dyslexic child? (long)

"toypup" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:09:50 GMT, Welches wrote:

"toypup" wrote in message

Right now, we are off track. I am just working to catch him up at bit.
The books I choose will be easier, one sentence per page.
Right I get the picture on that. How long are they? The older reading
books
(Jane and Peter in UK) are about 50 pages long. The newer (beginner)
books
may well only have 8-12 so the child can read the whole book rather than
a
page or two.


We read a story today. It was not very long (I could count the number of
sentences in that story). Sentences were only a few words long. Words
repeated frequently. He could read it, but certain words appeared over
and
over and he could not remember them from sentence to sentence. By the end
of the story, he'd have read the same word so many times but still not
know
what it is.


American accent is foreign to me :-)
I was thinking that if she spoke down "Does little Jonny want yumyums?"
Then
he might well imitate her and sound immature because that's how she
speaks
to him. I have known parents who speak down in that sort of way and it
can
have an effect on their child's speech. eg if they used "mummy" and
child's
name rather than "me" and "you", the child may well do this too.

The mom does not speak in babytalk to her kids.


He could be dyslexic, he could have something else, but I'd guess from
what
you've said that he just isn't as bright as your ds.

The problem is that he is the absolute slowest in the class. All the
parents know it (the volunteer rate is very high, so they all see what
happens in the class; I have not discussed anything with them, but I
hear
them gossip amongst themselves). The mom knows her child is the slowest
int the class and is not getting it like other children. She was
entertaining the idea of holding him back last year.

Is your information from last year or are you working with him this year?
If you're working with him this year, even as a volunteer, I think you
have
some authority to metion it to the teacher. As a volunteer, I'd put it as
"how can I help further because he's finding it so hard?" as it's not
your
job to suggest what might be wrong or solutions unless you're asked for
your
opinion.

I worked with him last year in school and this year at my house. Right
now, I offered my services directly to the mom for free. I am not
volunteering through the school.
You sound as though you're really kind to him. Good luck.
Is his maths better? At one stage they used to assume dyslexic if the
English ability was considerably worse than maths, I believe. He may still
struggle with it written though, so you may need to try oral maths.
If he's poor on both then he may well be low ability/learning disability. If
he's much weaker on the English then you could bring up the suggestion of
dyslexic to him mum, emphasisiing that he's much quicker at maths.
Debbie

"toypup" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:57:07 -0400, Stephanie wrote:

This is a child in your son's class? What is your role? Are you teaching
the
class that your son is in?

He was in DS's class last year. I tutored him in class last year and I'm
tutoring him at my home this year.


Sorry, I got that later. I don't see any advice to add that others have not
stated. Best of luck.

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:27:44 GMT, Welches wrote:

You sound as though you're really kind to him. Good luck.
Is his maths better? At one stage they used to assume dyslexic if the
English ability was considerably worse than maths, I believe. He may still
struggle with it written though, so you may need to try oral maths.
If he's poor on both then he may well be low ability/learning disability. If
he's much weaker on the English then you could bring up the suggestion of
dyslexic to him mum, emphasisiing that he's much quicker at maths.
Debbie

We were working on addition yesterday. He can do straight addition fine.
When we do fill in the blank ( __ + 5 = 10), he puts all sorts of numbers
in. This is something the class is already finished learning, so he is
very behind.

"toypup" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:27:44 GMT, Welches wrote:

You sound as though you're really kind to him. Good luck.
Is his maths better? At one stage they used to assume dyslexic if the
English ability was considerably worse than maths, I believe. He may
still
struggle with it written though, so you may need to try oral maths.
If he's poor on both then he may well be low ability/learning disability.
If
he's much weaker on the English then you could bring up the suggestion of
dyslexic to him mum, emphasisiing that he's much quicker at maths.
Debbie

We were working on addition yesterday. He can do straight addition fine.
When we do fill in the blank ( __ + 5 = 10), he puts all sorts of numbers
in. This is something the class is already finished learning, so he is
very behind.

I was doing fill in the blank with #1 a few weeks ago. I discovered that she
was often guessing and then checking rather than working it out.
I then wrote it for her as x+5=10 and showed her change the sign, change the
sign and she immediately did the whole page in about 2 minutes, and went
onto more complicated algebra without any problem.
I'm not suggesting that you try that with him as he seems to have trouble
with letters. Maybe a different approach would help, like showing him the
triple equations (5+7=12, 12-7=5, 12-5=7) or have you different coloured
bricks that he can put 5 of one colour in the pot then add another colour
until he's got 10 and see how many of the second colour there are.

If he's slow on the maths too then that might imply more learning disabled
than dyslexic, although by the sound of it he's further behind on the
English (I'm not a teacher so I could be wrong) so he might be dyslexic
anyway.

Poor little one. I'm glad you're giving him some help, but it sounds like he
could do with more support in school too.
Debbie

In article , Welches says...


"toypup" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:27:44 GMT, Welches wrote:

You sound as though you're really kind to him. Good luck.
Is his maths better? At one stage they used to assume dyslexic if the
English ability was considerably worse than maths, I believe. He may
still
struggle with it written though, so you may need to try oral maths.
If he's poor on both then he may well be low ability/learning disability.
If
he's much weaker on the English then you could bring up the suggestion of
dyslexic to him mum, emphasisiing that he's much quicker at maths.
Debbie

We were working on addition yesterday. He can do straight addition fine.
When we do fill in the blank ( __ + 5 = 10), he puts all sorts of numbers
in. This is something the class is already finished learning, so he is
very behind.

I was doing fill in the blank with #1 a few weeks ago. I discovered that she
was often guessing and then checking rather than working it out.
I then wrote it for her as x+5=10 and showed her change the sign, change the
sign and she immediately did the whole page in about 2 minutes, and went
onto more complicated algebra without any problem.

What's "change the sign, change the sign"?

I'm not suggesting that you try that with him as he seems to have trouble
with letters. Maybe a different approach would help, like showing him the
triple equations (5+7=12, 12-7=5, 12-5=7) or have you different coloured
bricks that he can put 5 of one colour in the pot then add another colour
until he's got 10 and see how many of the second colour there are.

How about solving the equation analytically, subtracting 5 from both sides?



If he's slow on the maths too then that might imply more learning disabled
than dyslexic, although by the sound of it he's further behind on the
English (I'm not a teacher so I could be wrong) so he might be dyslexic
anyway.

Maybe the math is being presented badly.

Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Welches says...


"toypup" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:27:44 GMT, Welches wrote:

You sound as though you're really kind to him. Good luck.
Is his maths better? At one stage they used to assume dyslexic if the
English ability was considerably worse than maths, I believe. He may
still
struggle with it written though, so you may need to try oral maths.
If he's poor on both then he may well be low ability/learning
disability.
If
he's much weaker on the English then you could bring up the suggestion
of
dyslexic to him mum, emphasisiing that he's much quicker at maths.
Debbie

We were working on addition yesterday. He can do straight addition
fine.
When we do fill in the blank ( __ + 5 = 10), he puts all sorts of
numbers
in. This is something the class is already finished learning, so he is
very behind.

I was doing fill in the blank with #1 a few weeks ago. I discovered that
she
was often guessing and then checking rather than working it out.
I then wrote it for her as x+5=10 and showed her change the sign, change
the
sign and she immediately did the whole page in about 2 minutes, and went
onto more complicated algebra without any problem.

What's "change the sign, change the sign"?

Sorry "change the sIDE" change the sign." I didn't mean propose it as such,
but showing a different way of doing it. Maybe you can tell I only had 3hrs
sleep last night with a poorly baby :-)

I'm not suggesting that you try that with him as he seems to have trouble
with letters. Maybe a different approach would help, like showing him the
triple equations (5+7=12, 12-7=5, 12-5=7) or have you different coloured
bricks that he can put 5 of one colour in the pot then add another colour
until he's got 10 and see how many of the second colour there are.

How about solving the equation analytically, subtracting 5 from both
sides?

That's basically what I mean by "change the side, change the sign" just put
a different way.


If he's slow on the maths too then that might imply more learning disabled
than dyslexic, although by the sound of it he's further behind on the
English (I'm not a teacher so I could be wrong) so he might be dyslexic
anyway.

Maybe the math is being presented badly.
Yes, but according to Toypup he's behind the rest of the class on the maths
too, and they're subject to the same presentation. It could mean that a
child who has difficulty understanding slips further behind, but more likely
the whole class is behind what you would expect.

Debbie (Who has two poorly children and two birthday parties coming this
weekend, so maybe you can forgive her for not being too clear)

In article , Welches says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Welches says...


"toypup" wrote in message
t...
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:27:44 GMT, Welches wrote:

You sound as though you're really kind to him. Good luck.
Is his maths better? At one stage they used to assume dyslexic if the
English ability was considerably worse than maths, I believe. He may
still
struggle with it written though, so you may need to try oral maths.
If he's poor on both then he may well be low ability/learning
disability.
If
he's much weaker on the English then you could bring up the suggestion
of
dyslexic to him mum, emphasisiing that he's much quicker at maths.
Debbie

We were working on addition yesterday. He can do straight addition
fine.
When we do fill in the blank ( __ + 5 = 10), he puts all sorts of
numbers
in. This is something the class is already finished learning, so he is
very behind.

I was doing fill in the blank with #1 a few weeks ago. I discovered that
she
was often guessing and then checking rather than working it out.
I then wrote it for her as x+5=10 and showed her change the sign, change
the
sign and she immediately did the whole page in about 2 minutes, and went
onto more complicated algebra without any problem.

What's "change the sign, change the sign"?

Sorry "change the sIDE" change the sign." I didn't mean propose it as such,
but showing a different way of doing it. Maybe you can tell I only had 3hrs
sleep last night with a poorly baby :-)

I'm not suggesting that you try that with him as he seems to have trouble
with letters. Maybe a different approach would help, like showing him the
triple equations (5+7=12, 12-7=5, 12-5=7) or have you different coloured
bricks that he can put 5 of one colour in the pot then add another colour
until he's got 10 and see how many of the second colour there are.

How about solving the equation analytically, subtracting 5 from both
sides?

That's basically what I mean by "change the side, change the sign" just put
a different way.


If he's slow on the maths too then that might imply more learning disabled
than dyslexic, although by the sound of it he's further behind on the
English (I'm not a teacher so I could be wrong) so he might be dyslexic
anyway.

Maybe the math is being presented badly.
Yes, but according to Toypup he's behind the rest of the class on the maths
too, and they're subject to the same presentation. It could mean that a
child who has difficulty understanding slips further behind, but more likely
the whole class is behind what you would expect.

But, from a PhD in Engineering who got a "D" in high school algebra, I'll tell
you that this is just the sort of thing that made me *not* understand algebra
until I took college algebra-level physics.

"Change the side, change the sign" of course does solve the equation, but it's
this thing where kids are taught this little trick for this kind of equaion,
that little trick for that kind of equation, and they are given NO CLUE as to
what they're really doing! And, at least to kids like me, a bucket of little
tricks is something that the brain pretty much chucks out the window, since
there are no basic concepts to really grasp and hold onto. And I'm talking
application - it doesn't do to show triplets for concept, the proceed to
teaching all these little tricks. (Refer our discussion some time ago about
various tricks for various ratios.)

Teach the *equivalency* and teach how to look at the equation considering how to
rearrange maintaining that. The only thing that really needs to be approached
with a trick would be quadratic equations, and that only after having presented
the derivation.


Debbie (Who has two poorly children and two birthday parties coming this
weekend, so maybe you can forgive her for not being too clear)


Hope they feel better, and if it's not your b-day parties, maybe skip one or
both

Banty

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 10:36:24 GMT, Welches wrote:

have you different coloured
bricks that he can put 5 of one colour in the pot then add another colour
until he's got 10 and see how many of the second colour there are.

Maybe that will work. Now, I need to go find two different colored
somethings.

On Oct 30, 12:32 am, toypup wrote:
There is a child in DS's first grade class who is a bit behind. His mother
has always contended that it was because she didn't send him to preschool.

She DID him to preschool two days a week beginning January of his
kindergarten year, which gives him about half a year of part-time preschool
before school started. It's not as much preschool as other kids have had
and he was the youngest child in the class, only 4 1/2 at the start of the
school year.

I've always thought he was behind because of the lack of experience in
school and the fact that he was 4 1/2 in a class of many redshirted kids,
the oldest being nearly two years older than he.

I thought he just wasn't ready to learn the alphabet. He had such
difficulty learning the letters and numbers and even just differentiating
them. I remember teaching him separately from the class in school. I'd
show him flash cards, just a few at a time. I'd show him three cards,
which he'd miss. As I showed him, I'd tell him the answer. I'd go through
maybe only three cards over and over and he just couldn't remember them.

This child has made progress. He is the hardest worker I've ever seen. I
have such respect for him. However, he still is having difficulty.

The thing is, I'm beginning to suspect he is having more trouble than just
being the youngest in class and lacking in school experience.

1) His mother said he never had any interest in letters like other
children. He has great difficulty reading anything other than sight words
that he struggled very hard to learn. When we get to new words, he cannot
or will not sound them out. If he guesses, it is completely wrong. He
does not learn new sight words easily. If I tell him what a word is on one
page, he does not recognize it on the next page. He is exhausted when we
are done reading and he cannot remember what he read.

2) He does not write normally. All his letters are formed incorrectly.
Since it was such a struggle to get him to learn the alphabet, I wonder if
they just accepted anything looking close to the proper letter and just not
corrected him or if he just can't get it.


This may be dysgraphia which some dyslexics have.

3) He has very immature speech. He sounds like DD, who's 3 yo. The r's
sound like w's, etc. His mother thinks it's because they speak another
language at home. I know lots of bilingual kids and they are not like
that. They may have accents, not immature speech.


This may or may not be a sign.

4) He can memorize the memory challenges only with great difficulty. I
worked with him to memorize one which DS (4 months older than this child)
memorized with just a few repetitions. We went over the title, author and
the first two lines over and over. He could not get it despite going over
them over and over. I could tell he was concentrating very hard and was
exhausted. We had to stop.

5) He has difficulty following instructions. During a spelling test, he'd
get the word wrong, I told him how to spell it at a speed I'm used to
telling DS. He did not get it. I told him more slowly. He kept mixing up
the letters, skipping letters, etc. He can't hear what I say and remember
it. I have to tell him one letter, wait for him to write it, then go to
the next letter.

My guess is this child is dyslexic. I have absolutely no training in this
area, it's just my hunch. I wonder if anyone here knows about dyslexia.
If it's not dyslexia, does anyone have a guess as to what it is? I really
want to help this child.


I would mention your observations to the teacher so that s/he can
observe him more closely. Hopefully your school is proactive and the
teacher can then takes steps to have the child evaluated. The earlier
the child is evaluated and receives intervention the better.

This child doesn't belong in the class that he's in, because it proceeds
too rapidly. His mother wants her children on this track knowing that they
struggle because it is perceived as the best track. It is not the best
track for her children because they are struggling far too much, but that
is an opinion I keep to myself.


It just may be that the child is simply not as developmentally
advanced as the other students. You mentioned that so many other
students (especially boys) are red-shirted - so it's likely he is not
able to keep up with the older children.

I don't want to offend the mom in any way by suggesting her child has a
problem. At the very least, I believe he has some sort of learning
disability, but I doubt she'd take to that suggestion kindly. She believes
labeling them as English learners puts them on the wrong track, so she lied
about their exposure to English and said this child speaks only English at
home. I don't think she'd want her children labeled with a disability and
tracked into a slower curriculum. Any suggestions there?

I think my daughter is very mildly dyslexic. She wasn't a fluent
reader until well into the first grade - she resisted reading a LOT
although she was introduced to phonics through her Montessori school
when she was 3. Nonetheless, we weren't really that worried because we
realized that "all children develop differently" - we heard that a
lot. To get around the resistance to reading, we used Books on Tape/
MP3/CD. DD would listen to books that other children read. Instead
of pushing her further away from reading, it seemed to lead her to the
books she heard on her MP3 player.

FWIW, DD was (still is) a very articulate toddler and preschooler. Her
spoken vocabulary at 3 was a bit frightening. Even now at 10 when I
think - oh, all the other children talk like her - adults constantly
comment on how well spoken she is. But some signs we saw we

she would misspell a word several different ways even though the
correct spelling was at the top of the page

she couldn't connect the written letters with sounds ("what does 'sp'
say?" "what does 'str' say?" were torturous questions for her)

sight words would simply stump her - she couldn't figure out how to
pronounce 'the' or 'she'

When DD's spelling remained virtually unchanged between kindergarten
and 2nd grade we had her evaluated through a private school. Because
her reading was (barely) on grade-level, they would not say she was
dyslexic but they did say she would benefit from Wilson Language
tutoring (which teaches dyslexics how to read and spell). While her
reading has really taken off as a result of the tutoring, her spelling
is still problematic. I can read her writing because her spelling is
logical, following spelling rules - she just doesn't follow the right
rules for the right words. ("Always" becomes "alwase")

I don't know if the child is dyslexic. He may be; he may not be.
There are so many other learning disabilities out there.

But keep doing what you're doing - be a very supportive positive adult
in this child's life. That is probably the best thing for the boy
whatever the issue. One of the best things for my daughter has been
her tutor. This woman is great - she has been a constant positive
force in my daughter's life (we're stretching out the tutoring
sessions so she stays in our lives).

"toypup" wrote in message
.. .
My guess is this child is dyslexic. I have absolutely no training in this
area, it's just my hunch. I wonder if anyone here knows about dyslexia.
If it's not dyslexia, does anyone have a guess as to what it is? I really
want to help this child.

This child doesn't belong in the class that he's in, because it proceeds
too rapidly. His mother wants her children on this track knowing that
they
struggle because it is perceived as the best track. It is not the best
track for her children because they are struggling far too much, but that
is an opinion I keep to myself.

I don't want to offend the mom in any way by suggesting her child has a
problem. At the very least, I believe he has some sort of learning
disability, but I doubt she'd take to that suggestion kindly. She
believes
labeling them as English learners puts them on the wrong track, so she
lied
about their exposure to English and said this child speaks only English at
home. I don't think she'd want her children labeled with a disability and
tracked into a slower curriculum. Any suggestions there?


My son is a whole lot like that. He was diagnosed with ADHD- inattentive
and we are having evaluations done for Central Auditory Processing Delay and
Dyslexia. We don't have any results yet. I wish I'd have done something at
4.5yo rather then waiting - thinking he'd grow out of it though


--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06