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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
Les chiens peuvent aboyer mais la caravane passe. ;-) Doan On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote: [color=blue] beccafromlalaland wrote: I'm snipping away portions of text because the forum I use to post only allows 10,000 characters in a single post. The attributions, so we may who is saying what, are badly mangled. I find the free mail program, Thunderbird, does an excellent job of controlling attributions display properly. It will handle, if your IP provides the service, an excellent newsreader as well. I’ll try to sort through your post as best I can, as to who said what when. Bear with me and correct where you see I might have erred. kane Wrote: beccafromlalaland: I was being playfully friendly with you when I asked for your copy...hence the use of the "LOL" I was joking This below is my response. Ordinarily "LOL" is not used playfully. Playful usually consists of smilies. Such as :-) LOL means Laugh Out Loud which is also an acceptable communication of a joking or playful attitude. Sometimes one must read between the lines to catch the meaning. kane Wrote: No, it is more often used derisively. If one is kidding playfully useually a winker smilie is the preferred symbol. 0;- And the problem with written communication, unless people are long time associates and preferably know each other personally, is that no, one should not have to read between the lines. Doing so creates the kind of errors of assumption you made when I asked you if you used the same tactics with your children, as a question. Or, if you insist that we must “understand each other” and you understood me to be asking a question in a accusatory manner, then my comment about stands. You were using LOL derisively. See how badly it works to force the other to read between the lines? If you can't remember and follow a simple dialouge from day to day that's your problem not mine. In a two way conversation if one asks the other to clarify such a reply is extraordinarily rude. I make NO apology for not being able to follow some specific thought of yours if you do not attribute it when you remark later about it. If for nothing else then for accuracy it needs to be seen adjacent to the later commentary about it. No it becomes your problem if you wish me to follow the thread. Please don't assume you are the only person I have conversations with. What is it especially about you that would be so remarkable that I'd remember from day to day? I have a wife I provide that attention to. I don't have a problem remembering who's who and what's what from day to day week to week, but I do have a very good memory which aids in that. Neither do I, beyond the ordinary. I also have a good memory. That does not mean I remember everything, and especially not fine details that I might NOT have given the weight to the other did. Propertly attribute your remarks please. That is NOT and unreasonable request, while yours that I remember whatever detail out of all your postings contents you chose to refer to blindly, is more certainly an unreasonable request. I may be at an unfair advantage given that talent. It would not do you the least good if I remarked on some past comment of mine with poor reference to the content of my prior remark. You do NOT refer to a prior remark clearly enough for me, or anyone, to know what you are referring to. I can remember the plot and characters of nearly every book I've read in recent years, as well as the lines from plays from highschool. One of those weird things that comes in handy for me but can annoy others. Then you are willing to annoy others deliberately? Refusing to accomodate them in such a simple thing is in fact rude. kane Wrote: Having Lengthy bits of conversation floating through posts irritates me, it is redundant and unnecessary....at least for me Then you have a problem with normal Usenet and Web protocols. Snipping the content of a subject then remarking about it is rude. I don't use "Usenet" and 90% of my postings are on forums in which one can easily scroll up to refresh their memory. You are posting to a Usenet newsgroup (Now delivered by Google...or any other newsreader you wish..but still Usenet) and I do NOT have your forums, nor should I be forced to join them to read your prior posts in the thread. Kindly quote the material you are commenting about. Your newsreader, whatever it is, badly screws up the attributions, so that I had to go through and hand correct the various incorrect “” marks. kane Wrote: In fact, below was yet another one. YOUR comments were in double “” when they should have been singles. I have to hand correct them now for any reader to be able to follow. This is not a personal correspondence. We are in a public forum and it’s inconsiderate of the other readers and posters to post incomprehensible material that loses which author is saying what. Perhaps you should do some memory excercises, to aide in your ability to follow along, without a reference to something either you wrote or you read from an earlier post. You are now, since my requests were politely offered, are being harassing and rude. Actually, that was a serious bit of friendly advice. Doing Memory excercises not only improves your short term memory but there is some evidence that it will improve your recall ability in your waning years. And accourding to a researcher friend of mine may even help lessen the severity of memory loss in Dementia patients. You are being deliberately ageist. My memory in fact is far better than most people my age. My request is not out of line, and it is unreasonable for you to ask this of me above to follow YOUR sloppy posting habits. kane Wrote: (again having to snip double attribution marks to singles) Another bit of advice. and yes I am yelling at you in this next portion just so we are clear. Of course. You are rude. I know that. You've demonstrated it before. You've poked Momma bear one too many times, I'm not rude...I'm defensive. Defensive? I have your family here and threaten them? How? My remarks are to YOU, not your children. In fact I’m the one being DEFENSIVE of your children. You are simply defending yourself against what you took as an insult, and may or may not have been. You cannot know unless you ask. kane Wrote: (again you say I am making a statement, but this yelling is YOUR statement. This time I’ll leave the double attributions so you can see it and do something about it, hopefully) NEVER EVER, MENTION MY PARENTING OR THE WAY I CHOOSE TO RAISE MY CHILDREN IN A DEROGOTORY MANNER AGAIN. NOW Kane responds: Sorry. I'll mention it any time I wish. Now who's being rude? I am not being rude. This is a newsgroup titled “alt.parenting.spanking.” There is nothing rude about discussing children, since they are impossible to remove from such a subject. They are the object of the “spanking” in the title. This is about parenting. One parents children. I do not question your parenting ethics...nor do I even mention your children in posts. I would never DREAM of doing something that rude, not even with provocation. You have been repeatedly rude, almost from the start of this ng. You have accused me, for instance, of not answering your questions, only to find that after I had to jostle you famous “memory” that I had indeed answered them ALL, as asked. Even correctly attributing them in my post. kane Wrote: NO I DIDN’T. The forum you post to and through does NOT translate it’s attributions to other formats, such as google, or various newsreaders. The rest of us are standardized...it’s YOUR forum that is not. And I should NOT have to join your forum to discuss these issues with you. This is USENET, not your forum. This is YOU, incorrectly attributed by YOUR forum service. Get it fixed, or use a proper newsreader. Plenty of free ones to not make this jumbled mess. This is YOU: THIS IS THE SECOND TIME YOU HAVE SAID SOMTHING IN A NASTY TONE TO ME ABOUT WHAT YOU PRESSUME ABOUT MY FAMILY. So what? You have seen fit to be rude and nasty to me, have you not? Yes I have said rude things to you, but NEVER in a million years would I poke you about the way you raise your children. You can’t even keep straight whether or not I’ve answered you. You insult my memory, when your own, that you claim is so special failed you miserably over the claim I hadn’t replied to your questions. You were rude then, you are being so NOW. That hardly equates with any justification to lecture me as you are now doing. You can’t even apply the newsgroup title properly. Children are in the subject field of this ng by default. I WILL ask questions about and discuss children here, yours, mine, or anyone’s I choose. Your “orders” are refused. Again. Here’s some of you polite discourse directed at me from prior posts, after you totally screwed up by NOT properly attributing and thus losing YOUR own way and falsely accusing me of failure to respond: “,,,I didn't quote Kane in my prior post because it would have been more confusing trying to filter through the bs...” “ ... I assume you are intelligiant enough to figure out which portionsof your extensive butt cover....erm clarification of your prior posts I am responding to...but I've been wrong before. ...“ You WERE wrong. And yet YOU are accusing me, where I was trying to direct your attention to correcting your error by the use of direct quotes of my posts, with an insulting comment that I was just trying to “cover” my butt. “Until then get off your hobby horse, and learn to play with the grown ups who actually discuss CURRENT research, CURRENT parenting challenges, and CURRENT solutions to their parenting challenges. b~ “ I did not start the insulting in this exchange with you in this thread. You have pushed the boundary of civility constantly. You began with me by calling my response that exposed Doan for the harassing vicious little provacatuer he obviously is, “childish.” You haven’t let up since. I don’t pretend to be nice, or demand it of others, you phony. Before you correct ME, clean your own house. Or we can continue on our merry way insulting each other – and not going indignant about it, phony. kane Wrote: YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MY FAMILY LIFE, Nonsense. Where’s that famous memory of yours. You wrote that you have two high needs children. That's right, and that is why I did NOT presume about your family. I asked IF you behaved toward your children as you do me. Do you not understand the interogatory sentence? What kind of question is that? An ordinary question. You are an adult, not a child. That’s correct. I treat adults in the way adults should be treated, and I treat children in age appropriate fashion. How would I know that unless I asked you? Do you and realize that you confirmed my feeling that your original question was in fact meant as an insult...or are you going to choose to ignore it? Ignore what? Your “feeling?” No, why should I. Given that I had a “feeling” your comment about getting my copy of the Embry study from me ended in “LOL.” Get it? kane Wrote: A question is a question, not an accusation. I could have been speaking rhetorically, but hte only way to tell for sure is to ask me. Not assume, as you just did. One can ask a question in an accusatory fashion. That is what you did. That question asked in the context it was in was inflamatory. Sure one can. And no, you do not KNOW that it was meant to be “inflamatory”[sic]. And stop pretending YOU have not been deliberately insulting since first posting here and continuously ever since. There are just too many examples. “And you are still arguing about it...one word comes to mine It starts with a C ends with a Y and has RAZ in the middle. “ kane Wrote: Ask me if I meant to be nasty about your child rearing methods. Go ahead. I don't need to you already answered it. No I didn’t. Kane said: I asked IF you behaved toward your children as you do me. That statment answers that question...YES In my opinion you meant to be nasty about my child rearing methods. You cannot logically draw from my question that I meant to be nasty. You can infer it, but nothing logically proves it. It’s your feeling, not a fact. That statement, with the “IF” in it does NOT prove that I meantto be nasty. kane Wrote: AND YET YOU FEEL IT'S ALRIGHT TO FORM ASUMPTIONS ABOUT ME, AND HOW I TREAT MY CHILDREN. A question is not an assumption. the context in which you chose to ask that question, turned it from a question to an assumption. if you had not assumed that I treat my children poorly you would not have asked that question. No such logical inference can be made. I could have asked you that question for a number of reasons, none of which was “nasty.” You made a rude accusatory comment toward me. You have a record of doing so throughout this thread and this ng when you posted to it in response to me, and on an occasion toward me when responding to Doan. I want to know if you treat your children the same way. Is my question provoking the very response that I suspected it might, but hoped it wouldn’t? kane Wrote: What I said was, and thank you for this time not snipping my actually comments from the flow: " Do you treat your children the same way? Or were you just being playfully friendly with me?" Do you see the question mark? Twice? How could you miss it and presume I am making an assumption. It's YOU that made the assumption and accused me. Of course I saw the question marks. Again the context in which you asked the question lead me to the assumption that you were presuming that I treat my children poorly. Nope. That was YOUR reaction. I was concerned you MIGHT BE. And even IF I made such an assumption rather than ACCUSE you, I asked for clarification from you. kane Wrote: How do you know that I feel alright to make assumptions about you, without asking me? How do you feel about asking questions that force someone to assume that you assumed something? No one forces you to assume anything. YOU assume it. You did not even come back with a question to find out IF I meant to be nasty. You simply accused me of it. And further more what gave you the idea that it was OK to ask a question that inflammatory? What is NOT “OK” about asking that question? Unless invited one should never speak of anothers children...and from what I can recall I never gave you any inkling of permission to make comment or question after my children. You joined a newsgroup called, “alt.parenting.spanking.” We aren’t discussing fetish spanking here. We are discussing parents, spanking, and by obvious inference, the children that would or would not be spanked. It would be like me asking after your sex life. No it wouldn’t. One's family life is intensly personal, and unless asked to make comment or question or given express permission to do so it's best to leave well enough alone. No it is not “intensely personal.” I do not preform sexually in public, but I do and have parented in public. I don’t discuss my sex life publically, but I do my parenting. As for “unless asked; Not if you join a newsgroup that is expressly about the subject of children. This one is. That means you have given permission to discuss family life in the context of child rearing. kane Wrote: I asked YOU a question. YOU made a bald faced accusation. See the difference? You asked a question that forced me to become defensive. kane Wrote: “Forced” you? You are FORCED to answer my question? To become “defensive?” You have no other choice, or choices? How about you simply ask me my meaning, first? Then you don’t have to become defensive until you are sure I am trying to be “nasty.” IT IS A VERY RUDE THING TO DO. To ask a question about whether or not you are rude to your children as you appear to be behaving toward me? To assume that I would treat my children as I treat an adult, yes. Full circle, and I will remind you of that with the same response as befo A question is not an assumption or an accusation. It’s a question. Because it is YOU get to answer it as you see fit. You chose to come back and accuse me of being nasty. Which of us is being presumptuous? To bring my children and my family life into a conflict between you and I? YES. beccafromlalaland, the name of this newsgroup is “alt.parenting.spanking.” It’s google (Usenet) description is “Discussion about punishment methods for children.” You wish to only discuss this issue by proxie, and other people and their children? kane Wrote: IT IS AN INSULT, BUT OF COURSE YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT BECAUSE YOU INTEND YOUR "QUESTION" AS AN INSULT. Yelling makes it true, does it? How about you ASK me if I meant to be nasty and insulting? How can you be sure of that unless you ask? Are you not making an assumption about my meaning? With out any real cause to do so? I have answered this already. The context that you asked that question was such that it forced me to assume you were being insulting. The context is this newsgroup, which subject is “children” “parenting” and “Discussion about punishment methods for children.” It is NOT automatically an insult to ask, if someone has been posting a long string of insults if they treat their children the same way, but I certainly can see, given your long string of insults why you might take it as one. kane Wrote: I'll ask it again, in fact, no accusation intended but simply a question related to how rude and attacking and accusatory you are being toward me. Are you doing the same with your children? This has been sufficiently addressed. NO, I am not rude attacking or accusatory with my children. I am relieved to hear that. I had both intent to be nasty and insult you, and some concern that you might carry this attitude into parenting situations. See how easy that was when you stop presuming and answered the question? You then didn’t even have to ask me, I told you freely, as I would, had you ASKED. Yes, and you deserved my implication, beccafromlalaland. And you’ll get more if you keep up the stupid insults. Trust me. kane Wrote: And, beccafromlalaland, your response is clearly indicative that you DO know you are being rude and abusive in your language toward me. Or you wouldn't take offense at my specific question asking if you are being so abusive toward your children. I was/am bieng rude to you...as you have been rude to me. But I must stop, while you continue? Interesting take on debate. Perhaps we both need to go back to primary school and relearn the "golden rule" And any parent being asked if they are abusive toward their children would take offense, and defend themselves. Yup, but they also have choices not to, to consider the poster might have more than one reason for asking, and intended no harm to your children. Do you think I intended to harm your children? If not (and it’s obvious I did not) what’s all your ranting about? It’s about knowing, I believe, that you got caught up with on your constant stream of insults and your accusations. Your deliberate presumptions that I’m lying, and Doan is telling the truth, when in fact any objective reading of his past posts on this subject from it’s beginning, that I supplied you by link would have shown you he only recently found the abstract. Have you actually tried to get it and found it if it is actually still available, as he posted from a screen readout? I’ve seen inaccuracies in those before. AAA, for instance, according to him, told him that they have always had it available. They told me differently, but he insists I’m lying. You swallow what he says, and question what I say. Why is that, beccafromlalaland? Because you are a sucker? Or his style of slimy innuendo and clever lies appeals more? Or are you easily patronized? kane Wrote: Frankly, I think you are a fake. That you likely DO spank your children or will. Your need to be in control is excessive. Rather like Doan, though he's more clever and weasel like. That is your solution to everything isn't it. Hyperbole. No, it is not my “solution to everything.” I have many solutions to many things, and this one in particular does not follow if you bothered to look at posts of mine to other “nonspankers.” My disagreement with them, and you aren’t the only one, indicates I do not blindly accept them just because they are “non-spankers.” Doan, on the other hand has accepted and agreed with and defended PEOPLE THAT COME HERE DEFENDING BEATING OF CHILDREN, not just spanking. That someone who doesn't agree with you on every point must be a fake, a puppet. Nonsense. I don’t even agree with LaVonne on ‘every point.” I hold a different view than her’s on “punishment,” I believe, and I’ve said so publically. She hasn’t though done anything that would suggest she a fake or a puppet. YOU have. So have others, that claimed to be non-spankers, one going so far as to claim I “drove” them back to spanking I was so rude. I fear for the children of someone that shallow and weak...except of course I know damn well it was a ringer that had no intention of becoming a “non-spanker” but was here to harass. I am a recovering "spank-a-holic" I try very hard on a daily basis to use Grace based discipline, and Gentle Parenting. And you're right, I need to be in control...it sucks, I hate that about myself. I was not allowed control over anything not even my own body for 17yrs. Everything was in turmoil constantly so forgive me if I crave control. I worked with teens in mental health for many years. The first thing I told them after the three day observation period to determine baseline behaviors was this: “Yes, it’s not your fault you were beaten, raped, neglected, abused – or whatever – but it IS your fault if you impose your reactions to it on ANYONE BUT THE PERP.” In other words, no excuses. Nor will I accept them. You yelled at my once in this newsgroup, “grow up.” And I had perfectly good reason tobe debating a question of honesty with Doan, so your admonition was totally uncalled for. I think my saying to you now, “Grow up” is right on target. I’m much more invested in you being a non-spanker than winning any argument with you. So when you pull this power trip bull**** on me naturally I’m concerned and ASK if you do this to your kids. If I were anything less than honest here you would not be comparing me to doan...I would get my own category, but because you can not make heads or tails of me because I don't fit your mold of what a Non-spanker thinks and feels then I must be a puppet. Your honesty is what you think I compare you to Doan about? R R R R...no, b~ , it’s not your honesty. It’s your tendency to NOT be honest that did that. The accusations you made that turned out upon examination to be false (thanks for the apology, by the way, I may have missed it or forgotten to acknowledge earlier, but reviewed it today) were what inspired my comparison. Along with the kinds of attacks on the Embry Experiment report. You weren’t simply questioning. You even made up things along the way. And your refusal to get it, but continue to attack it based on partial knowledge from my comments were typical of his bs. He spent a year without it, faking it all the while, picking up bits and pieces from citations likely, and pretending he had it, even miss quoting. And if he had it he’d have known about this, which he did not....he was relying on the partial information in an ABSTRACT which of course is partial by natu There were charts of all 33 of the participants in the study. I knew perfectly well the status of them, but he didn’t know that the 20 existed. Until I spoke of it recently. IF he had known he’d have said. 13 observed, and 20 non-observed. He constantly walks into these little places I leave for him to go. And they prove he’s a liar. But you can’t, or won’t let yourself see it. You’d rather fuss oversome exchange between us and blow that up to become indignant over. I have to ask you why you’d prefer to be patronized by him, than challenged by me? kane Wrote: Chill, lady. If I ask a question, it's a question. You can answer it, no matter what meaning you project into it. Ask. Find out. Stop assuming. Find a better context to ask questions. That’s absurd. That simply reserves to you the right to pick what next to get indignant about. I might ask you about you husband, or ask if you used objects to spank, or if you don’t like carnations. I have NO WAY of knowing ahead of time what you already are sensitive about, or just might pick out of thin are to use to duck a tough challenge of mine. You want polite? Go to a moderated group. These correspondences are a feed to and from Usenet and they are NOT in a moderated group here. kane Wrote: I think you are a puppet here at Doan's behest, doing as he directs you. A three dollar bill. Show me were you have ever posted before that you were opposed to spanking. My other online name is coopnwhitsmommy http://tinyurl.com/db977 I Googled coopnwhitsmommy+spank* for you. There is a specific post at gentlechristianmothers.com entitled How to become a gentle mother that you may find interesting. It was the one that started me down the path to Non-spanking. I take it you are referring to this one: “ How to become a Gentle Mother « on: June 29, 2005, 09:54:07 PM » I am a Spanker...I HATE IT. I was raised in a spanking household. I was spanked for every little infraction and I promised I wouldn't do that to my children...but here I am [[icon reference removed-“bang head”]] I think my big problem is I have no tools to deal with misbehavior. HELP ME “ June of last year. You’re new. How you doing with learning alternatives? Now I’m even more surprised at your response to my offerings about the Embry study. You’ve got just 6 months since you started, July last year, through January of this one. Yet you aren’t interested in a program that describes precisely how to teach a child to reduce unwanted behavior? Or have you learned others in that time? And Why I don't feel spankers are abusive, that they are misguided in their parenting...it wasn't long ago I was one of them. I believe it is in the public domain. If you can access the board without logging in you can see my post count is well over 600 and I would gladly let you read any of my other posts if you so wish,just to prove that I am not a fake. Well, it’s easy enough to find. You apparently aren’t faking about your desire not to spank. Nevertheless I find your style here, and your defense of a proven slimy little liar incongruent to that end. Allowing him to divert you from such important work as Embry’s isn’t suggestive of a real interest in learning the methods of non-spanking parenting, in my mind. You mistake my sometimes harsh approach....I think of it as demanding you THINK FOR YOURSELF... for something other than it is. Just a demand. And yes, I DO know how those that have taken up non-spanking generally respond. If you search the archives you can find them here. Rare as they are in this ng. You have NOT been responding like any non-spankers I’ve run into before. They are usually eager to explore. They don’t consider a few minutes reading to be an imposition in something so vital as learning new ways of parenting that you ask for in your post to the above cited forum. I am doing what Doan LIES about doing. Asking you to think for yourself. And I don’t lie about being “neutral,” as he does. I’m honestly and plainly against spanking and other deliberate attempts to hurt and humiliate children to teach them. I disagree, by the way with your definition about abuse and spanking, and the intent of parents. “I don't feel spankers are abusive, that they are misguided in their parenting..” That reads, if you go on, as an excuse for yourself. You don’t want, apparently, to think of yourself as having abused your children by spanking them. If you hit them to cause them pain, which you did if you were a “spanker,” then you abused them. It’s not complicated, and it does not allow for excuses. You did it. Admit. Decide not to do it. And move on. That is the courageous admission you need to make if you truly do not want to revert to spanking and humiliation. Actually DO think for yourself, instead of look for the Doan’s of the world to “excuse you.” He’s a slimy lying creep that has haunted this ng from early on. Snide, nasty, lying and conniving, as he was taught to be. He can’t read a sentence that he can’t twist and misconstrue. Go ahead, read his history of posts. And when you say, “it’s not about you” (Doan and Kane) you are verymuch mistaken. It is most certaily about the debate between the Doans and the Kanes. The spanking advocates and apologists, and those of us that disagree with pain and humiliation being moral or useful as a way to raise responsible citizens. Wallow in Doan's slime, or answer hard challenges. It's up to you. -- beccafromlalaland Kane |
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