"Parenting Without Punishing"

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Donna Metler wrote:

"toto" wrote in message
No, actually, what has been pushed is *not* teaching without
punishing, though teaching without corporal punishment has been
pushed in 27 states for more than a decade.

Using different punishments like detentions and bad grades is still
punitive. And what has been pushed is using material rewards like
stickers and bribes which is the other side of the control coin. It
works just as poorly.

Detention isn't allowed in my school-too many parents don't want it. IN
general, just about everything which could be deemed "punitive" has been
disallowed. A teacher in my school was given a formal reprimand just for
requiring that students clean up a mess that they had made-because it was
"humiliating" for the students.

And teachers are told not to use rewards because it "ruins intrinsic
motivation".
-------------------
You're merely lying in everything you just said. How pitiful.
Steve

Looking in the mirror again, Steve? ;-)

Doan
---------------
You're extremely stupid.
Doesn't your ignorance embarrass you?
Of course not, YOU'RE TOO IGNORANT!!
Steve

LOL! And you are a "never-spanked" kid with "****" oozing
out of his mouth!
Doan
----------------
No. You're the only sick piece of ****-for-brains here.
Steve

LOL! It's you! The only time when **** doesn't get to your mouth is when
you're constipated!

Doan

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On 17 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:

This brings us right back to our aborted, unfinished debate of 2001,
Nathan; aborted because you disappeared and days later said you "didn't
have time" to debate about the scientific studies on spanking.

You did your best to discredit the available evidence linking spanking
to a wide variety of negative long term effects on children. When you
disappeared was after I invited you to now produce evidence of equal rigor
in support of your own position, adding that I would of course expect your
evidence to meet all of the same standards you had recently demanded of
evidence cited by me.

Three years later, I ask you again: where is your scientific evidence
of measurable long term benefit to children from spanking? If you have
none, please signify by ignoring this question, or perhaps by vanishing
again.

Chris

Here is what Chris said about Straus & Mouradina (1998) study in the past:

However, there is evidence that this connection exists,
however it may work. Gunnoe & Mariner (1997) and Straus et al. (1997)
both found that the more children were spanked at the beginning of each
study, the more their behavior had deteriorated years later in
comparison
with other children the same age, despite controlling for a variety of
other variables such as maternal warmth/involvement, family
socioeconomic
status, race, sex, etc. Since neither of these studies had a "never
spanked" group, they cannot rule out the possibility that low levels of
spanking had positive effects. However, another study did look at
children who had never been spanked by their mothers versus children who
were spanked very infrequently and the difference in age adjusted
antisocial behavior scores was quite pronounced. The children in the
never-spanked group were markedly more well-behaved than even the most
rarely-spanked children.


And my response:

"Chris is now admitting that there are evidence of beneficial effects
of low-level spanking.
------------------
No, you were a ****ty little liar then as now.
Steve

LOL! Typical respond from a "never-spanked" boy. And I thought you
were constipated!

Doan
---------------------
You're the one who's full of ****!
Steve

Then how did it get to your mouth? :-)
Doan
-------------------------
Your mouth, your lying ****.
Steve

It's either YOUR mouth or my ass-hole!

Doan

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Lesa wrote:


"Tori M." wrote in message
...
This whole thing is unrealistic and will set a child to fail later in
life.
If you do something bad 90% of the time there will be consequences.

What you don't seem to realize is that eliminating punishment is not
eliminating consequences. In a school setting if a child does not do their
homework, they get a poor-- this is consequences. What is not necessary are
lectures, remaining after school, notes home to parents, meetings about what
a terrible child this is, etc. A simple statement from the teacher that
this child *WILL* receive a poor grade if this behavior continues, followed
by a poor grade is all that is necessary.

And what are the results of this philosophy? Do the students learned
more? Do the schools no longer need cops nor metal detectors?

In the home setting there are also consequences. If you spill your drink at
diner, you clean it up-- again, no lectures, or spankings or time in the
corner or restrictions are needed.

What if the children don't want to clean it up?

Doan
-------------
If you don't abuse them, they don't suffer your kind of emotional
and motivational distortion, and they naturally want to be nice
to people who have been nice to THEM!
Steve

Like you? :-)
Doan
-------------
Yes! I only assault abusers.
Steve

And I only **** into your mouth! :-)

Doan

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Lesa wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Lesa wrote:


"Tori M." wrote in message
...
This whole thing is unrealistic and will set a child to fail later in
life.
If you do something bad 90% of the time there will be consequences.

What you don't seem to realize is that eliminating punishment is not
eliminating consequences. In a school setting if a child does not do
their
homework, they get a poor-- this is consequences. What is not necessary
are
lectures, remaining after school, notes home to parents, meetings about
what
a terrible child this is, etc. A simple statement from the teacher that
this child *WILL* receive a poor grade if this behavior continues,
followed
by a poor grade is all that is necessary.

And what are the results of this philosophy? Do the students learned
more? Do the schools no longer need cops nor metal detectors?

In the home setting there are also consequences. If you spill your
drink at
diner, you clean it up-- again, no lectures, or spankings or time in the
corner or restrictions are needed.

What if the children don't want to clean it up?

Doan

Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than a very
very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity for one's
actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you expect of
them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative manner, they do
so. If you expect that a child will constantly rebel and refuse to do what
is required, they do this as well. On those rare occasions where a child
would not want to clean up, all that is necessary is disussing with the
child that you understand that they don't want to do this now, but that it
needs to be done and you would appreciate their taking care of it -- neve
rhad a problem beyond that.

Good for you! You seem to have figured out what work with your kids.
---------------
It works with ALL kids, asshole!



The
problem I have with this is when you try to generalize it to everyone.
----------------
The only reason YOUR sort of emotionally distorted personality
can't make it work is NOT because of YOUR children, but because
of YOU, you're a ****ing raving abusive paranoid!


As
you acknowledged, it didn't work 100% of the times even with your own
kids!
----------------
She never said that, asshole liar!
She told you what to do!


Imagine a single-mom having to catch a bus to work in the morning
and uncooperating child that don't want to go to daycare that day.
--------------------
You support her till the child is old enough to go to school.
You provide a society that understands such things.

Like they tried in the Soviet Union? :-)
----------------------
No. Much better.


If your society doesn't do that then the society is abusive,
and she is excused for any crime she has to commit for her kid.


What are the consequences in this case? Theory is nice, but
reality is what really bites!
Doan
----------------------
As long as
you persist in abuse, you will fail as a parent.
Steve

Nope! They should just kill the kid before it turned 3-month old, like
I would if I have kid like you! :-)
Doan
------------------------
Then you'd die like a ****.
Steve

LOL! And you eat **** and die, "never-spanked" boy.

Doan

"Doan" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Doan wrote:

Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than a
very
very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity
for one's
actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you
expect of
them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative manner,
they do
so. If you expect that a child will constantly rebel and refuse to
do what
is required, they do this as well. On those rare occasions where a
child
would not want to clean up, all that is necessary is disussing with
the
child that you understand that they don't want to do this now, but
that it
needs to be done and you would appreciate their taking care of it --
neve
rhad a problem beyond that.

Good for you! You seem to have figured out what work with your kids.
The
problem I have with this is when you try to generalize it to everyone.
As
you acknowledged, it didn't work 100% of the times even with your own
kids! Imagine a single-mom having to catch a bus to work in the
morning
and uncooperating child that don't want to go to daycare that day.
What
are the consequences in this case? Theory is nice, but reality is
what
really bites!

What age is the child? So much depends on their age in cases like
this and on the reason the child does not want to go to this daycare.

The child can be 3,4,5,6. The reason is he/she just doesn't feel like it!

Doan

Children who have been given respect and kindness will not do this. There
will be a reason that the child does not want to go to daycare. It may take
time for the parent to disucss this chid's concerns, but the disucssion must
take place.

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:38:21 -0700, Doan wrote:


On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Doan wrote:

Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than
a very
very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity
for one's
actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you
expect of
them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative
manner, they do
so. If you expect that a child will constantly rebel and refuse
to do what
is required, they do this as well. On those rare occasions where
a child
would not want to clean up, all that is necessary is disussing
with the
child that you understand that they don't want to do this now, but
that it
needs to be done and you would appreciate their taking care of
it -- neve
rhad a problem beyond that.

Good for you! You seem to have figured out what work with your
kids. The
problem I have with this is when you try to generalize it to
everyone. As
you acknowledged, it didn't work 100% of the times even with your
own
kids! Imagine a single-mom having to catch a bus to work in the
morning
and uncooperating child that don't want to go to daycare that day.
What
are the consequences in this case? Theory is nice, but reality is
what
really bites!

What age is the child? So much depends on their age in cases like
this and on the reason the child does not want to go to this daycare.

The child can be 3,4,5,6. The reason is he/she just doesn't feel like
it!

You treat a 3 year old differently than you do a 6 year old.

Ok! How so?

And there is *always* something more to the reason than they don't
feel like it despite the child's inability to express the real reason.

The bus is leaving in 5 minutes! Does it matters?



If you care about your child, then *YES* their feelings, thoguhts and
concerns most certainly do matter, regardless of what their age may be.

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:59:24 -0500, "Lesa"
wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Lesa wrote:


"Tori M." wrote in message
...
This whole thing is unrealistic and will set a child to fail later
in
life.
If you do something bad 90% of the time there will be consequences.

What you don't seem to realize is that eliminating punishment is not
eliminating consequences. In a school setting if a child does not do
their
homework, they get a poor-- this is consequences. What is not
necessary
are
lectures, remaining after school, notes home to parents, meetings
about
what
a terrible child this is, etc. A simple statement from the teacher
that
this child *WILL* receive a poor grade if this behavior continues,
followed
by a poor grade is all that is necessary.

And what are the results of this philosophy? Do the students learned
more? Do the schools no longer need cops nor metal detectors?

In the home setting there are also consequences. If you spill your
drink at
diner, you clean it up-- again, no lectures, or spankings or time in
the
corner or restrictions are needed.

What if the children don't want to clean it up?

Doan

Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than a very
very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity for
one's
actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you expect of
them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative manner, they
do
so.

While I agree with this to an extent, I also think it is partly how
*you* model cooperation and responsibility.

Do you as a parent clean up your own messes? Does your
spouse or s/o? If so, your child is pretty likely to learn to do so
since you expect it of everyone in the household.

When your child asks you to cooperate with him, do you
help him or refuse because it's *his* responsibility?

Very good point, Dorothy. At home DH and I do model these things. We share
the workload (part of being a family) we listen to one anothers thoughts and
feelings (part of being a family) and we show respect for one another, as
well as others we encounter (part of being human and sharing the planet we
live on). We don't ahve a lot of set responsiblities, but share them.
Things like feeding the dogs, vacuuming the house, making meals, cleaning up
after meals, etc are shared by all as they are needed. For example, when a
dog says he needs to go out, often all of us will head to the door to let
him out -- we just know that we need to respond to this. When someone
notices that the carpet in the living room has dog hair on it, that person
vacuums it. The person who throws something out and fills the trash can
changes that bag, and if the large barrel in the garage is full that person
will take the barrel to the dumpster at the end of the road. Yes, tehre are
times we cannot do these things (invovled in a major project, engrossed in a
good book, not feeling well, whatever) and then we ask for assistance. I
didn't need to take punitve action regarding this, its just simply the way
we do things.

In the school setting, I've taken a similar tact. I've never had problems
in that setting, even with special needs students as young as 3. There are
times when we a child simply does not want to, then we take time to discuss
why, and what might happen if tasks such as these are not completed.
Punitve actions, yelling, lectures, etc are not necessary.

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
Donna Metler wrote:

As I've stated, a teacher recieved a formal reprimand for requiring a
group
of students clean up a mess (after they decided to shoot spitballs in
the
library)-because that was degrading. So much for a logical conseqence.
--------------------
If they are to clean up, then provide the tools. IT IS degrading to
be made to pick them up by hand, and handling other people's spitballs
IS unsanitary and a violation of child safety regulations.


As far as grades go, grades are considered punitive by some parents
too-so
much so that schools in some districts aren't supposed to post graded
work,
honor rolls and the like.
------------------
Systematic humilation does not benefit students. The grades are still
there for evluation purposes. Grades SHOULD be absolutely private,
like medical records.


And sending homework home is asking to have
parents down your throat complaining that it's interfering with family
time.
------------------
Families have so little time today with long travel times to decent
employment that this is understandable, the school day should be
lengthened and schools kept open for math and english exercises.



While I agree that families have too little time, and homework should be
kept to a minimum -- long term research projects, and study for exams only--
I have a different solution. The school day should not be lengthened but
shortened, and the school year itself should be lengthened. Elementary
schools in our area do not dismiss until 3:45-4:00, so that by the time
students arrive home on the bus it could be as late as 5:00. Middle and
high schools dismiss approximately 2:30- 2:45, but with clubs and sports
these students are also often not arriving home until 5:00 or later. IMO
the school day should end 1 1/2 - 2 hours early, but school should go
year-round. Rather than the period from Memorial Day to Labor Day off, have
a week at Memorial Day, a week at Independence Day, and a week at Labor Day.
Add in a full week at Thanksgiving, 2 full weeks at the end of
December/beginning of January, and a full week mid-March. This system will
eliminate the need to review and regroup at the beginning of the school
year, allow for more consistency in education, and allow for more family
time in the evenings.

Keep in mind that in the adult world, the consequence of refusing to do
one's job on an ongoing basis is getting fired. So it's not as if
imposing
something more serious than a bad grade on a child would be out of line
with
the consequences adults face for similar behavior.

In the adult world if one is not matched to one's job (be it due to
co-workers, employers, or interest) one is able to leave that job and find
another. Children are not able to do this. They must remain with their
given teacher, school, classmates, etc with no thought given to their
abilities, strengths or weaknesses. Why should I engage in punitive action
toward a child who is engaging in his/her studies to the best of he/her, but
still getting a poor grade? Grades are not the basis of life.

"Kim E." wrote in message
a.net...
In article ,
says...

"Tori M." wrote
This whole thing is unrealistic and will set a child to fail later in
life.
If you do something bad 90% of the time there will be consequences.

What you don't seem to realize is that eliminating punishment is not
eliminating consequences. In a school setting if a child does not do
their
homework, they get a poor-- this is consequences. What is not necessary
are
lectures, remaining after school, notes home to parents, meetings about
what
a terrible child this is, etc. A simple statement from the teacher that
this child *WILL* receive a poor grade if this behavior continues,
followed
by a poor grade is all that is necessary.

I am just curious - do you see getting suspended or expelled from school
as a punishment or natural consequence? And what type of consequence
would you suggest for children in schools who sexually molest another
student, bring weapons or drugs to school, assault other students or
teachers?

-kim

Actions such as molestation, possession of illegal drugs, and assault are
crimes. They already have stated consequences. At no time have I stated
that actions do not contain consequences. Again, however, those
consequences have a place and a procedure. Such actions are turned over the
their proper authorities (i.e. the local police department). There is not
need for lectures, yelling, hitting, etc from parents or school.