the dreaded "sleep thru night" thread

Dave wrote:

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

The
OP's baby is only 6 months old. That's a far cry from
the situation with an 18 month old toddler.


We did it at 5 months old the first time, worked even faster, 1-1/2 awful
crying-filled nights.


IIRC, even Ferber does not advocate his method for
that age. I've never used CIO (with three children) and
have never had a single crying-filled night, nor have my
children had any difficulties going to sleep.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:59:30 GMT, "David Spear"
wrote:

The third night starts at 15 minutes, maxing out at 25 and so on. By night
3 they are having to cry 15-25 minutes at a time over and over and quite
frankly I think they get tired of it and really do learn that while we may
go in and reassure them, they are not going to nurse to sleep and they are
wasting their time asking.

Yep, that is what they learn. They learn they cannot trust their
parents to meet their need for closeness and reassurance too.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:15:28 -0600, wrote:

Right now for 2nights in a row we went over 2hrs of letting him cry and
nothing. No progress. He's just hysterical.

If you really did this to a 6 month old child, I feel very sorry for
him. This is totally wrong and your child is learning that his
parents are not to be trusted to come and see to his needs when
he cries.

Infants don't cry for no reason and you cannot spoil them by letting
them sleep with you and picking them up when they cry.

Eventually, he will give up and sleep, but this will scar your
relationship with him for life.

Er, I beg to differ. Personally, my parents using CIO on me didn't scar my
relationship with THEM for life... it scarred my relationship with SLEEP for
life.

But I do agree... CIO on babies younger than 8 months gives me the willies,
and there are only very narrow situations on babies older than that where
I'd be willing to go that direction.

My kid has had very good sleep habits for years, even though she co-slept
until somewhere between age 3 and age 4. Recently we lost a pet, and she
started having a lot more trouble. So I let her drift off to sleep lying on
the couch in my computer room while I'm doing things on the computer, and
then she goes to bed when I go to bed. Because there's no NEED to force her
to struggle with sleep. There just isn't.

Jenrose

Letting them CIO works for some of the kids some of the time. IMO, you
can tell it works because it isn't a KILLER. For example, when you let
your DS CIO at 3 months (which I personally think is too early), it
worked because he didn't cry for too long and after, what, one or two
nights?, he was sleeping better. That doesn't appear to be happening
now, so you need to find alternative ways to train him to sleep longer
on his own.

First, if you and your wife don't want to co-sleep and have DS nurse
all night, then stop co-sleeping. Yes, I know how hard it is to be UP
with an awake baby in the night; it seems easier to just take him to
bed. But in the medium run, it's a problem for you. (Note that I have
NOTHING against co-sleeping; I just think that, with the exception of
the newborn period and the occasional desperate night, people should
actively choose it, not settle for it and hate it every night.)

Here's what I'd do if I were you and I wanted to stop co-sleeping. I'd
try my damnedest to make sure he got 2 naps during the day, at about
the same time every day. If this is your oldest, you should be able to
manage that. Don't enforce some arbitrary schedule; feel him out and
put him down about when he seems to need to go. Try him at about the
same time next day, etc., until you have discovered the right pattern.
Wake him up after 2.5 hours if you're lucky enough that he sleeps that
long. *Most* babies still need 2 naps at 6 months, so try for 2, but
be open to his suggestions.

Start a little bedtime routine for him (say night night to other
parent, go up and read 2 little books, say night night to the nice
things in the room, sit down and nurse to sleep -- or whatever) and
start being regular about when you put him down, again using his cues
as your guide. Experiment with loveys and blankies until you find one
he loves to cuddle.

Now, decide how long you think he can go at night between feeds. He
should be able to go at least as long at night as he does during the
day. Also, with my difficult middle child, I also imposed the idea
that she should be able to go as many hours between night feeds as she
was months old. So, in your son's case, that'd be 6 hours bwteeen
night feeds. (Not crazy, as lots of 6 MOs are sleeping 10 hours at
night with no feeds.)

He cannot be expected to go from sleeping with mommy and nursing every
15 mins to sleeping in a crib and nursing every 6 hours. Start by
having him go, say 4 hours between feeds. When he wakes up crying, one
of you go to him and rock/sing/whatever him back to sleep. Do it again
and again until 4 hours and that time, she can nurse him. After a
couple of nights, I bet he will stop expecting the breast in less than
4 hours, though he will probably still expect a warm body. This may
take some time.

You see where I'm going with this? Gradually wean him off of constant
comfort nursing, to 4 hours, then 6 hours, or whatever. Once he "only"
needs to be rocked back to sleep, you can think about weaning him off
of that.

The thing to remember about this is that when you start sleep-training
them young, you do tend to have to do it more often. I got my 9 MO (my
3rd baby) to sleep through the night with 1 night involving 2 brief
crying it out sessions, but then the time change happened and she
started getting up at the crack of dawn, which was hell because I work
nights. That resolved on its own, but now she appears to be teething
and she's up at night *again* and needs me. There are so many
situations in the first 12-18 months that end up disrupting whatever
good sleep habits you get them into. Trust your instincts and keep at
it. Good luck!

"Welches" wrote in message
...

Sophie wrote in message
...


A four hour nap?! Sheeh...I wouldn't want to sleep either.

We did naps that were no more than 2 hours, and still do. And no naps
after 4p. P's always asleep by 10, at the latest.

He doesn't sleep through, but at least we get him down at a normal
time,
and up at a normal time.
--
'Tis Herself

My youngest is 23 months and that's what we do. He naps from 12-2
usually.
No way does he go past 4 pm.

We started putting ours down at a bedtime at 6 months old. We got him
whenever he woke up. I wouldn't let a 6 month old CIO, and certainly
not
for an hour or 2.


Depends on the child though.
Dd#1 would have a 4 hour nap finishing at about 5:30 or sometimes later,
then would go to bed at 8:30 and sleep 12 hours. That was when she was
about
10-12 months. After that I had to get her up by 5:00, and no more than 3
hours, if I wanted her to settle easily.

Yep. This is what DS does. We never wake him up from his naps. He wakes
up between 4:30 and 5:30 pm and goes back to bed at 8:30 pm for a full
night's rest until 7:30 am. 3 to 5 hour naps are no problem. He averages 4
hours. If I woke him up early from his nap, he'd be cranky until bedtime
and be sleep deprived as well. No need for that.

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:59:30 GMT, "David Spear"
wrote:

The third night starts at 15 minutes, maxing out at 25 and so on. By
night
3 they are having to cry 15-25 minutes at a time over and over and quite
frankly I think they get tired of it and really do learn that while we
may
go in and reassure them, they are not going to nurse to sleep and they
are
wasting their time asking.

Yep, that is what they learn. They learn they cannot trust their
parents to meet their need for closeness and reassurance too.



Every parent makes a determination about what a child needs and what a child
wants at *some* point in the child's life and makes a begins to set limits
on how far they go to meet the child's wants. What constitutes a want and a
need is wholey the domain of the parents, who look at their child and follow
their instincts. You clearly beleive that closeness and reasurance is a need
that must be met immediately whenever it is demonstrated. In the case of my
son, with whom we used a gentlefied (I love making up words) Ferber
approach, the feeling that he was expressing, as clear as day, was anger not
fear or abandonment. He was getting buckets of love and closeness all day
long. I never got a bit of housework done. We are still paying off the
credit cards from all our takeout. Like a mother can distinguish between
a hungry cry and a hurt cry, a mother can also start to know by six months
fear vs anger. I would certainly agree that the child is learning that their
parent is not meeting something. But the what that is not being met is left
to the judgement of the parent. That is why you cannot use Ferber or pitch a
kid in a crib and let them cry axiomatically. You have to observe your child
and what is in his or her best interest.

One thing that never comes up in the evil cry-it-out debate is the CHILD's
need for sleep. When I was sleeping with my son, we both slept for total
****. I did not really realize that HE was also sleeping for **** until he
started sleeping for longer periods by himself. He became more cheerful
during the day and more able to play. Parents are lambasted for being so
selfish that they have to sleep at the expense of their poor crying child.
But this does not tell the whole picture. It is not much of a stretch to me
that a parent who does not sleep well with others may spawn a like minded
child.

S

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:15:28 -0600, wrote:

Right now for 2nights in a row we went over 2hrs of letting him cry and
nothing. No progress. He's just hysterical.

If you really did this to a 6 month old child, I feel very sorry for
him. This is totally wrong and your child is learning that his
parents are not to be trusted to come and see to his needs when
he cries.


I energetically disagree with this. (Big surprise, hu?)

Infants don't cry for no reason and you cannot spoil them by letting
them sleep with you and picking them up when they cry.


I agree that spoiling is a hugely over rated fear. I agree that children do
not cry for no reason. But a crying child is not the end of the universe
either. The REASON the child is crying may be one that the parent does not
deem approriate to interfere with. The age at which it is appropriate to set
limits is a matter of judgement. For instance, from day one we "allow" our
children to cry when we put them in the car seat. If you are like me, the
first couple of times, you stop every three feet to nurse, check for pokies
in the outfit, rock and reinsert into the car seat. You finally realize that
the drama is dramatically lessened if you just endure the crying until you
get where you are going. And lo and behold, very quickly even the newborn
realized this car seat business is a fact of life and gets over it. I have
heard people say that you HAVE to and this is a matter of life and death. Is
it? Have you never "caused" your child to endure crying in the car seat for
something so life and death as meeting a friend for lunch? (Dorothy, I am
not speaking to "you" specifically when I say "you." I am just spewing
thoughts as they come up.




Eventually, he will give up and sleep, but this will scar your
relationship with him for life.




Utter bull****, if you will parden my bluntness. Now I think that what this
poster did was unwise in that it was crying which was allowed to occur
ineffectively, this will not scar the relationship for life. Children are
flexible, they are not the emotionally tender and fragile things that people
think they are. There are so many examples of children who were expected to
sleep by themselves in their own bed with crying occuring to get there who
are healthy and happy and love their parents and vice versa.

S

"Jenrose" wrote in message
s.com...

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:15:28 -0600, wrote:

Right now for 2nights in a row we went over 2hrs of letting him cry and
nothing. No progress. He's just hysterical.

If you really did this to a 6 month old child, I feel very sorry for
him. This is totally wrong and your child is learning that his
parents are not to be trusted to come and see to his needs when
he cries.

Infants don't cry for no reason and you cannot spoil them by letting
them sleep with you and picking them up when they cry.

Eventually, he will give up and sleep, but this will scar your
relationship with him for life.

Er, I beg to differ. Personally, my parents using CIO on me didn't scar my
relationship with THEM for life... it scarred my relationship with SLEEP
for
life.

But I do agree... CIO on babies younger than 8 months gives me the
willies,
and there are only very narrow situations on babies older than that where
I'd be willing to go that direction.


On what do you base that age?

My kid has had very good sleep habits for years, even though she co-slept
until somewhere between age 3 and age 4. Recently we lost a pet, and she
started having a lot more trouble. So I let her drift off to sleep lying
on
the couch in my computer room while I'm doing things on the computer, and
then she goes to bed when I go to bed. Because there's no NEED to force
her
to struggle with sleep. There just isn't.

Jenrose

Stephanie and Tim wrote:


There are so many examples of children who were expected to
sleep by themselves in their own bed with crying occuring to get there who
are healthy and happy and love their parents and vice versa.


Nevertheless, there are many roads to better sleep
habits, and each have their downsides. When possible, it's
nice to go with a strategy that makes life easier all around.
I personally think that past behavior predicts future
behavior, all other things being equal. Every time your
child cries makes it more likely your child will cry again.
Sometimes, as in the car seat situation you describe, you
have little choice (unless you're willing or able to avoid
the car trip). But I have certainly seen what CIO tactics
seem to do! For instance, if my baby wants to eat and I
can't feed her right away (as usual), not only does she
wail this time, but she'll wail for the next several
feedings instead of just fussing a bit to let me know
she's ready. She clearly gets the message that she had
to raise her voice to get fed last time, and she's going
to do it again until she's convince that her nice voice
will do the trick. Same with sleeping. If she has to
fight to get my attention, then quickly she will escalate
every matter to full volume. When I come when she asks
nicely, she only asks nicely and only asks when she needs
me.
Obviously, once you're in the soup and have sleep
issues, it's much more difficult than if you've managed
your way into a good situation all along. If there are
problems, there may be no really easy way out. But I
do think people ought to be aware of what they can be
setting themselves up for with CIO tactics. Babies are
resilient, yes, but they are also smart cookies.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"toto" wrote
"David Spear" wrote:

The third night starts at 15 minutes, maxing out at 25 and so on. By
night
3 they are having to cry 15-25 minutes at a time over and over and quite
frankly I think they get tired of it and really do learn that while we
may
go in and reassure them, they are not going to nurse to sleep and they
are
wasting their time asking.

Yep, that is what they learn. They learn they cannot trust their
parents to meet their need for closeness and reassurance too.


I'm not buying that. I know that's what Dr. Sears says, but his advice
wasn't working for us. Perhaps his children didn't wake up night after night
every hour needing to be rocked/bounced back to sleep for 20 minutes.
Perhaps he had help so that he or Martha wasn't totally sleep deprived and
becoming a bad parent because of lack of sleep. Perhaps he just doesn't need
as much sleep as I do. Whatever the reason, the entire household was getting
ugly because no one was sleeping.

By using Ferber, which I believe is the gentlest way of CIO, dd learned to
fall asleep by herself in two nights. By the time we got to 15 minutes
without checking on her, she wasn't full-on crying anymore, she was simply
whining. That was the first night and it did go on for quite a while (and we
did have to pick her up once because she was getting hysterical). The second
night her total crying/whining was 20 minutes and we haven't had a problem
since.

I truly believe that if she was being treated horribly, it would have taken
longer for her to learn to put herself to sleep. I'm sure that she was ready
and simply needed help from us. Just as she needs to be taught that biting
Mummy isn't ok, she needed to be taught that she had to put herself to
sleep.

DD knows that when she cries she is picked up and cuddled. When she cries (a
real cry, not just whining) in the night she's also checked on (to ensure
that she hasn't rolled and caught her hand so she's stuck) but that we don't
play at night.

--
Melissa (in Los Angeles)
Mum to Elizabeth 4/13/03