| Juveniles now face tougher laws and adult sentences

On 16 Nov 2003 15:13:00 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/7276020.htm

Much of this is due to CPS disempowering families and leaving parents
with very
few options but *experts* to deal with teen behavior problems.

Much of this is the result of abusive and neglectful parenting.
Families that do not use punitive parenting methods simply don't have
the kinds and level of problems that neglectful punitive parents have
with their children.

If CPS were not the disempowering force you claim then what would
parents do to discipline their children that would work, Cucumber?

Kane

Unfortunately, Kane, the stats do NOT confirm your pet musings.

Parents are NOT punishing children as nearly as harshly as when I was a child.

Spankings and RIGID, PUNITVE punishments are DOWN. And I agree largely with
the trend. Parents should NOT use spanking as a normal method of instructing
children in the proper way to behave.

Much of this is the result of abusive and neglectful parenting.
Families that do not use punitive parenting methods simply don't have
the kinds and level of problems that neglectful punitive parents have
with their children.

However, parents have no *bag of tricks* left when spanking is ILLEGALIZED.
(MY WORD--Spanking is still LEGAL in every state of the Union)

Reference : UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.

Holding in Ingraham v Wright

Parents who are democratic and who are fortunate enough to have a child who is
amenable to discussion and can get through with talking, time-outs, etc.

However, to cede authority over the state cadre of untrained, uncaring DYFS
workers (as in NJ), which by the way Gelles predicted that a tragedy would
ensue with this agency, was tragically borne out in October.

More and more teens are now INCARCERATED IN PRISONS doing adult time.

And they do face much tougher laws and consequences for minor infractions.

E.g., boys wrestling on a schoolyard, inadvertantly carrying a steak knife in
their trunk to school.

We are ceding authority over to *others.*

Government is SO GOOD AT THAT.

Much of what they do is worthless job creation for folks who majored in the SS.

Kane blows hard without any scholarly references other than his fantasies:



Much of this is the result of abusive and neglectful parenting.
Families that do not use punitive parenting methods simply don't have
the kinds and level of problems that neglectful punitive parents have
with their children.

Prove it. Somewhere. As it is this is just another example of your blowhard
hot air.

(Kane) wrote in message . com...
On 16 Nov 2003 15:13:00 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/7276020.htm

Much of this is due to CPS disempowering families and leaving parents
with very
few options but *experts* to deal with teen behavior problems.

Much of this is the result of abusive and neglectful parenting.
Families that do not use punitive parenting methods simply don't have
the kinds and level of problems that neglectful punitive parents have
with their children.

If CPS were not the disempowering force you claim then what would
parents do to discipline their children that would work, Cucumber?

Kane

I asked you a question. You haven't answered it. It's right up there.

I'll repeat it just so people can watch you crabwalk yet again.

In my response to your claims about CPS disempowering parents to
discipline, I said:

"If CPS were not the disempowering force you claim then what would
parents do to discipline their children that would work, Cucumber?"

So what would parents do that would be effective?

And when you are finished, you may read my reply to your bogus and
crablike response below.

On 17 Nov 2003 01:51:26 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

Unfortunately, Kane, the stats do NOT confirm your pet musings.

Please provide the stats you refer to. I'm unfamiliar with what stats
you are citing, without source. When I've read them we can discuss
this subject more intelligently.

The ones I've read say you are full of ****.

Parents are NOT punishing children as nearly as harshly as when I was
a child.

Irrelevant, and I think untrue. The levels of abuse and the kinds
delivered these day that the parent claimed were done to make the
child mind have become unbelievably ugly and cruel.

But, one would have to assume, if what you say is true, that children
are acting out more now than then, and it would be reflected in
juvenile crime data.

In fact children's behaviors are MORE criminalized now than when I was
a child (you'd gasp if you knew what we got away with with nothing
more than a little deputy finger shaking and admonision).

That means that MORE juvenile crime would be in the data NOW than
then... but, if you will check you will find that juvenile crime rates
are down, and been going down for years. They are simply
sensationalized, much to your Watermelon delight, by the media now.

The fact is reported as far back as 2000 that the adult crime rate,
violence against juveniles, has gone up...in other words, adults are
more dangerous to teens than teens are to adults. Funny about that,
eh?

From a year 2000 study:

http://www.nga.org/cda/files/000214JUVCRIME.pdf

"There is also a strong link between child abuse and neglect
and later violent offenses. While not all abused or neglected youth
become offenders, an overwhelming percentage of violent youth
come from abusive backgrounds. Any comprehensive violence
reduction strategy should also look at ways to reduce the incidence
of child abuse and neglect.

Understanding the factors that increase a youth's chance for
becoming violent is important. It is equally important, however, to
understand the factors that decrease the chances of a youth
becoming violent. Regardless of risk, most youth do not commit....."

And........

"The majority of juvenile crime
is committed by a minority of
youth. For example, the
juvenile violent crime index
for 1995 indicates that less
than on half of one percent of
juveniles were responsible for
all indexed violent crimes that
year."

And.....

"Juveniles are more than
two-and-a-half times more likely to be the victims of violent crime
than adults. While the recent decreases are encouraging, much remains
to be done."

Spankings and RIGID, PUNITVE punishments are DOWN. And I agree
largely with
the trend. Parents should NOT use spanking as a normal method of
instructing
children in the proper way to behave.

Then what IS our argument against CPS intevention that YOU claim has
reduced the capacity for parents to "discipline" (as if we didn't know
what you really mean by the use of that word) effectively?

Are you prepared to defend such posters as toto and LaVonne in their
position that parents should receive MORE training in non-punitive
parenting skills and stop punishment entirely?

If that happened, Bamboo, you agreeing with them, I'd never call you a
plant again. Might insult you for other stupidities and lies, but no
more plant names.

Deal?

Much of this is the result of abusive and neglectful parenting.
Families that do not use punitive parenting methods simply don't
have
the kinds and level of problems that neglectful punitive parents
have
with their children.

However, parents have no *bag of tricks* left when spanking is
ILLEGALIZED.
(MY WORD--Spanking is still LEGAL in every state of the Union)

You still don't know about Minnesota, do you? Two or three people
(myself one of them) in the last month have corrected you on that.
Look it up. They even sited the Minnesota law right in these very ngs.
You don't read or understand anything that counters your blind
ignorant bias, now do you, Calabash.

As for the "*bag of tricks*" comment...how could you be so ignorant.
Toto just posted a list of 12 things parents can do to positively and
non-punitively parent. It believe it was in a thread you've posted to,
the one on Kids Should Work.

http://tinyurl.com/vach

See, I provide actual access. You don't.

And her's is, comparatively, a very short list. There is much much
more available. Just a good read from a early childhood development
book, or even one of the simple charts on child development with each
marker being matched with things a parent can do and not do to help
their child goes far far beyond the repertoire of all punishers.

I note the she, a classroom teacher, has observed the same things I
have with children that are raised punitively...they then do the same
to other children and compensatory behaviors that can and often do
escalate in what will become criminal behavior if someone doesn't
intervene.

Hopefully he will remember the respect with which she has treated him
and will be better developed in conscience by it than the spankings
his father gives him are producing.

Your reference below is pointless. States have the jurisdiction here
and this will and can be challenged on those grounds.


Reference : UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.

Holding in Ingraham v Wright

Your reference above is pointless. States have the jurisdiction here
and this will and can be challenged on those grounds. It is not a
discipline decision.

If you wish it read then point to it with a clickable URL posted.
Otherwise you are just making empty claims, yet again.

Parents who are democratic and who are fortunate enough to have a
child who is
amenable to discussion and can get through with talking, time-outs,
etc.

No, I worked with parents that had the most difficult of mentally ill
children, and everything in between. They had great success, as I did
in a treatment center, with non-punitive methods.

I keep pointing out that punishment oriented folks that haven't
actually tried non-punitive methods cannot know what I'm talking
about, but I never give up, you may note.

Take Jerry Alborn for instance. He was wise enough and sensitive
enough to put his own training for parenting (how his parents parented
him, and the people around him did it) and move beyond that. His
obvious intelligence was his most powerful tool. He demanded proof,
and when he figured out how to do nonpunitive parenting...he got
proof. He recognized he had ample proof that punitive parent wasn't
producing compliant children with the human attributes he wanted in
his children.

He pointed out when he disclosed that he had been a CP using parent
that he could control his children up to a point, but that it was
slipping badly and he did NOT like the side effects.

So no, one does not need ready made compliant children. The challenges
of discipline are the parent's, not the child's.

However, to cede authority over the state cadre of untrained,
uncaring DYFS
workers (as in NJ),

Please describe how NJ CPS workers were ceded authority to tell the
people of NJ how to parent their children and in what context it
failed...cases please.

which by the way Gelles predicted that a tragedy would
ensue with this agency, was tragically borne out in October.

And his comments had zero to do with discipline methods and your
comments now are empty rantings that are off topic to the subject we
are discussing...yet another crabwalk you silly twits indulge in.

Avoidance is all you have left.

More and more teens are now INCARCERATED IN PRISONS doing adult time.

Oh? Stats please. I find that running counter to the DOJ rate figures.
Juvenile crime rates are down. And RATES are what matters, not
numbers. Numbers can just reflect population size.

I defy you to post the numbers that say otherwise. You are just
babbling the media bias you feed your squawking rants with.

And they do face much tougher laws and consequences for minor
infractions.

There is no question about that. So tell us, how is it with all that
increase in criminalization, and as you claim more and more parents
opting out of the use of CP for discipline, the juvenile crime rate is
lower today than it was ten and even fifteen years ago?

E.g., boys wrestling on a schoolyard, inadvertantly carrying a steak
knife in
their trunk to school.

I and other boys punched each other out and on occasion carried rifles
and large hunting knives openly. This has nothing in it to support
your claims. Nothing at all.

As I said, this flies in the face of your claims that failure to
discipline by punishment methods is a cause of more out of control
youth. It's the criminalization that is going up, not the juvenile
crime rate.

We are ceding authority over to *others.*

That is the choice of the people in some matters. It is NOT true in
parenting. You are mistaken or lying. Which is it?

The only people ceding authority are neglecting and abusing their
children. Others who know how to parent do no such thing.

Government is SO GOOD AT THAT.

It is not, nor does it claim to be a better parent than the natural
parent. In fact if you ask any trained caseworker they will admit
readily that the state is a lousy parent, and they might, if they are
the least politically aware, also point out that both CAPTA and ASFA
were attempts to get CPS OUT of the business of having to displace
parents.


Much of what they do is worthless job creation for folks who majored
in the SS.


Bull****. You and other ninnies here make a huge fuss that not enough
are trained as social workers now you complain because those that
majored in SS are doing the job.

Kane blows hard without any scholarly references other than his
fantasies:

That's rather odd of you to say that. I post far more source material
than you, and I don't just mention it in passing so as to avoid being
called on the data if I am wrong...as YOU DO..I reference and source
it and provide a path directly to it.

Have I not posted the Embry study, the Dr. Dobson story, access to Dr.
Gordon's work and other information?

You are a liar, Muskmelon, a simple, self serving vicious liar.

Much of this is the result of abusive and neglectful parenting.
Families that do not use punitive parenting methods simply don't
have
the kinds and level of problems that neglectful punitive parents
have
with their children.

Prove it.

Go ask in the prison system. There is ample evidence of failed
parenting in the lives of prisoners. It's abundant in treatment
centers for children, latency age, younger, and adolescents.

Somewhere. As it is this is just another example of your blowhard
hot air.

Sorry. I have no hot air. You'll just have to brave the cold weather
and go Dormant for the winter, Hollyhock. Or you can try calling on
your Dungpile to heat you.

Kane