Kids should work !!!

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote:

By the time kids get to juvenile halls they have already been punished
by parents and others and it has not worked. So we certainly need
to do something different.

So why punish them more? Let's get rid of juvenile hall! Let's compare
your alternatives under the same conditions and see what work best.

It is not likely that society will choose this because it means they
would have to provide real one on one counselling for each of these
children and that costs money.

It would be more effective to teach the parents to use positive
methods when the child is much younger. And it is much more
effective too, if a child has parents who care about him and don't
abuse him. Children learn what they live. If you treat a child with
punishment and harsh discipline as a toddler, expect to have this
returned 7 fold when he is a teenager.

You cannot make up for all the abuses that these kids have suffered
by more punishment, but I see no hope that society will change and
try other methods. If you can do away with them and provide the
people to actually help these kids, then I would be perfectly happy
to try it.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote:

If punishment worked to get people to be self-disciplined, we would
not need police because they already would have learned right from
wrong and would be doing what is right. But punishment doesn't work,
and in fact it creates people whose ethical level is so low that they
will do what they wish without regard to whether it is right or wrong.
They will figure if they don't get caught, then doing the *crime* is
fine.

It's not a either/or dichotomy! It is about striking a balance and
finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of
reward and punishment that is bad.

No, it's the entire concept that is bad.

When you use external rewards and punishments, you demotivate
the child and make him dependent on the externals. I have recently
been talking to an adult in another forum who exemplifies this very
well. He does some good things, but only if someone else recognizes
his good work. He doesn't have any inner sense that makes him feel
good when he does something good, but has to be thanked and in
proportion to what he thinks is due. By the same token, the only
thing that keeps him from crimes is fear of punishment. So he has
no inner compass that says that the crime itself is wrong, but he has
enough fear of getting caught that he will not commit the crime. This
is the overall result of not teaching right and wrong in the first
place and of relying on external discipline instead of helping
children find a moral compass.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On 16 Nov 2003 17:13:12 -0800, (Kane)
wrote:

It's not a either/or dichotomy!

Of course not. Where did you get the idea she was presenting such a
narrow option?

It is about striking a balance and
finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of
reward and punishment that is bad.

It is your inability to understand that a repertoire of non-punitive
parenting methods is FAR more expansive and extensive than that
usually used by punishment oriented parenting and parents.

In other words, it is much more likely that the diversity between
children is likely to be ignored or go undiscovered by a spanker, than
by a non-punitive parent.

The non-punitive parent NEVER has the quick and brutal solution of a
CP action to fall back on so they must learn, and they must learn
about the differences between their children and between any child an
another.

Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially the
same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents see.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On 16 Nov 2003 19:27:45 -0800, (Greg Hanson)
wrote:

I am amazed that anti-spankers are also against
use of work as punishment.

You would be. Work is something YOU seem to avoid. So, where you
punished with work as a child?

LaVonne made comments about certain work
being EXPECTED, as in an obligation, but
I doubt her veracity in that statement.

Really? Then you'd likely as wrong as you usually are.

I set it up with my own kids that they practically ran over me to help
around the place. Me and Tom Sawyer had a little scam you see. I would
catch them watching me doing something like the laundry, or trimming
the hedge, or mowing the lawn, or waxing the kitchen floor, and out of
my mouth would come: "I'm sorry honey, you just aren't old enough to
do this yet."

Notice the "yet?" Sneaky old rascal, eh?

My daughter practicly mugged me to get to do the laundry. Then my son
a few years later. And at that I wouldn't let them do other people's
laundry...my children were taught NOT to be the servants of others.

If they argue against spanking AND they
argue against therapeutic labor assignment also,
I think they have revealed some of their
nonsensical side.

Okay, just what "some of their nonsensical side" have they revealed?

Maybe that they think work should be something sought out with
eagerness and pleasure?

Golly gee, imagine that.

Geez, what a bunch of cry babies they would
make this world if they could!

Really? How is that all four of the kids my wife and I raised
separately, with very much the same methods (we are friends for years
and years when our kids were small...my kids babysat hers, and after
my first wife died...well, you know...we kinda liked each other...only
took us 25 years too hook up) have turned out not only to be hard
workers who enjoy their work but in high demand by their bosses?

My son works in the heavy building construction industry and during
layoffs he an a couple of other guys are all that kept to keep the
place running until the next contract. My daughter has had to take her
time finishing her degree what with the demands of her employers that
seem to be unable to do without her advanced computer skills, and my
step daughters have jobs in one of the tightest labor markets in
recent years...one of them so in demand that at the ripe old age of 24
the company wants to send her to school full time while paying her
full salary.

Yeah, that all happened because my wife and I used work as punishment
as they were growing up...yeah sure.

Waah! I don't Wanna! Waah!

Yes we know. We can tell just by reading about what you are doing as
you yourself relate it in this ng.

And Lord of the Flies..

Well, though it was fiction, there was a very telling piece in it.
These were all english schoolboys. The english school system, private
or public (and read that backwards to our meaning when speaking of
schools) is notorious for the use of the rod. Thrashings of even the
youngest boys is common.

Now impress that over the plot and see what you get.

Remember the decent into savagry. The gentlest boys, those least
abused by adults, held out the longest. The bullies, those no doubt
bullied by people like you, were the ones that became so dangerous to
the other boys.

So yes, you ARE a find example of what it takes to create savages out
of innocent children.

In fact I think you are so good at it I have high hopes for the little
girl to have taken lesson and will act it out on you one day.

Got that Bugout bag ready by the door?

Sure hope so. Wouldn't want your already taken advantage of "fiance"
to have to also clean up buckets of blood spouting from the site of
your missing genitalia.

Best wishes,

Kane

And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them
for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just
common-sense.

Is it necessary for the parent to administer punishment ?
To help my son take responsibility for his own actions I believe in letting
him suffer the natural consequences.
I don't have to punish him. If what he is doing is wrong I explain to him
why. If he does it anyway then he will suffer the consequences.

Naturally one must avoid them actually seriously hurting themselves, but I
want my son to understand why, not to blindly obey because he fears
retribution.

The result is that he behaves well because he believes it is the right way
to behave and develops self discipline.

Are we washing socks today?

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:22:21 -0800, Doan wrote:

You do have to make the effort to be consistent
and to actually listen to your child, but it works and its worth it.
Sure kids will still *misbehave* some. After all they are learning
and they are not going to be perfect either, but for the most part
children who are listened to and disciplined positively act up much
less than children who have been punished.

For most part - not all. Every child is different. The be effective,
you have to know the child. There is no one size fit all.

Positive discipline is not one size. It is something you modify
to fit the child and your family, but the *attitude* you take toward
the child is that he is trying to be good and learning and you
work with that.

It is if you are trying to exclude others. Remember, if there is no
negative then there is no positive. It is the balance of yin and yang
and you can never exclude one from the other.

Doan

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:24:04 -0800, Doan wrote:

And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them
for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just
common-sense.

They can learn that without being rewarded or punished by their
parents. Do you really think that children are so stupid that they
cannot see that society is punishment and reward oriented even
if you don't use those techniques?

The goals of parenting is to prepare children for the society that
they live in. Do you think that parents WORLDWIDE are "so stupid"
that they don't know what is best for their kids??? And why do
you think that EVERY society is punishment/reward oriented? If
punishmnet and reward don't work as you claimed, why do they
existed in every cultures?

Doan

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote:

By the time kids get to juvenile halls they have already been punished
by parents and others and it has not worked. So we certainly need
to do something different.

So why punish them more? Let's get rid of juvenile hall! Let's compare
your alternatives under the same conditions and see what work best.

It is not likely that society will choose this because it means they
would have to provide real one on one counselling for each of these
children and that costs money.

And you think that locking them up is cheaper???

It would be more effective to teach the parents to use positive
methods when the child is much younger. And it is much more
effective too, if a child has parents who care about him and don't
abuse him. Children learn what they live. If you treat a child with
punishment and harsh discipline as a toddler, expect to have this
returned 7 fold when he is a teenager.

If this is true as you claimed why is the crime rate so in the 50's?
Why is it so low in Singapore?

You cannot make up for all the abuses that these kids have suffered
by more punishment, but I see no hope that society will change and
try other methods. If you can do away with them and provide the
people to actually help these kids, then I would be perfectly happy
to try it.

We are not talking about abuse! We are talking about the discipline
that normal people like you and I grew up with. I am a pragmatic
person. You claimed that punishment/reward don't work, let's hear
your alternatives.

Doan

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote:

If punishment worked to get people to be self-disciplined, we would
not need police because they already would have learned right from
wrong and would be doing what is right. But punishment doesn't work,
and in fact it creates people whose ethical level is so low that they
will do what they wish without regard to whether it is right or wrong.
They will figure if they don't get caught, then doing the *crime* is
fine.

It's not a either/or dichotomy! It is about striking a balance and
finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of
reward and punishment that is bad.

No, it's the entire concept that is bad.

No proof of that! In fact, reality has shown that to be the most
effective! It is human nature!

When you use external rewards and punishments, you demotivate
the child and make him dependent on the externals.

Only if you overuse reward and punishment; when properly used, it
is very effective. In fact, that is how our society function.
For god's sake, saying yes and no are externals!

I have recently
been talking to an adult in another forum who exemplifies this very
well. He does some good things, but only if someone else recognizes
his good work. He doesn't have any inner sense that makes him feel
good when he does something good, but has to be thanked and in
proportion to what he thinks is due. By the same token, the only
thing that keeps him from crimes is fear of punishment. So he has
no inner compass that says that the crime itself is wrong, but he has
enough fear of getting caught that he will not commit the crime.

But he is just one individual! You can not use him to generalize.
Most human are somewhere between the devil and a saint.

This
is the overall result of not teaching right and wrong in the first
place and of relying on external discipline instead of helping
children find a moral compass.

Again, it is not a matter of relying external discipline; it is not
a a either/or preposition. It is about striking a balance: 1) love,
2) positive to reward good behavior and 3) negative/punishment to
reduce bad behavior.

Doan