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#61
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Lesa wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Lesa wrote: "Tori M." wrote in message ... This whole thing is unrealistic and will set a child to fail later in life. If you do something bad 90% of the time there will be consequences. What you don't seem to realize is that eliminating punishment is not eliminating consequences. In a school setting if a child does not do their homework, they get a poor-- this is consequences. What is not necessary are lectures, remaining after school, notes home to parents, meetings about what a terrible child this is, etc. A simple statement from the teacher that this child *WILL* receive a poor grade if this behavior continues, followed by a poor grade is all that is necessary. And what are the results of this philosophy? Do the students learned more? Do the schools no longer need cops nor metal detectors? In the home setting there are also consequences. If you spill your drink at diner, you clean it up-- again, no lectures, or spankings or time in the corner or restrictions are needed. What if the children don't want to clean it up? Doan Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than a very very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity for one's actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you expect of them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative manner, they do so. If you expect that a child will constantly rebel and refuse to do what is required, they do this as well. On those rare occasions where a child would not want to clean up, all that is necessary is disussing with the child that you understand that they don't want to do this now, but that it needs to be done and you would appreciate their taking care of it -- neve rhad a problem beyond that. Good for you! You seem to have figured out what work with your kids. The problem I have with this is when you try to generalize it to everyone. As you acknowledged, it didn't work 100% of the times even with your own kids! Imagine a single-mom having to catch a bus to work in the morning and uncooperating child that don't want to go to daycare that day. What are the consequences in this case? Theory is nice, but reality is what really bites! Doan |
#62
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 03:42:12 -0700, Doan wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:42:25 -0500, "Tori M." wrote: To raise a child to not have cause and effect other then the "natural consequenses" (IE sticking a fork in the outlet will get the child shocked) is just as bad IMO then to over punish a child. Children learn easily that *other people* can be punitive without having their parents punish them. Yes, that is why it is better for their parents to prepare them for the REAL WORLD, not Oz land. Do you want your children to grow up and be like Steve? :-) Parents do NOT have to punish kids to prepare them for the *real world.* They do have to instill a sense of ethics and a sense of self-discipline. For some, yes; for all? Kids are individuals. There is no one size fits all solution. My children both have that and I am now helping to raise my grandchildren in the same way. Good! Are they better than the Serena/Venus Williams sisters? Are they better than Ted Turner? Mother Theresa? I have said before that permissive parenting is not the same thing as positive parenting. Giving in to the whims of anyone doesn't help them to learn to respect the feelings of the other person involved. But there is no need to punish children to accomplish this. Now where did I say anything about permissive. I am talking about doing what best for your kids. Parents are the best ones to decide what discipline strategy works best for their kids. Doan |
#63
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
On 18 Jun 2004, Daniel wrote: doan wrote: Toto wrote My children both have that and I am now helping to raise my grandchildren in the same way. Good! Are they better than the Serena/Venus Williams sisters? Are they better than Ted Turner? Mother Theresa? Did I miss the article where the williams sisters claimed they learnt tennis by being spanked then? Are you saying that their parents raised them using non-punitive method???? Doan |
#64
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:14:36 -0700, Doan wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 03:42:12 -0700, Doan wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:42:25 -0500, "Tori M." wrote: To raise a child to not have cause and effect other then the "natural consequenses" (IE sticking a fork in the outlet will get the child shocked) is just as bad IMO then to over punish a child. Children learn easily that *other people* can be punitive without having their parents punish them. Yes, that is why it is better for their parents to prepare them for the REAL WORLD, not Oz land. Do you want your children to grow up and be like Steve? :-) Parents do NOT have to punish kids to prepare them for the *real world.* They do have to instill a sense of ethics and a sense of self-discipline. For some, yes; for all? Kids are individuals. There is no one size fits all solution. Kids are individuals. Punishment is a one size solution. Positive parenting adapts to individuals. Punishment is NOT a one size nor the ONLY solution! Punishment that fit the crime adapts to the individual and the misbehavior. Positive parenting PLUS punishment as a backup give you the BEST of both worlds. My children both have that and I am now helping to raise my grandchildren in the same way. Good! Are they better than the Serena/Venus Williams sisters? Are they better than Ted Turner? Mother Theresa? Better how? I would never compare my kids to other people as they are themselves not those others. So you don't mind if your kids turn into a STEVE? Do you of any kid that overcome so much like the Williams - with your non-punitive disciplinary style? I have said before that permissive parenting is not the same thing as positive parenting. Giving in to the whims of anyone doesn't help them to learn to respect the feelings of the other person involved. But there is no need to punish children to accomplish this. Now where did I say anything about permissive. I am talking about doing what best for your kids. Parents are the best ones to decide what discipline strategy works best for their kids. You are talking about permissive vs punitive. That's all you folks ever do. You cannot get it through your heads that there is another way that is neither. Doan Come on, Dorothy! After all these years and you still come up with such a strawman. There is more than one way! It's up to the parents to find the way that is BEST for their kids. Notice that I've NEVER said you are doing it the wrong way with your kids. You, on the hand, are saying that your way is the ONLY WAY! Doan |
#65
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Doan wrote: Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than a very very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity for one's actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you expect of them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative manner, they do so. If you expect that a child will constantly rebel and refuse to do what is required, they do this as well. On those rare occasions where a child would not want to clean up, all that is necessary is disussing with the child that you understand that they don't want to do this now, but that it needs to be done and you would appreciate their taking care of it -- neve rhad a problem beyond that. Good for you! You seem to have figured out what work with your kids. The problem I have with this is when you try to generalize it to everyone. As you acknowledged, it didn't work 100% of the times even with your own kids! Imagine a single-mom having to catch a bus to work in the morning and uncooperating child that don't want to go to daycare that day. What are the consequences in this case? Theory is nice, but reality is what really bites! What age is the child? So much depends on their age in cases like this and on the reason the child does not want to go to this daycare. The child can be 3,4,5,6. The reason is he/she just doesn't feel like it! Doan |
#66
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
Doan wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote: "R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... Nathan A. Barclay wrote: You can bully such teachers by arranging appointments with them and haranguing them, they are late getting home a number of times and they learn not to **** with your kid. Also, you let the kid leave school at 14 or 15 or home-school them and dummy the reports to the state. If you're a great parent your kid will learn more on their own anyway. Yet another example of, "Coercion is terrible. Let's use coercion to get rid of it." (And note, by the way, that this is an example of coercion used when the person being targeted is NOT violating the law.) -------------------- They are violating other PEOPLE, the law is a lagging ass!!! We're gonna correct that! Steve |
#67
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote: Doan wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote: "R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... Nathan A. Barclay wrote: You can bully such teachers by arranging appointments with them and haranguing them, they are late getting home a number of times and they learn not to **** with your kid. Also, you let the kid leave school at 14 or 15 or home-school them and dummy the reports to the state. If you're a great parent your kid will learn more on their own anyway. Yet another example of, "Coercion is terrible. Let's use coercion to get rid of it." (And note, by the way, that this is an example of coercion used when the person being targeted is NOT violating the law.) -------------------- They are violating other PEOPLE, the law is a lagging ass!!! We're gonna correct that! Steve Typical rant from a "never-spanked" kid. :-) Doan |
#68
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:38:21 -0700, Doan wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Doan wrote: Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than a very very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity for one's actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you expect of them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative manner, they do so. If you expect that a child will constantly rebel and refuse to do what is required, they do this as well. On those rare occasions where a child would not want to clean up, all that is necessary is disussing with the child that you understand that they don't want to do this now, but that it needs to be done and you would appreciate their taking care of it -- neve rhad a problem beyond that. Good for you! You seem to have figured out what work with your kids. The problem I have with this is when you try to generalize it to everyone. As you acknowledged, it didn't work 100% of the times even with your own kids! Imagine a single-mom having to catch a bus to work in the morning and uncooperating child that don't want to go to daycare that day. What are the consequences in this case? Theory is nice, but reality is what really bites! What age is the child? So much depends on their age in cases like this and on the reason the child does not want to go to this daycare. The child can be 3,4,5,6. The reason is he/she just doesn't feel like it! You treat a 3 year old differently than you do a 6 year old. Ok! How so? And there is *always* something more to the reason than they don't feel like it despite the child's inability to express the real reason. The bus is leaving in 5 minutes! Does it matters? Aside from that, of course, a 5 or 6 year old would be going to school in the morning not daycare. Ok! With a three year old, you pick him up an bring him with you despite protests. And that is POSITIVE? You do accept his feelings and allow him to vent them. If he is angry, you find appropriate ways for him to tell you this. You also have to address what is really wrong. With a 6 year old, it is quite doubtful that you would have this problem if you handled him as a 3 year old with love and empathy for his feelings. As long as you actually allow him to be angry, most kids get over tantrums pretty quickly and if you have allowed sufficient time in the morning to get going, he would most likely have finished before you had to get out the door to the bus stop. If not, you may have to carry him for a bit. This is not to say it won't be difficult. It will, but if you deal with tantrums consistently, they don't happen very often even at 2 years old. And you will figure all of this out before the bus leaves? I *would* worry about a child who didn't want to go to daycare or school on a regular basis because it might mean someone there was bullying him or that the placement was a poor one for him for some other reason. Who said on a regular basis. I am giving you a real life problem for this ONE morning! This daycare center just happenned to be the most convenient in term of location and price. That's life! Doan |
#69
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
Here I will make it easier for you. Say I was on my way out the door it is
7:15 on a sunny July day I am bringing my 3 year old my 5 year old and my newborn out to the car because I am already running 15 minutes behind because for whatever reason DH was not there to help me that day. Anyway my 5 year old has decided that she does not want to go to daycare that day because it as already warm enough to swim but mommy has to go to work because our bills need to be paid. So while I *calmly* put my younger 2 in their apropriate car seats my 3 year old decides to start in on wanting to go swimming and thankfully my newborn can not talk because he would want to go to. Anyway now I have at least 2 whining children that I need to now drive while my nerves are slowly erroding and I need to get to work but my 5 year old child now needs to be reasoned with as to calm down the 3 year old. Now normaly day care/ school is no problem but Today it is differant. How much time do you spend explaining to precious 5 year old that mommy has to go to work before you just tell her to get her but in the car and no there would be no pool today or tomorrow if they keep up the screaming? That would be action/punishment in my opinion. Not that this matters but I am actualy planning on homeschooling based on my childrens interests.. that is that if my child likes Science we will do projects that teach the kids all the core stuff along with it. I had decided not to use a set curriculum now I just have to convince DH of that That said my 5-6 year old will not be going to school per say and who knows maybe I will use a daycare once or twice a week if needed to do errands. Tori -- Bonnie 3/20/02 Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04 "toto" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:38:21 -0700, Doan wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, toto wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:42:06 -0700, Doan wrote: Quite honeslty this in not something I've encountered on more than a very very infrequent basis. It is understood that taking responsiblity for one's actions is expected, and I've found that children will what you expect of them. If you expect that a child will act in a cooperative manner, they do so. If you expect that a child will constantly rebel and refuse to do what is required, they do this as well. On those rare occasions where a child would not want to clean up, all that is necessary is disussing with the child that you understand that they don't want to do this now, but that it needs to be done and you would appreciate their taking care of it -- neve rhad a problem beyond that. Good for you! You seem to have figured out what work with your kids. The problem I have with this is when you try to generalize it to everyone. As you acknowledged, it didn't work 100% of the times even with your own kids! Imagine a single-mom having to catch a bus to work in the morning and uncooperating child that don't want to go to daycare that day. What are the consequences in this case? Theory is nice, but reality is what really bites! What age is the child? So much depends on their age in cases like this and on the reason the child does not want to go to this daycare. The child can be 3,4,5,6. The reason is he/she just doesn't feel like it! You treat a 3 year old differently than you do a 6 year old. And there is *always* something more to the reason than they don't feel like it despite the child's inability to express the real reason. Aside from that, of course, a 5 or 6 year old would be going to school in the morning not daycare. With a three year old, you pick him up an bring him with you despite protests. You do accept his feelings and allow him to vent them. If he is angry, you find appropriate ways for him to tell you this. You also have to address what is really wrong. With a 6 year old, it is quite doubtful that you would have this problem if you handled him as a 3 year old with love and empathy for his feelings. As long as you actually allow him to be angry, most kids get over tantrums pretty quickly and if you have allowed sufficient time in the morning to get going, he would most likely have finished before you had to get out the door to the bus stop. If not, you may have to carry him for a bit. This is not to say it won't be difficult. It will, but if you deal with tantrums consistently, they don't happen very often even at 2 years old. I *would* worry about a child who didn't want to go to daycare or school on a regular basis because it might mean someone there was bullying him or that the placement was a poor one for him for some other reason. Doan -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#70
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"Parenting Without Punishing"
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... Nathan A. Barclay wrote: Grades are merely a measurement device. Thus, the reward of a good grade is the reward of doing something successfully, much as winning a game because one played it well is a reward or playing a song on the piano well is a reward. Conversely, bad grades "punish" in the same sense that losing a game as a result of making mistakes is a "punishment" or making mistakes while playing the piano is a "punishment." ---------------------- Kids KNOW whether they are doing well, just from doing it. Not really. Children can think they know how to do something but then turn out to have been doing it the wrong way. (And no, I'm not just talking about doing it a different right way from what the teacher said.) So some kind of system of identifying mistakes and calling them to children's attention is needed whether or not a formal grade is assigned. ------------ Rarely true. Answers should be available to make certain. They just don't know how the class is doing. Grades compare them to others, and are then inherently not useful, because a child who likes the subject will do as well as they can, and one who doesn't like it, won't, no matter what! You see no possibility that a child's knowledge of how well or poorly he is doing in a subject compared with others might affect the child's priorities? ----------------- See above. Suppose a child wants to be good at both English and Math. If he knows he's doing better than average in Math, but worse than average in English, that could provide an incentive to spend a bit less time on Math and a bit more on English. I don't know how often that sort of thing would happen, but it at least could. ---------------------------- People don't like things depending on their grades. Further, even in purely non-coercive households, parents might try to encourage a child to want to work harder in a subject that the child is not doing well in. ("You want to be a lawyer, right? Lawyers have to be really good in English.") And in coercive families, parents may require a child to study harder in a subject the child is not doing well in. -------------------------------- Coercion doesnt work. Even if it seemed to it still generates only superficial mastery. Steve |
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