Does "no presents" really mean that?

I had a similar problem one year: I was working very hard on
decluttering, and so when my mother asked what I wanted, I told
her a particular type of chocolates. She got me that *and* another
present.


*grin* My neice became Bat Mitzvah last fall, and, of course, got a million
presents. When Hanukkah time rolled around, she couldn't think of anything she
wanted or needed. She finally came up with a few ideas, along with 'good
chocolate.' EVERYONE in the family got her 'good chocolate.'


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

I decided to stop exchanging gifts except with very close family
members (i.e. grandparents) when I got to the point that I had more
children than anyone else.

About 10 years ago, when the number of neices and nephews began to multiply, I
suggested to my sisters/brother that we do a 'name-draw' for the adult members
of the family for Hannukah gifting. They were amenable to that (though my
parents declined; wanting to be able to give presents to all their kids...).
The first year we drew names, then every year after that we cycled through the
family by age. We still always got gifts for the neices/nephews. It was always
SOO hard to buy presents for my sibs though, since no-one ever knows what they
want (and really.... we're all adults with incomes of our own. If we really
want something, we can usually buy it, right? And if we can't afford it, we
can hardly expect someone else to buy if for us, especially during that time of
year when they're trying to buy gifts for their kids too!). Finally, last
year, my brother and his wife said that they were going to drop out of the gift
cycle. I immediately said that we would too, and my sisters agreed as well. So
now we just get presents for the kids, and our parents.
(Who are ALSO hard to buy for! Mom collects murano glass, so she's pretty easy,
but Dad is impossible....)

The kids are still pretty managable though. I have only 6 neices/nephews on my
side of the family, and only one of DH's side.


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

"Chris Smith" wrote in message
.. .
I'm still waiting for someone to give a good sound reason why this is
true. So far, it's been merely asserted. I know that's not what I
would mean, were I to write such a thing on my child's birthday
invitations. I would mean, instead, that while the guest would
otherwise have had the option to bring a gift, they are now being asked
not to bring one. Of course, David said this some time ago, and no one
answered then, but continued to repeat this thing about presuming that
gifts are normally expected. That's just wrong.

So while I agree with Miss Manners and others that gifts should not be
expected, I think it's an error in logic to conclude that asking others
not to bring gifts is poor etiquette.

Let's go to the post that started this thread. Someone was invited
to a kid's birthday party, that asked folks to bring food, but no
presents. She showed up with food, and was shocked, and
a bit embarrassed, to find she was the only one that did not
bring a present. It left a big enough impression on her to
come to misc.kids and ask if she was out of line.
Now, the reason for etiquette rules so people know what is
expected and won't get embarrassed. With this case as an example,
she did what the invitation said, and yet ended up embarrassed.

The problem with "No presents please" is what exactly
does it apply to?

Does it mean no one, including the parents, grand parents,
or siblings are giving this child presents. I doubt it.
Does it mean "no presents unless from someone very close
to the birthday child". Well, I can't imagine anyone invited
to the party feels they aren't close to the birthday child.
Does it mean no "little presents"? No hand drawn
pictures? No personalized poems? No homemade cookies?
Well, those things always are welcome.
And then there are those who ran across a special
something for this child six months ago and have been saving it for their
birthday. Do you really think those people are going to junk
the present? What about the child's "best friend" who bought
her/him a toy just like the one "she/he always wants to play with at my
house."
Do you stifle the generosity of the young friend, who has obviously
thought this through enough to get something the birthday child likes?
So exactly where do you draw the line?

People have problems with this, those that bring no
presents, just as the invitation literally says, feel embarrassed.
Etiquette is meant to keep that from happening.

Cathy Kearns writes:
Now, the reason for etiquette rules so people know what is
expected and won't get embarrassed.

I think the reason for etiquette rules is to help people get along more
comfortably with one another. Avoiding embarrassment may be part of
that, but it seems a very small part. There are all sorts of situations
where someone might do something that would make me very angry or upset,
and etiquette helps prevent that from happening, even though no
embarrassment is involved. And giving me presents that I don't want,
definitely makes me uncomfortable and unhappy.

Perhaps a hundred years ago when many rules of etiquette were developed,
giving gifts was an expression of something positive, but in modern
American culture, gift-giving is a highly commercialized activity that's
actively manipulated by people who sell stuff, to get people to consume
more and more and more. It's a perfectly reasonable thing for people to
want to opt out of. If etiquette makes that hard to do, then that's a
problem with etiquette.

Personally, I don't have the energy to fight this particular battle, but
I admire people who do.

The problem with "No presents please" is what exactly
does it apply to?

It applies to the person receiving the invitation, and it asks that
person not to bring any presents. This seems extremely obvious. I'm
sure that Miss Manners would tell you that if you get an invitation that
tells you not to bring a present, then you shouldn't bring a present.
Simple.

David desJardins

In article ,
Chris Smith wrote:

Elizabeth Gardner wrote:
True, the motivations are opposite, but their effect in the context of a
party invitation (and their place in the pantheon of impolite behavior)
is, ironically, identical. If you write "no presents, please" on an
invitation, the implication is that if you hadn't written it, the
recipient would have had an obligation to bring a gift.

I'm still waiting for someone to give a good sound reason why this is
true. So far, it's been merely asserted. I know that's not what I
would mean, were I to write such a thing on my child's birthday
invitations. I would mean, instead, that while the guest would
otherwise have had the option to bring a gift, they are now being asked
not to bring one. Of course, David said this some time ago, and no one
answered then, but continued to repeat this thing about presuming that
gifts are normally expected. That's just wrong.

So while I agree with Miss Manners and others that gifts should not be
expected, I think it's an error in logic to conclude that asking others
not to bring gifts is poor etiquette.

But if you truly weren't expecting them, in any way, at any level, why
would you bother asking people not to bring them? The act of asking
them not to implies that you expect there's at least a chance they will,
unless you specify otherwise. An unexpected gift can't logically be
turned down in advance.

The relationship between etiquette and reality is always a little
tenuous (e.g., in polite society it's not done to point to an overweight
person and say, "Gee, you're fat!" even though it's undoubtedly true).
So the reality that presents are expected on certain occasions is
irrelevant to the etiquette rule against acknowledging the expectation
in any way.


I understand the desperation of moms who put "no presents" on an
invitation. I would like to do something similar wth my husband's
sisters, who always go overboard at Christmas with too many toys
composed of too many little tiny plastic pieces. But I haven't been
able to think of a polite way to ask them to rein it in and that's
because there is no polite way.

That, to me, indicates that there's something wrong with the concept of
"polite" that is leading you to that conclusion. If you were expecting
someone to go out of their way to help you, that would be rude. If
you're expecting someone NOT to go out of their way to make your life
more difficult, that's perfectly reasonable. A concept of manners that
indicates that you shouldn't inform them that they are causing you
problems is a bit strange.

If you agree with Miss Manners et al. (as you say you do above) that
presents should not be expected, then it follows that asking people not
to give you presents implies that you think they might unless you asked
them not to. In this case, I know darn well they will, based on past
experience, but it's still quite presumptuous to tell them not to. And
it's further complicated by the fact that though I'm not thrilled with
the gajillion presents my daughter receives, she certainly is, at least
temporarily. So is there a polite way for a third party to request a
moderation of presents when the recipient is delighted with them and
they're not actually causing damage?


We kept birthday presents in check last year by limiting the size of the
party.

Which is wrong. Parents shouldn't be forced with a choice between not
inviting someone or having a pile of flashy toys for gifts.

Actually, that wasn't my primary motivation, it was just a nice
side-effect. My primary motivation was to limit the party to close
friends, rather than invite everyone she knows (numbering dozens of kids
at this point), whether they were a friend or not. Now that she's at an
age where the word "friend" is starting to have a specific meaning, it
seemed like a good time. And I've noticed a levelling off of party
invitations this year. Whether it's because we didn't invite many
people to our party or because everyone is starting to scale back, I'm
not sure, but I have to admit it's a relief not to have to go shopping
every other week for gifts for kids I hardly know.

x-no-archive:yes OSPAM (Naomi Pardue) wrote:

The thing is, you would never write "no presents" on an invitation unless
there were an underlying assumption that without such notation, presents
would be brought. It would be rude of a host to make that assumption.

Except that, I believe that, even according to ettiquette mavens, the two
events where presents ARE "expected" are showers (wedding/baby/whatever) and
children's birthday parties.
And yes, if I wrote 'no gifts' on my child's party invites, I would expect the
guests to honor that. (And, if they DID feel strongly moved to give my child a
gift, to do it away from the party, so as not to embarrass other attendees who
had not brought gifts.)

I have been trying to figure this out - why did those other moms bring
big expensive presents when 'no presents' was specified? I would be
angry with them if it were me. (Rather than embarrassed that I hadn't
brought a gift). With 'friends' like that, who needs enemies. Maybe
it is paranoid of me, but I would suspect that I'd been sandbagged.

grandma Rosalie

"Elizabeth Gardner" wrote in message
...
In article GNrOa.3939$H17.3106@sccrnsc02,
"Byron Canfield" wrote:

"Elizabeth Gardner" wrote in message
...
In article vP9Oa.56185$926.6971@sccrnsc03,
"Byron Canfield" wrote:

I suspect Miss Manners has not quite grasped the era of the Birthday
Gift
Registry. If that is an indication that the rules have changed since
Miss
Manners' time...



Miss Manners' time is now. Her POV, I think, would be that just
because
tacky phenomena like gift registries exist, that doesn't make them
correct. I've personally given in to the concept of bridal
registries,
both as a bride and as a gift giver, because the general idea of
wedding
presents (if one chooses to give them) is to help the happy couple
outfit their new establishment and it seems like a practical approach
because it helps the giver determine what's most needed. But what's
the
deal with birthday registries? To help kids fill out their toy
collection? I don't see any need to foster their greed further. Or
to
relieve their friends of the requirement to put some thought into
gift
selection.

I'm not defending birthday registries -- I think they are very near the
height of presumptiousness. I was just making the observation that Miss
Manners' opinion and the current reality do not match.



It's not the job of etiquette experts to match their directives to the
times, just as it's not the job of grammar experts to accept every
variation in language that happens to come along. "Between you and I"
is endemic, but it's still not correct, and there are good reasons why
it isn't, having to do with the underlying structure of English.

That is, however, immediately refutable by pointing at the evolution of the
English language. If the experts didn't, at some point, accept a variation
in language, we would ftill be typing thingf very ftrangely.

Likewise with the rule about "no presents" on an invitation: the
underlying analysis (which others have laid out in this thread) still
leads to the indisputable conclusion that it's tacky, for the same
reason that birthday registries are tacky.

Miss Manners grasps the era just fine; she just doesn't approve of it in
this instance.

Her approval, however, does not constute "the rule," but merely her
approval. She may not LIKE the idea of presents being expected, and may
thing that they should not be expected, but that does not alter the plain
and simple fact that they ARE expected.

An "expert" is only as qualified as his/her ability to perceive change (for
better or worse).


--
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."
-----------------------------
Byron "Barn" Canfield

In ,
Naomi Pardue wrote:

*The thing is, you would never write "no presents" on an invitation unless
*there were an underlying assumption that without such notation, presents
*would be brought. It would be rude of a host to make that assumption.
*
*Except that, I believe that, even according to ettiquette mavens, the two
*events where presents ARE "expected" are showers (wedding/baby/whatever) and
*children's birthday parties.

Yes, I believe I addressed that in a subsequent post. I think that what
happened is, originally someone talked about a kid's party (makes sense,
this is a kid-focused newsgroup!) but then others chimed in with
discussion of parties in general, in particular someone mentioned what I
think was an anniversary party to which guests were requested not to bring
gifts -- and I got all confused! So, for a child's party, yes - gifts are
normally expected and I imagine if a host would prefer gifts not be
brought, the host is going to have to notify the guests in advance, and it
wouldn't (IMO) be rude to do so. That being said, the kids might get upset
about it. I know my not-quite-3-year-old is very birthday-party savvy, and
as soon as I tell him we are going to one for a friend of his he wants to
know "what are we going to GIVE him, mommy? what will his PWESENT be?" and
I think if I said nothing, he'd be bummed out!!

-h.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

In article ,
Chris Smith wrote:


I am starting to wonder if Miss Manners would prefer (and I must admit
that I've now read some back issues of Miss Manners columns out of
curiosity stemmed from this thread) that the message be conveyed with a
personal phone call or a separate letter, rather than on the invitation
itself.


I don't recall what Miss Manners has to say about it, but my mom
(equally a stickler for such things) says the only way you can
gracefully give any direction on the gift question is orally, and then
only if the giver inquires. You can say, "Oh, please don't bring
anything, your presence is the only gift we want" (which may or may not
work), or you (as the mother of the bride) can say, "They're registered
at Macy's" or you (as the parent of the child) can say, "Well, Johnny
likes drawing and painting, and reading about dogs, and we try to avoid
toy guns," but that's about as far as it can go and still be within the
realm of politeness.

I personally always inquire about the gift thing when I reply to a
birthday invitation, mostly because I often don't know the child very
well and really need some direction. If the mom said not to bring a
present, I would respect that, though my daughter would still make a
card. If people respected the request to RSVP, you could deliver the
"no present" message then, so maybe the faux pas of putting it on the
invitation stems from the faux pas of people not RSVP-ing when they
ought to. In other words, an etiquette failure all around.

In ,
David desJardins wrote:

*Hillary Israeli writes:
* The former is (or can be) motivated by dislike for getting presents.
* The latter is motivated by wanting people to get you stuff. I can't
* see how the two could be farther apart.
*
* BOTH are things that happen only because the person who makes them happen
* is assuming that other people are going to bring presents.
*
*People keep saying this, but it's still not true. Even if I think
*there's only a 1% chance that someone might bring a present, I might
*still specifically ask people not to bring presents, because I want to
*reduce the chance further. It's just not at all reasonable or logical
*to say that, if I ask for something not to happen, implies that if I
*hadn't made that request, then it would have happened or would have been
*obligatory.

I did not say it would have been obligatory. I said it would have
happened. I still believe if there were no preconceived notion that
gift-bringing might occur, then there would be no reason to write "no
gifts."

* *If I say to my child, "Don't go into the street," does that imply that
*the child would otherwise have been required to run into the street?
*This seems ridiculous.

No, not required to - but the possibility would have existed. You're not
going to be at the beach on an island miles from civilization and say
"don't run into the street," are you? Because there is no chance your kid
is going to run into the street.

But, you know, whatever. It's not like I really care what people write on
their invitations, or do not write on their invitations. I mean, the only
time it gets to me is when someone I know invites my mom or my grandma to
a party and does that, because then mom and/or grandma will call me and
say "what's wrong with so-and-so, why would she do something so tacky?" -
of course prompting me to respond something along the lines of "gosh, I
really couldn't say, but isn't it tackier to talk about it behind her
back?"

-h.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large