluate where I was and how to change, something
I hadn't been able to do for over 20 years. I went off the drugs before
I got pregnant, but once the hormones started raging, I decompensated
and became depressed again, so on my OB's advice, I went back on. I
agreed with her that a depressed mother is not good for the baby, in
the womb or out. I feel that I was doing my baby more harm by not
taking the drugs. We have discussed post-partum depression as I am at
high risk and I will probably increase my dose then. And plan to breast
feed. Most research shows that minimal amounts of the medication
(citalopram) pass into breastmilk. And if you read the whole and
original papers on withdrawl symptoms in infants (not just the popular
news stories which only give you part of the story and leave out the
number of subjects, materials and methods, and any information that may
conflict with the reporter's opinions) the numbers are very small. And
most important, each patient should weigh the benefits to herself
versus the risk to the baby. For myself, the benefit of being a
reasonably happy pregnant woman, eventually a happy mom, and a happy
wife far outweighed what I believe are minimal risks to my child, based
on my research on this subject. We should be cautious and careful, but
for those women out there who really need the medications, I need to
say to them that you need to look at the benefits, not just the risks.

Julie, due in 8 weeks

"julie in Boise" wrote in message ...
I have read a lot of posts stating the risks of anti-depressants, how
anti-depressants are the cause of tragedies like school shootings, how
anti-depressants taken by nursing mothers cause withdrawl symptoms in
babies, and I feel like I need to put in my 2cents. I have struggled
with depression my whole life. I finally reached a point where I was
ready to deal with some of my root issues, found a good psychologist,
and started taking an SSRI. I made great progress, never felt better,
and was able to stop the medication. The drugs helped me reach a state
where I could really evaluate where I was and how to change, something
I hadn't been able to do for over 20 years. I went off the drugs before
I got pregnant, but once the hormones started raging, I decompensated
and became depressed again, so on my OB's advice, I went back on. I
agreed with her that a depressed mother is not good for the baby, in
the womb or out. I feel that I was doing my baby more harm by not
taking the drugs. We have discussed post-partum depression as I am at
high risk and I will probably increase my dose then. And plan to breast
feed. Most research shows that minimal amounts of the medication
(citalopram) pass into breastmilk. And if you read the whole and
original papers on withdrawl symptoms in infants (not just the popular
news stories which only give you part of the story and leave out the
number of subjects, materials and methods, and any information that may
conflict with the reporter's opinions) the numbers are very small. And
most important, each patient should weigh the benefits to herself
versus the risk to the baby. For myself, the benefit of being a
reasonably happy pregnant woman, eventually a happy mom, and a happy
wife far outweighed what I believe are minimal risks to my child, based
on my research on this subject. We should be cautious and careful, but
for those women out there who really need the medications, I need to
say to them that you need to look at the benefits, not just the risks.

Julie, due in 8 weeks


Thanks for this post Julie. I have battled with antenatal depression and
postnatal depression since being pregnant for the 1st time 10 yrs ago.

I am keeping 'it' at bay with exercise, but I can feel it grabbing my ankles
trying to drag me down.

I have decided not to have the drugs while pregnant, but to go on them as
soon as the baby has been born. I hope all goes well for you.

Andrea (UK) mom of 5 edd 14th October.

Thanks for posting Julie. I usually just ignore the
anti-anti-depressant threads because they're just rants,
and the posters aren't otherwise regular contributers
to this group.

It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into finding
the best solution for your situation, and I admire that.

All best,
Emily
--
DS 5/02
EDD Labor Day 9/5/05

Julie in Boise wrote:

snip
I went off the [anti-depression] drugs before
I got pregnant, but once the hormones started raging, I decompensated
and became depressed again, so on my OB's advice, I went back on. I
agreed with her that a depressed mother is not good for the baby, in
the womb or out.
snip

GOOD NEWS JULIE!

OBs are closing birth canals up to 30% bizarrely causing difficulty getting
the baby out of the womb - bizarrely causing "difficult labor" - which is
thought to increase the risk of postpartum depression.

No - that's not the good news...

The good news is your OB *may* be able to reduce your risk of postnatal
depression - just by letting your birth canal open maximally at delivery.

See the excerpt of my Open Letter to Psychiatrist Carol Watkins, MD below.

PREGNANT WOMEN: Semisitting and dorsal delivery CLOSE the birth canal - up
to 30%. To allow your birth canal to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%, simply
roll onto your side as you push your baby out.

BEWARE THOUGH: Some OBs and midwives will let women "try" alternative
delivery positions but will close their birth canals the "extra" up to 30%
by rolling them back to semisitting or dorsal for the actual delivery.

BEWARE ALSO: When babies get stuck, OBs routinely KEEP birth canals closed
the "extra" up to 30% as they gruesomely pull with hands, forceps and
vacuums.

Talk to your OB today.



Attn: OBs: The Four OB Lies are WHOPPERS - please help stop the grisly
obstetric tomfoolery.

See Dr. Gastaldo corrects BRITISH GRAY'S ANATOMY
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3293




What follows is a substantial excerpt of my Open Letter to Psychiatrist
Carol Watkins, MD...

Psychiatrist Carol never responded; so I will cc her this post as well...

Psychiatrist Carol Watkins, M.D.
Board Certified in Child, Adolescent & Adult Psychiatry
Northern County (Maryland) Psychiatric Associates
Monkton: 16829 York Road/PO Box 544/Monkton, MD 21111
Lutherville: 2360 West Joppa Road Suite 223/ Lutherville, MD
410-329-2028
Email:

Carol, I saw nothing about intense fatigue or sleeplessness in your
description
of
postpartum depression/blues...

Yet the Alexian Brothers Medical Center calls intense fatigue and
sleeplessness
"warning signs," as in,

"Warning Signs Of Severe Postpartum Depression...Intense fatigue or
sleeplessness...Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness...You have
aggressive impulses..."
http://www.alexian.org/progserv/babi...3m/severe.html

Inconsolable screaming/crying ("colic") would be quite understandable in
babies who have just had their spines gruesomely wrenched (MOST babies have
their spines gruesomely wrenched; see above)

Wouldn't "intense fatigue or sleeplessness be EXPECTED when babies suffering
"colic" are combined with women already suffering the debilitating effects
of major abdominal surgery (see below) - or "just" the effects of labor and
delivery complicated by OBs closing birth canals up to 30% and keeping birth
canals closed up to 30%?

Carol, you say that women "may have more difficulty with postpartum
depression"
if
there is a "prior history of postpartum problems"...
http://www.ncpamd.com/Postpartum_Depression.htm

Makes sense to me! A prior history of an OB committing one or both surgical
felonies - PLUS the related OB felony - closing the birth canal up to 30% on
the baby (potential for intense sleeplessness/fatigue)...

Well - who WOULDN'T be depressed - who wouldn't at least feel a little
"blue"?

Again, Carol, your incredible postpartum blues figu

"In America, about 50% to 80% of new mothers experience
a mild, self-limited period of depression, anxiety, and emotional reactivity
called the postpartum blues...usually...about three to five days after
delivery...

You include SYMPTOMS after your up to 12% postpartum depression figure...

"...a more severe, lasting depression is
experienced by up to 12% of women after delivery. Symptoms may include
hopelessness, guilt, difficulty concentrating, poor appetite, and thoughts
of suicide. Frequent trips to the baby's pediatrician may be a sign of
depression."

Why not mention of SEVERE SLEEPLESSNESS, as in the Alexian Brothers Warning
Signs excerpted above?

Was this an accidental omission? Or is there controversy on this point?

Carol, you advise women regarding "Getting Psychiatric Help" if they are
suffering postpartum depression.
http://www.ncpamd.com/Postpartum_Depression.htm

WHAT ABOUT PREVENTION?

Again, you note that there is increased postpartum depression risk
after "difficult labor."
http://www.ncpamd.com/Postpartum_Depression.htm

Since OBs are *causing* difficult labors by routinely closing pelvic outlets
up
to
30%.

Since OBs are causing difficult labors by routinely KEEPING birth canals
closed
up
to 30% when babies get stuck.

And since,

"It is established obstetric teaching that a narrow pelvic outlet
predisposes to a difficult vaginal delivery..."
--Ass-Ärztin Dr. Andrea Froschauer-Frudinger et al. [Br J Obstet Gynaecol
2002;109(11):1207-12]

Maybe psychiatrists could help stop OBs from closing birth canals up to 30%,
etc.?

Maybe you could start interacting with your obstetric peers...

You say your work "requires...rigorous and
ongoing interaction with my peers to stay abreast of the latest
breakthroughs."
http://www.ncpamd.com/Watkins.htm

Your obstetric peers are *concealing* a birth breakthrough made last
century -
to wit - it is easy to allow the
birth canal to open an "extra" up to 30%.

Your obstetric peers are actually lying as they conceal this breakthrough...

I noted some of the OB lies in an Open Letter to the FTC years ago...
http://home1.gte.net/gastaldo/part2ftc.html

THE FOUR OB LIES...

OB LIE #1. After MASSIVE change in the AP pelvic outlet diameter was
clinically demonstrated in 1911 and radiographically demonstrated in 1957,
the authors of Williams Obstetrics began erroneously claiming that pelvic
diamaters DON'T CHANGE at delivery.

OB LIE #2. After Ohlsen pointed out in 1973 that pelvic diameters DO
change - the authors of Williams Obstetrics began erroneously claiming that
their most frequent delivery position - dorsal - widens the outlet.

OB LIE #3. After I pointed out in 1992 that dorsal CLOSES - and so does
semisitting - the authors of Williams Obstetrics - put the correct
biomechanics in their 1993 edition - but kept in their text (in the same
paragraph!) - the dorsal widens bald lie that first called my attention to
their text...

OB LIE #4. OBs are actually KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get
stuck - and claiming they are doing everything to allow the birth canal open
maximally. (ACOG Shoulder Dystocia video - also forceps and vacuum births
are performed with the mother in lithotomy.)

See Make birth better: Dan Rather, before you leave CBS...
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2983


A LIKELY PART OF THE REASON OBs ARE LYING:
Cowan et al. wrote in 2003:

"Our findings show that more than 90% of term infants
with neonatal encephalopathy...without specific syndromes or major
congenital defects, had evidence of perinatally acquired insults...Reasons
for injuries of perinatal onset remain poorly understood."
--Cowan F, Rutherford M, Groenedaal F, Eken P, Mercuri E, Bydder GM,
Meiners LC, Dubowitz LMS, de Vries LS, Origin and timing of brain lesions in
term infants with neonatal encephalopathy. The Lancet
(Mar1)2003;361:736-42.


THINK ABOUT IT CAROL: Most women never hear of the "extra" up to 30% - and
women lucky enough to learn about it have to ASK for it...

Sometimes the "extra" up to 30% is denied when women ask! (It's not just
OBs.
Dagny a mother on misc.kids.pregnancy says that a homebirth midwife denied
the
"extra" up to 30%.)

Why should pregnant women be psychiatrically burdened (in effect) with the
task
of informing their OB (or midwife) that he/she has been closing birth canals
up
to 30% (and keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck)?

Psychiatrists should help stop OBs from closing birth canals up to 30%.

Women shouldn't have to ask.

Again those quotes from the AMA's Principles of Medical Ethics:

"A physician shall...strive to expose those physicians deficient in
character or
competence, or who engage in fraud or deception."

"A physician shall...seek changes in those requirements which are contrary
to
the best interests of the patient."

"A physician shall...make relevant information available to patients,
colleagues, and the public..."
http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/eth...nions53101.cfm

END excerpt of Gastaldo's Open Letter to Psychiatrist Carol Watkins

See Birth psychiatry ('Baby blues': Are OBs causing some cases?)
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/3123

Julie concluded her post...

snip
For myself, the benefit of being a
reasonably happy pregnant woman, eventually a happy mom, and a happy
wife far outweighed what I believe are minimal risks to my child, based
on my research on this subject. We should be cautious and careful, but
for those women out there who really need the medications, I need to
say to them that you need to look at the benefits, not just the risks.

Julie, due in 8 weeks


Julie,

I was pleased to read that you were able to help yourself with the
anti-depression drug after so many years of depression.

That must have been a fantastic feeling....

And then to be able to get off the anti-depression drug - YAY!

But then came pregnancy and you needed the drug again.

Well, I am glad it has helped you - and I like your recognition that "We
should be cautious and careful."

Please be cautious and careful about birth itself.

Women shouldn't have to ASK for the "extra" up to 30% of pelvic outlet
area - that's just the way it is - so talk to your OB today.

Thanks for posting.

Sincerely,

Todd

as long as you know the full risks, they didn't with the Benzodiazepines
http://www.whale.to/drugs/benzodiazepines1.html and I don't know if they
still use them


"julie in Boise" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have read a lot of posts stating the risks of anti-depressants, how
anti-depressants are the cause of tragedies like school shootings, how
anti-depressants taken by nursing mothers cause withdrawl symptoms in
babies, and I feel like I need to put in my 2cents. I have struggled
with depression my whole life. I finally reached a point where I was
ready to deal with some of my root issues, found a good psychologist,
and started taking an SSRI. I made great progress, never felt better,
and was able to stop the medication. The drugs helped me reach a state
where I could really evaluate where I was and how to change, something
I hadn't been able to do for over 20 years. I went off the drugs before
I got pregnant, but once the hormones started raging, I decompensated
and became depressed again, so on my OB's advice, I went back on. I
agreed with her that a depressed mother is not good for the baby, in
the womb or out. I feel that I was doing my baby more harm by not
taking the drugs. We have discussed post-partum depression as I am at
high risk and I will probably increase my dose then. And plan to breast
feed. Most research shows that minimal amounts of the medication
(citalopram) pass into breastmilk. And if you read the whole and
original papers on withdrawl symptoms in infants (not just the popular
news stories which only give you part of the story and leave out the
number of subjects, materials and methods, and any information that may
conflict with the reporter's opinions) the numbers are very small. And
most important, each patient should weigh the benefits to herself
versus the risk to the baby. For myself, the benefit of being a
reasonably happy pregnant woman, eventually a happy mom, and a happy
wife far outweighed what I believe are minimal risks to my child, based
on my research on this subject. We should be cautious and careful, but
for those women out there who really need the medications, I need to
say to them that you need to look at the benefits, not just the risks.

Julie, due in 8 weeks

I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I took Wellbutrin
before getting pregnany with the twins, during my pregnancy and after they
were born. Coping with Mariam's death was so hard, and I needed the help to
get through it. My boys are perfectly healthy, and am happy to say that I
have been antidepressant free since January, with only minor relapses.

--
-Lisa
Due September 2005
Mom to Aaron & Nicholas born 7/25/04
Mom to Mariam Averi, born sleeping 9/10/03



"julie in Boise" wrote:
I have read a lot of posts stating the risks of anti-depressants, how
anti-depressants are the cause of tragedies like school shootings, how
anti-depressants taken by nursing mothers cause withdrawl symptoms in
babies, and I feel like I need to put in my 2cents. I have struggled
with depression my whole life. I finally reached a point where I was
ready to deal with some of my root issues, found a good psychologist,
and started taking an SSRI. I made great progress, never felt better,
and was able to stop the medication. The drugs helped me reach a state
where I could really evaluate where I was and how to change, something
I hadn't been able to do for over 20 years. I went off the drugs before
I got pregnant, but once the hormones started raging, I decompensated
and became depressed again, so on my OB's advice, I went back on. I
agreed with her that a depressed mother is not good for the baby, in
the womb or out. I feel that I was doing my baby more harm by not
taking the drugs. We have discussed post-partum depression as I am at
high risk and I will probably increase my dose then. And plan to breast
feed. Most research shows that minimal amounts of the medication
(citalopram) pass into breastmilk. And if you read the whole and
original papers on withdrawl symptoms in infants (not just the popular
news stories which only give you part of the story and leave out the
number of subjects, materials and methods, and any information that may
conflict with the reporter's opinions) the numbers are very small. And
most important, each patient should weigh the benefits to herself
versus the risk to the baby. For myself, the benefit of being a
reasonably happy pregnant woman, eventually a happy mom, and a happy
wife far outweighed what I believe are minimal risks to my child, based
on my research on this subject. We should be cautious and careful, but
for those women out there who really need the medications, I need to
say to them that you need to look at the benefits, not just the risks.

Julie, due in 8 weeks

Crystal Dreamer wrote:

I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I took Wellbutrin
before getting pregnany with the twins, during my pregnancy and after they
were born.


Lets get some perspective here.

Wellbutrin is not an SSRI.
It is SSRIS have been found to damage developing foetuses and are
counter-indicated in pregnancy



Coping with Mariam's death was so hard, and I needed the help to
get through it. My boys are perfectly healthy, and am happy to say that I
have been antidepressant free since January, with only minor relapses.

thats good to hear.

"Ginger" wrote in message
news:1112089687.f2897a0d0aa89d6fdaacde32c4c48f5b@t eranews...
Crystal Dreamer wrote:

I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I took Wellbutrin
before getting pregnany with the twins, during my pregnancy and after
they
were born.


Lets get some perspective here.

Wellbutrin is not an SSRI.
It is SSRIS have been found to damage developing foetuses and are
counter-indicated in pregnancy

Coping with Mariam's death was so hard, and I needed the help to
get through it. My boys are perfectly healthy, and am happy to say that
I
have been antidepressant free since January, with only minor relapses.

thats good to hear.



I never said it was an SSRI. I was agreeing with her rant about
anti-depressants. Are you trying to start something? I'm not going to take
the bait so don't even try.

Crystal Dreamer wrote:
"Ginger" wrote in message
news:1112089687.f2897a0d0aa89d6fdaacde32c4c48f5b@t eranews...

Crystal Dreamer wrote:


I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I took Wellbutrin
before getting pregnany with the twins, during my pregnancy and after

they

were born.


Lets get some perspective here.

Wellbutrin is not an SSRI.
It is SSRIS have been found to damage developing foetuses and are
counter-indicated in pregnancy

Coping with Mariam's death was so hard, and I needed the help to

get through it. My boys are perfectly healthy, and am happy to say that

I

have been antidepressant free since January, with only minor relapses.

thats good to hear.




I never said it was an SSRI. I was agreeing with her rant about
anti-depressants.


Agreeing that pregnant women should ignore medical advice and encourage
others to do the same?


Are you trying to start something? I'm not going to take
the bait so don't even try.


There is nothing to "start". Facts are still facts whether you stick
your head in the sand and ignore them or not.

Chambers et al (1996) reported that 31.5% of 73 infants exposed to
Prozac in the third trimester exhibited symptoms of "poor neonatal
adaptation" including respiratory difficulties, irritability,
jitteriness, cyanosis (turning blue) on feeding. [Birth outcomes in
pregnant women taking fluoxetine. N Engl Med 335:1010*1015]






http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/05/02/05.php


The latest SSRI withdrawal study (published in The Lancet) by a team at
the University of La Laguna in Spain suggests that unborn babies could
also be at risk from their mothers' use of SSRIs. Symptoms of neonatal
withdrawal syndrome resemble withdrawal symptoms of infants born to
Crack Cocaine addicted mothers - they include, convulsions,
irritability, abnormal crying and tremor.

The hazardous effects of antidepressants have not been generally known
or acknowledged - much less, the adverse effects on newborn babies. The
FDA had failed to require warnings about the activation, suicidal risks
for children, and the risks of withdrawal syndrome for newborn infants.
However, several published reports do exist. [See:
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/06/29.php ]

In 1996, Chambers et al (1996) reported that 31.5% of 73 infants exposed
to Prozac in the third trimester exhibited symptoms of "poor neonatal
adaptation" including respiratory difficulties, irritability,
jitteriness, cyanosis (turning blue) on feeding. [Birth outcomes in
pregnant women taking fluoxetine. N Engl Med 335:1010*1015]

In April 2004, the NTP-CERHR panel issued a report about published
evidence of infants exposed to an antidepressant in utero and / or
breast fed by mothers who took an antidepressant: The REPRODUCTIVE and
DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY of FLUOXETINE
http://cerhr.niehs.nih.gov/news/fluo...tine_final.pdf.
Following the publication of the NTP-CERHR report, the FDA convened an
advisory committee, June 9 that recommended class labeling for the
neonatal toxicity/withdrawal syndrome related to in utero exposure of
SSRI/SNRI's. The committee also strongly supported a package insert for
patients (pregnant or considering pregnancy) which provided detailed
information at the 6th to 8th grade level as to what is known about the
risk/benefit issues for the fetus/newborn and for the mother when
choices have to be made about the use of these agents in pregnancy.. See
synopsis of the advisory committee recommendations at:
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/04/06/29.php

In the new study the researchers used World Health Organization records.
They found more than 100 such cases. Based on the treating doctors'
original reports, the researchers narrowed those down to 93 that could
be linked strongly to an antidepressant medication. After conducting a
statistical analysis, the authors concluded that the withdrawal reports
were more common than would be expected by chance, and should be
published to alert doctors and patients.

"In 13 of the 93 cases, the study found, newborns suffered convulsions,
a reaction that has not been widely noted in adults who discontinue
antidepressant use."

"Ginger" wrote in message ...
Crystal Dreamer wrote:
"Ginger" wrote in message..

Crystal Dreamer wrote:


I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I took Wellbutrin
before getting pregnany with the twins, during my pregnancy and after

they

were born.


Lets get some perspective here.

Wellbutrin is not an SSRI.
It is SSRIS have been found to damage developing foetuses and are
counter-indicated in pregnancy

Coping with Mariam's death was so hard, and I needed the help to

get through it. My boys are perfectly healthy, and am happy to say that

I

have been antidepressant free since January, with only minor relapses.

thats good to hear.




I never said it was an SSRI. I was agreeing with her rant about
anti-depressants.


Agreeing that pregnant women should ignore medical advice and encourage
others to do the same?


Are you trying to start something? I'm not going to take
the bait so don't even try.


There is nothing to "start". Facts are still facts whether you stick your
head in the sand and ignore them or not.

Chambers et al (1996) reported that 31.5% of 73 infants exposed to Prozac
in the third trimester exhibited symptoms of "poor neonatal adaptation"
including respiratory difficulties, irritability, jitteriness, cyanosis
(turning blue) on feeding. [Birth outcomes in pregnant women taking
fluoxetine. N Engl Med 335:1010*1015]

This reminds me of when I was desperately depressed. My doc said "I can give
you anti-depressants but you run the risk that your baby could have
respiratory distress". Of course I walked out empty handed feeling even
worse for thinking of putting my baby at risk.

Months passed I couldn't get out of bed most days, my baby didn't know it's
mother, let alone my other 4 kids. My husband quit work to be the mom.
One day I decided to do some research, I talked to people on
misc.kids.breastfeeding, and looked at various articles. I decided to argue
with my doc and came away with Sertraline (Zoloft). After a short time I
felt more human than I ever had in my life. I was a mother again, I
continued to breastfeed, my baby continued to thrive - he had no problems at
all. When this baby is born I will go back on the meds again.. and I will
breastfeed. After the birth of my first 4 children I suffered, as I didn't
dare touch meds. But now I know how important it is to have a functioning
mother, I don't want to think about how much of me my kids missed out on.

Andrea (UK) mom of 5 and edd 15th October.