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MMR scare doctor faces list of charges



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 12th 05, 04:16 PM
Rich
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"Clinton" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rich wrote:
"Clinton" wrote in message
oups.com...


Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them is
beyond unethical; it is criminal.


It seems the bulk of the "accusations" are "political" charges
of conflict of interest which as already pointed out could be
leveled at any doctor doing research or working for the government.
And suppose a link was or is found. He would be hero.

I have no idea what a lumbar puncture is so I don't know if this
and other tests done on the children, were ethical or not.


A lumbar puncture, popularly known as a "spinal tap" is an invasive
procedure that entails inserting a needle between the 4th and 5th lumbar
vertibrae into the spinal canal for the purpose of withdrawing specimens of
cerebrospinal fluid. When indicated for the diagnosis of disease, it is an
immensely valuable tool, but it is not without risks. To expose children to
those risks, simply in the hope of gathering ammunition for an anti-vac
agenda, when the procedure has no diagnostic value whatsoever for the
children, is abuse of the most vile sort.
--


--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/


  #22  
Old September 12th 05, 04:20 PM
cathyb
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Posts: n/a
Default


Clinton wrote:

cathyb wrote:
This person's research is being looked at primarily because he caused a
huge public health scare, which certainly was a cause in vaccination
rates dropping, and may therefore have been a factor in subsequent
measles and mumps outbreaks.


And that is the point. That is not a valid reason for doing whatever
the medical powers are doing.


If his research had any validity, that might be so. But as it turned
out, it did not. I note that you have both the remarkable lack of data
on which he based his conclusions, and the in-your-face conflict of
interest he attempted to cover up. You know, the one where he came up
with a conclusion that indicted vaccines on the basis of eight case
studies of kids involved in a case suing vaccine manufacturers.


That is what conformism means, you
act according to whether an action is going to "rock the boat",
not based on its own merits. In fact under such a system leaps
forward are less likely to be made because no one wants to take risk
and be the nail sticking up which gets pounded down by the hammer.

We 'conformists' would prefer that affairs like Vioxx and this
Wakefield controversy couldn't happen because of better regulation in
research and publication. If you're quite happy for fraud and
scientific dishonesty to go unheeded, then enjoy living with the
results.


If your definition of "fraud" is getting funding and having that
source of funding be biased the entire federal government is
guitly of fraud and should be thrown in jail (even though I
think this happened in britian).


Yes, it did. The fraud was his not telling anyone about...

**** it. Bloody read about the case before you start pontificating over
other's reasons for criticising the good doctor.

That goes for the politicians
too and most private doctors who conduct "fraudulent" and "biased",
"funded" research for industry.


And you think that's ok?

It's not me who's the lackey then.

  #23  
Old September 12th 05, 04:24 PM
cathyb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


cathyb wrote:
Clinton wrote:

cathyb wrote:
This person's research is being looked at primarily because he caused a
huge public health scare, which certainly was a cause in vaccination
rates dropping, and may therefore have been a factor in subsequent
measles and mumps outbreaks.


And that is the point. That is not a valid reason for doing whatever
the medical powers are doing.


If his research had any validity, that might be so. But as it turned
out, it did not. I note that you have both the remarkable lack of data
on which he based his conclusions, and the in-your-face conflict of
interest he attempted to cover up. You know, the one where he came up
with a conclusion that indicted vaccines on the basis of eight case
studies of kids involved in a case suing vaccine manufacturers.


Ooops. That should have been 'I note that you have ignored both...'




That is what conformism means, you
act according to whether an action is going to "rock the boat",
not based on its own merits. In fact under such a system leaps
forward are less likely to be made because no one wants to take risk
and be the nail sticking up which gets pounded down by the hammer.

We 'conformists' would prefer that affairs like Vioxx and this
Wakefield controversy couldn't happen because of better regulation in
research and publication. If you're quite happy for fraud and
scientific dishonesty to go unheeded, then enjoy living with the
results.


If your definition of "fraud" is getting funding and having that
source of funding be biased the entire federal government is
guitly of fraud and should be thrown in jail (even though I
think this happened in britian).


Yes, it did. The fraud was his not telling anyone about...

**** it. Bloody read about the case before you start pontificating over
other's reasons for criticising the good doctor.

That goes for the politicians
too and most private doctors who conduct "fraudulent" and "biased",
"funded" research for industry.


And you think that's ok?

It's not me who's the lackey then.


  #24  
Old September 12th 05, 11:13 PM
Mark Probert
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rich wrote:
"Clinton" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rich wrote:

"Clinton" wrote in message
egroups.com...

Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them is
beyond unethical; it is criminal.


It seems the bulk of the "accusations" are "political" charges
of conflict of interest which as already pointed out could be
leveled at any doctor doing research or working for the government.
And suppose a link was or is found. He would be hero.

I have no idea what a lumbar puncture is so I don't know if this
and other tests done on the children, were ethical or not.



A lumbar puncture, popularly known as a "spinal tap" is an invasive
procedure that entails inserting a needle between the 4th and 5th lumbar
vertibrae into the spinal canal for the purpose of withdrawing specimens of
cerebrospinal fluid. When indicated for the diagnosis of disease, it is an
immensely valuable tool, but it is not without risks. To expose children to
those risks, simply in the hope of gathering ammunition for an anti-vac
agenda, when the procedure has no diagnostic value whatsoever for the
children, is abuse of the most vile sort.


Agreed. YS had a LP to test his response to Baclofen before he had major
surgery. While invasive, it is far less invasive than the major surgery.
If there was no response to Baclofen, we would have gone home to search
for more treatments.

  #25  
Old September 13th 05, 01:02 AM
HCN
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Rich" wrote in message
...

"Clinton" wrote in message
oups.com...

Rich wrote:
"Clinton" wrote in message
oups.com...


Doing lumbar punctures on children who can derive no benefit from them
is
beyond unethical; it is criminal.


It seems the bulk of the "accusations" are "political" charges
of conflict of interest which as already pointed out could be
leveled at any doctor doing research or working for the government.
And suppose a link was or is found. He would be hero.

I have no idea what a lumbar puncture is so I don't know if this
and other tests done on the children, were ethical or not.


A lumbar puncture, popularly known as a "spinal tap" is an invasive
procedure that entails inserting a needle between the 4th and 5th lumbar
vertibrae into the spinal canal for the purpose of withdrawing specimens
of cerebrospinal fluid. When indicated for the diagnosis of disease, it is
an immensely valuable tool, but it is not without risks. To expose
children to those risks, simply in the hope of gathering ammunition for an
anti-vac agenda, when the procedure has no diagnostic value whatsoever for
the children, is abuse of the most vile sort.
--


I've seen anti-vax folks wonder why no one did the same studies as
Wakefield. I'll make the conjecture that not only was the premise flawed,
BUT that it violated a few rules pertaining to human subjects.



--Rich

Recommended websites:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
http://www.acahf.org.au
http://www.quackwatch.org/
http://www.skeptic.com/
http://www.csicop.org/




 




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