Messing with kids' heads in the name of science

At age 1.5 or so, DS participated in a study at the local
university about child development. Every few years I
get a call for him to participate in another study. I turned
down the offer this time and I wondered, just out of
curiosity, what other parents would have done.

He's 7 now. The experiment, as explained to me, was
to study what children his age would believe. They
had a contraption set up to look like a machine, and
they planned to put a stuffed animal in one side and
take a live animal out of the other, and then see if the
children believed that the stuffed animal had been
brought to life.

My DS is very trusting and sensitive. His father is a
big tease, so we've been working on his skepticism
for a long time, but he seems to take things said to
him at face value. For example when he was trying
to use a butter knife to scrape a sticker off of the
refrigerator, DH yelled, "What are you doing?! You're
going to scratch up the refrigerator! Use your head!"
And so DS (maybe 5 at the time) dutifully put away
the knife and tried to scrape the sticker off with his
head.

He also believes everything his friends tell him they've
done, even if its wildly fantastic. And so I have no
doubt that he'd be fooled by the "machine". And
when he found out he'd been tricked, he'd be really
upset. He'd be extremely embarrassed, and might
well feel betrayed. I'm sure he'd feel like he'd been
the butt of a joke.

And so that's why I turned them down. Which started
me wondering if they are going to get a skewed sample
because the parents of more skeptical kids are less
likely to say no.

So, do you think your kids would have believed? And
would you have let them participate?

Just curious...

Bizby

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

At age 1.5 or so, DS participated in a study at the local
university about child development. Every few years I
get a call for him to participate in another study. I turned
down the offer this time and I wondered, just out of
curiosity, what other parents would have done.

He's 7 now. The experiment, as explained to me, was
to study what children his age would believe. They
had a contraption set up to look like a machine, and
they planned to put a stuffed animal in one side and
take a live animal out of the other, and then see if the
children believed that the stuffed animal had been
brought to life.

My DS is very trusting and sensitive. His father is a
big tease, so we've been working on his skepticism
for a long time, but he seems to take things said to
him at face value. For example when he was trying
to use a butter knife to scrape a sticker off of the
refrigerator, DH yelled, "What are you doing?! You're
going to scratch up the refrigerator! Use your head!"
And so DS (maybe 5 at the time) dutifully put away
the knife and tried to scrape the sticker off with his
head.

He also believes everything his friends tell him they've
done, even if its wildly fantastic. And so I have no
doubt that he'd be fooled by the "machine". And
when he found out he'd been tricked, he'd be really
upset. He'd be extremely embarrassed, and might
well feel betrayed. I'm sure he'd feel like he'd been
the butt of a joke.

And so that's why I turned them down. Which started
me wondering if they are going to get a skewed sample
because the parents of more skeptical kids are less
likely to say no.

So, do you think your kids would have believed? And
would you have let them participate?

Just curious...

Bizby


I would have been just plain skeptical and weirded out by the unknown. I
would have passed.

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

At age 1.5 or so, DS participated in a study at the local
university about child development. Every few years I
get a call for him to participate in another study. I turned
down the offer this time and I wondered, just out of
curiosity, what other parents would have done.

He's 7 now. The experiment, as explained to me, was
to study what children his age would believe. They
had a contraption set up to look like a machine, and
they planned to put a stuffed animal in one side and
take a live animal out of the other, and then see if the
children believed that the stuffed animal had been
brought to life.

My DS is very trusting and sensitive. His father is a
big tease, so we've been working on his skepticism
for a long time, but he seems to take things said to
him at face value. For example when he was trying
to use a butter knife to scrape a sticker off of the
refrigerator, DH yelled, "What are you doing?! You're
going to scratch up the refrigerator! Use your head!"
And so DS (maybe 5 at the time) dutifully put away
the knife and tried to scrape the sticker off with his
head.

I'm sorry, but that made me laugh! What did your DH say when he did that?



He also believes everything his friends tell him they've
done, even if its wildly fantastic.

Now *that* would worry me. I'd be afraid he would be tricked into doing bad
or harmful things by meaner kids or , God forbid, an adult.


And so I have no
doubt that he'd be fooled by the "machine". And
when he found out he'd been tricked, he'd be really
upset. He'd be extremely embarrassed, and might
well feel betrayed. I'm sure he'd feel like he'd been
the butt of a joke.

I would hope the researchers would be more considerate than that. They'd
probably wouldn't taunt him for believing.



And so that's why I turned them down. Which started
me wondering if they are going to get a skewed sample
because the parents of more skeptical kids are less
likely to say no.

So, do you think your kids would have believed? And
would you have let them participate?


Sure, I'd let them participate. My DS3, who's will be 8 next month,
definitely would not believe that a stuffed toy turned into an animal! I'm a
total skeptic, however, and I rarely believe anything at first glance, and
he's just like me, and having two older brothers made him grow up a bit
faster. I can't even think back to a time where he would have believed that
such a thing would happen.
I think these longitudinal studies are fascinating, and I wouldn't want to
mess up the research.Think of the poor grad students! ;-)

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

At age 1.5 or so, DS participated in a study at the local
university about child development. Every few years I
get a call for him to participate in another study. I turned
down the offer this time and I wondered, just out of
curiosity, what other parents would have done.

He's 7 now. The experiment, as explained to me, was
to study what children his age would believe. They
had a contraption set up to look like a machine, and
they planned to put a stuffed animal in one side and
take a live animal out of the other, and then see if the
children believed that the stuffed animal had been
brought to life.

....

Which started
me wondering if they are going to get a skewed sample
because the parents of more skeptical kids are less
likely to say no.

So, do you think your kids would have believed?

Well no, my kids would not have believed. But to show they come by their
skepticism honestly, I'd have to say I don't believe the study they claimed
to be doing is the study they are really doing. You are right, parents who
have very naive, trusting children often have parents who are rightly very
protective of them. These children are so trusting because they were
raising in a very nurturing environment, and why would those who provided
such a nurturing environment suddenly let their child be hoodwinked for
"science". Since this university presumably has some background on your
family and your child I think it is more likely to see if they could
hoodwink you into mildly mentally torturing your child for "Science". Turns
out they found they can't, which I suspect was what their hypothesis
predicted.

"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message
et...

But to show they come by their
skepticism honestly, I'd have to say I don't believe the study they
claimed
to be doing is the study they are really doing. You are right, parents
who
have very naive, trusting children often have parents who are rightly very
protective of them. These children are so trusting because they were
raising in a very nurturing environment, and why would those who provided
such a nurturing environment suddenly let their child be hoodwinked for
"science". Since this university presumably has some background on your
family and your child I think it is more likely to see if they could
hoodwink you into mildly mentally torturing your child for "Science".
Turns
out they found they can't, which I suspect was what their hypothesis
predicted.

I would think that wouldn't be allowed under informed consent rules, which
have to be followed in all psychological research :
http://www.socialpsychology.org/consent.htm#apa
http://www.virginia.edu/psychology/ppool/under18.pdf
The second document states that the subject may be misled (and later
debriefed), in Bizby's case, the child is the subject - not her.

bizby40 wrote:

And so that's why I turned them down. Which started
me wondering if they are going to get a skewed sample
because the parents of more skeptical kids are less
likely to say no.

So, do you think your kids would have believed? And
would you have let them participate?

To be honest, I'm not sure that my three year old would believe this,
but we do a lot of teasing in our house about very much this kind of
thing (what's alive, what's real, and so on) so he's well-primed to be
skeptical. I'd let him participate because I don't think he'd be
bothered. However, I once watched a college-age subject burst into
tears at the end of an experiment when it became clear she'd been
mildly deceived during the course of it and that the other subjects
involved had all figured out the 'deception' and she hadn't, so I
completely believe some kids might react this way.

I think you raise a valid point about their research, and you might
want to call them back and point out that they may be getting a
self-selected sample of skeptical kids. My suggestion to them would be
to ask your question of parents who say no - do you think your child
would fall for the 'machine'? And if many more parents who decline say
that they think their kids would fall for it, that would be valuable
for them to know. Maybe they can figure out a way to study the issue
without leaving vulnerable kids open to feeling bad.

Beth

"tracert" wrote in message news5Paf.2536$An6.10@trnddc08...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...
refrigerator, DH yelled, "What are you doing?! You're
going to scratch up the refrigerator! Use your head!"
And so DS (maybe 5 at the time) dutifully put away
the knife and tried to scrape the sticker off with his
head.

I'm sorry, but that made me laugh! What did your DH say when he did that?

He burst out laughing of course. And DS will laugh about it
too. He's not that sensitive with DH and I, I guess because
he knows we'd never hurt him. But he can be very sensitive
with his sister, or kids at his school that he doesn't know well.

He also believes everything his friends tell him they've
done, even if its wildly fantastic.

Now *that* would worry me. I'd be afraid he would be tricked into doing
bad or harmful things by meaner kids or , God forbid, an adult.

Hmm... Well, that hasn't come up yet. I'm not sure I've
portrayed him correctly. If a friend tells him they've
jumped 1000 times on the pogo stick without stopping,
he'll believe them without question. And this one friend
we call "the scientist" because he's always spouting off
science facts. Most of them appear to be correct, but
I was there one time when he tried to estimate something
large and unknowable, like the number of trees on his
property. He threw out a few numbers until he hit on
one that sounded like the right order of magnitude to
him. *I* could tell that it was just a guess, and I don't
think he was trying to trick anyone, but DS would just
hear a number and take it as gospel.

That said, I'm not sure if that would translate into causing
him to do something he doesn't want to do. And I really
think he'd be skeptical if someone told him something
which directly contradicted what we had told him. If
the experiment claimed to be changing the stuffed
animal by magic I don't think he'd believe it, because he
knows only God can do real magic. But science is a
different matter. Science is wondrous and can do
almost anything.

And so I have no
doubt that he'd be fooled by the "machine". And
when he found out he'd been tricked, he'd be really
upset. He'd be extremely embarrassed, and might
well feel betrayed. I'm sure he'd feel like he'd been
the butt of a joke.

I would hope the researchers would be more considerate than that. They'd
probably wouldn't taunt him for believing.

They wouldn't have to. But we also couldn't leave him
to believe that the animal had really come to life. Maybe
they're good at leading the kids to figure it out on their
own and save face, but it's a bunch of grad students, so
I don't trust that they'd think that far ahead.

And so that's why I turned them down. Which started
me wondering if they are going to get a skewed sample
because the parents of more skeptical kids are less
likely to say no.

So, do you think your kids would have believed? And
would you have let them participate?


Sure, I'd let them participate. My DS3, who's will be 8 next month,
definitely would not believe that a stuffed toy turned into an animal! I'm
a total skeptic, however, and I rarely believe anything at first glance,
and he's just like me, and having two older brothers made him grow up a
bit faster. I can't even think back to a time where he would have believed
that such a thing would happen.
I think these longitudinal studies are fascinating, and I wouldn't want to
mess up the research.Think of the poor grad students! ;-)

lol -- This is kind of my point though. You don't think your child
would believe, and you'd have no problem with the study. I do
wonder if the study will end up skewed that way.

Bizby

"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message
et...

Well no, my kids would not have believed. But to show they come by their
skepticism honestly, I'd have to say I don't believe the study they
claimed
to be doing is the study they are really doing.

I tend to be a skeptic myself. I was in one of these studies
when I was in college. They told us to take a test. Then
they told our group that we were the worst group and all
the others had done better. Then we were given the chance
to change our answers. Yeah, right. I knew right then that
all groups had been told the same thing.

According to the debriefing, they were trying to see whether
there was more of a natural tendancy to flip-flop or to dig
in when you found out you'd done something wrong. If
the other participants were anything like me, their test
results were meaningless.

You are right, parents who
have very naive, trusting children often have parents who are rightly very
protective of them. These children are so trusting because they were
raising in a very nurturing environment, and why would those who provided
such a nurturing environment suddenly let their child be hoodwinked for
"science". Since this university presumably has some background on your
family and your child I think it is more likely to see if they could
hoodwink you into mildly mentally torturing your child for "Science".
Turns
out they found they can't, which I suspect was what their hypothesis
predicted.

I don't think so. There weren't enough questions. She asked if he'd
like to participate, I asked her to describe the study. She gave a
brief explanation and hastened to assure me that they were dealing
with very small animals. I declined. She said "Thank you" and hung
up.

Bizby

Hi --

I'd probably have let him participate *** on the condition that the
researchers show him how the "magic trick" worked once the study was
done. Let him see just what they did and how they got him to believe
it, and then let him try to trick YOU. Use it as a lesson in not
believing everything that you see ...

My two cents,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"bizby40" wrote in message
At age 1.5 or so, DS participated in a study at the local
university about child development. Every few years I
get a call for him to participate in another study. I turned
down the offer this time and I wondered, just out of
curiosity, what other parents would have done.

I'm not sure if I would participate or not, but my 8-year-old would not
believe that the stuffed animal was brought to life. I think with these
kinds of studies, you just have to know your child and go from there. Since
my daughter had a liver transplant and was on blood pressure medication,
they asked me if I would consent to a study for the medication she was on.
It entailed weekly trips (one hour each way) to the hospital for monitoring
and weekly blood draws. I didn't participate because I didn't want my
daughter having more than she already had blood draws, but I did feel a
little bad because I know how important testing and studying is, but at the
same time I didn't want my daughter to go through it.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)