Define the "Terrible Twos" for me?

H Schinske wrote:

I think for us the worst behaviors peaked at 1.5 and again at 2.5.
Since all my kids were summer babies, this corresponds to the time of
year that they were also most cooped up inside.


Ugh...winter is 6 months of parental punishment IMO. I use outdoor time as
a solution for darn near everything and it works fabulously in decent
weather.

--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2)

In article ,
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Ignoramus15011 wrote:


Perhaps a big component of terrible twos is not that the child is
terrible, but that the child is more difficult for parents as they
require more genuine attention and very close supervision and just
more thinking.


Of course. Were you thinking that "terrible twos"
actually meant that kids really "went bad" at two years
old? It's simply a difficult stage for many children
and parents because of the developmental issues involved.
Some children or parents may have other issues as well,
of course, but that could happen at any time, not just
two or three years old.

Best wishes,
Ericka


a kid who is not troublesome at this stage is not developing well -- it
is about differentiating self from Mom -- which means for the immature
kidlet, oppositional behavior and asserting self.

Ignoramus15011 wrote:


Perhaps a big component of terrible twos is not that the child is
terrible, but that the child is more difficult for parents as they
require more genuine attention and very close supervision and just
more thinking.


Of course. Were you thinking that "terrible twos"
actually meant that kids really "went bad" at two years
old? It's simply a difficult stage for many children
and parents because of the developmental issues involved.
Some children or parents may have other issues as well,
of course, but that could happen at any time, not just
two or three years old.

Best wishes,
Ericka

I am not recyling anything from books... it just so happened that I just
read something about terrible twos this week....

I have been in daycare for over 10 years I can tell you that the terrible
twos exists... are two year olds terrible? No they are not infact it is my
absolute favorite age. There is nothing like a two year old who suddenly
starts explaining how things work to you. I love two year olds. Are some
tougher than others - Oh yes... some bite some scream, some like to smack.
And then there are the quiet sweet two's who go through life like they are
happy and floating on a cloud.

You are experiencing soemthing out of the norm. Enjoy it, most parents do
not have it so easy.

--
Joanie

"You're stronger than you seem, smarter than you think, and braver than you
believe."
~Christopher Robin to Winnie the Pooh



"Ignoramus15011" wrote in message
...
Instead of theorizing and recycling information from books, I anted to
share my personal observations.

As far as I am concerned, (2.5 yo), I have not seen real problems such
as oppositional defiance (doing known bad things to annoy parents), or
tantrums designed to intimidate. A few times we had tantrums, etc,
which in his instance seemed like he just was having an emotional
breakdown and not as a tool to intimidate us to get what he wants.

As for not being able to express what he wants, I am sure it could be
real frustrating for some children, but my son is pretty good at
talking so that has not been an issue.

Perhaps a big component of terrible twos is not that the child is
terrible, but that the child is more difficult for parents as they
require more genuine attention and very close supervision and just
more thinking. Or, they condition the child to get stuff that he wants
by tantrums because they do not listen and fairly consider children's
requests, and give in to tantrums.

i

If they think 2 is bad wait till the child hits 3~! I think the 3's are
worse! I love the 2's!
JMHO
Leslie

--
http://www.leslieshomedaycare.providerpages.net
"Joanie" wrote in message
...
I am not recyling anything from books... it just so happened that I just
read something about terrible twos this week....

I have been in daycare for over 10 years I can tell you that the terrible
twos exists... are two year olds terrible? No they are not infact it is
my
absolute favorite age. There is nothing like a two year old who suddenly
starts explaining how things work to you. I love two year olds. Are some
tougher than others - Oh yes... some bite some scream, some like to smack.
And then there are the quiet sweet two's who go through life like they are
happy and floating on a cloud.

You are experiencing soemthing out of the norm. Enjoy it, most parents do
not have it so easy.

--
Joanie

"You're stronger than you seem, smarter than you think, and braver than
you
believe."
~Christopher Robin to Winnie the Pooh



"Ignoramus15011" wrote in message
...
Instead of theorizing and recycling information from books, I anted to
share my personal observations.

As far as I am concerned, (2.5 yo), I have not seen real problems such
as oppositional defiance (doing known bad things to annoy parents), or
tantrums designed to intimidate. A few times we had tantrums, etc,
which in his instance seemed like he just was having an emotional
breakdown and not as a tool to intimidate us to get what he wants.

As for not being able to express what he wants, I am sure it could be
real frustrating for some children, but my son is pretty good at
talking so that has not been an issue.

Perhaps a big component of terrible twos is not that the child is
terrible, but that the child is more difficult for parents as they
require more genuine attention and very close supervision and just
more thinking. Or, they condition the child to get stuff that he wants
by tantrums because they do not listen and fairly consider children's
requests, and give in to tantrums.

i

In article ,
Banty wrote:

In article , dragonlady
says...

In article ,
"Jim Beaver" wrote:

What do the "terrible twos" look like? I'd like an observational
description of behavior that could be considered normal/typical of the
phase. What are the extremes of normal behavior? How does one tell the
difference between normal "two-ness" and a serious problem? I would
appreciate informed and informative replies.

Thanks very much.

Jim Beaver



I happen to adore 2 year olds. However, there are a number of behaviors
that emerge at this age that can be problematic:

1- Bighters tend to start that at around 18 months to 2-1/2. Also any
other hitting or scratching of other kids.

2-Many kids develope enormous frustration with their body's inability to
do what they WANT to do.

3 - They are developing a more clear idea of themselves as independent
beings. This is something I love watching, but many parents have a hard
time when their child goes from compliant to -- well, to not so
compliant. Kids vary, but most will attempt to excert at least some
independence at this age -- they want to do things themselves, they want
to decide what to do, and they are willing to argue about things. Most
kids start saying "NO!" far more often.

4 - Their verbal abilities may not be up to expressing themselves, so
they may throw temper tantrums instead.

5 - any such behaviors ennumerated in parts 1 through 4, if not manifest at
age
two, will surely manifest at age three! :-)

Banty


And, for what it's worth, again at about 13. If you follow Kegan's
developmental theories, these kids are at the same "balance" in trying
to figure out when to be embedded in community/family, and when to be
independent, and what it all means. I've been told that kids will
repeat their 2 yo behavior sometime between 12 and 15, and for at least
one of my kids, that was true in spades!

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:59:26 GMT, "Jim Beaver"
wrote:

What do the "terrible twos" look like? I'd like an observational
description of behavior that could be considered normal/typical of the
phase. What are the extremes of normal behavior? How does one tell the
difference between normal "two-ness" and a serious problem? I would
appreciate informed and informative replies.

Thanks very much.

Jim Beaver

I think the terrible twos is all in your perspective. I call them the
*terrific twos*

Two year olds are independent:
You will hear:
*me do it.*
*I wanna*
*no help*

Two year olds are frustrated because they can't
always tell you what they want and *they* know, so
you should know too.

Two year olds are creative. They want to choose their
own outfits and they mix and match in ways you never
thought of. If you see a child in the summer wearing
his winter hat and mittens, it's probably a two year old.
If you see a child in the winter wearing a summer dress
over her shirt and pants, it's most likely a two year old
too.

Two year olds are explorers. They are eager to learn
everything about the world. They will get into anything
that they see. They can handle delicate things carefully
with supervision, but they get excited and things will
break.

Two year olds are like teenagers, awkward in their growing
bodies and learning to coordinate new skills. They will
spill and they will break things, but they can learn to help
clean up their messes.

Two year olds often love to *help* you clean. Take advantage
of this one, the stage doesn't last long. Twos want to sweep,
vaccuum, mop, help do laundry, etc. They can learn to sort
and put away their toys if you make it a game too.

Twos are like teens in their ambivalence about growing up.
Sometimes they want to be cuddled and babied and at other
times they want to be *all growed up* He has to be sure you
will still love him even when he is asserting himself.

Remember how much twos are learning at this stage:

Over the next couple of years, she has to learn to do as
kids do and babies don't, which means changing from
diapers to underwear and out of a crib into a bed. She has
to be able to eat and drink without special baby stuff like
bottles and sippy cups. And she has to know enough
playground rules to get along with other kids. Wow! It's a
lot to learn.

At this age, he needs many choices so he can learn to
make decisions well and she knows a lot, but often that
learning doesn't transfer from one situation to another.

Patience is your biggest asset. Leave lots of time so
that he can do things himself. Give her a choice between
two acceptable alternatives. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Only say *no* when it is absolutely necessary for safety.
Children learn what they live, so you have to hold yourself
to a high standard. Model empathy and compassion
and cooperation and twos will learn from you.

Two (which really lasts from about 15 to 18 months to
four years of age) is actually the time when kids are
learning the most important things about the world - how
to get along and cooperate with other humans and the
use of language as a tool for communication and for
expressing emotions.




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:51:53 -0000, "in2minds" wrote:

"What do the "terrible twos" look like?"
[..]

I discussed this with my wife (who's a childminder) a couple of weeks
ago and we came to the conclusion there is no such thing as "terrible
twos", it's just an excuse for poor parenting.
I'm not saying we're the best parents in the world, not by a long shot,
but our son (now 16) never went through a "terrible" stage of any kind,
neither did my cousins kids who were brought up in a similar fashion.

Ohhhh, I see! YOUR kid was just fine from your parenting efforts, so,
therefore, any kid who misbehaves must have bad parents! It's so
simple!

Notice the original poster said:

"I would appreciate informed and informative replies."

In other words, not useless anecdote from an arrogant ass such as
yourself.

PF

I'm with you on that one Leslie. The time when they start to actually work
things out for themselves and test the boundaries.

Debbie

"~Leslie~" spam.com wrote in message
...
If they think 2 is bad wait till the child hits 3~! I think the 3's are
worse! I love the 2's!
JMHO
Leslie

--
http://www.leslieshomedaycare.providerpages.net
"Joanie" wrote in message
...
I am not recyling anything from books... it just so happened that I just
read something about terrible twos this week....

I have been in daycare for over 10 years I can tell you that the
terrible
twos exists... are two year olds terrible? No they are not infact it is
my
absolute favorite age. There is nothing like a two year old who
suddenly
starts explaining how things work to you. I love two year olds. Are
some
tougher than others - Oh yes... some bite some scream, some like to
smack.
And then there are the quiet sweet two's who go through life like they
are
happy and floating on a cloud.

You are experiencing soemthing out of the norm. Enjoy it, most parents
do
not have it so easy.

--
Joanie

"You're stronger than you seem, smarter than you think, and braver than
you
believe."
~Christopher Robin to Winnie the Pooh



"Ignoramus15011" wrote in message
...
Instead of theorizing and recycling information from books, I anted to
share my personal observations.

As far as I am concerned, (2.5 yo), I have not seen real problems such
as oppositional defiance (doing known bad things to annoy parents), or
tantrums designed to intimidate. A few times we had tantrums, etc,
which in his instance seemed like he just was having an emotional
breakdown and not as a tool to intimidate us to get what he wants.

As for not being able to express what he wants, I am sure it could be
real frustrating for some children, but my son is pretty good at
talking so that has not been an issue.

Perhaps a big component of terrible twos is not that the child is
terrible, but that the child is more difficult for parents as they
require more genuine attention and very close supervision and just
more thinking. Or, they condition the child to get stuff that he wants
by tantrums because they do not listen and fairly consider children's
requests, and give in to tantrums.

i

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:59:26 GMT, "Jim Beaver"
wrote:

What do the "terrible twos" look like? I'd like an observational
description of behavior that could be considered normal/typical of the
phase. What are the extremes of normal behavior? How does one tell the
difference between normal "two-ness" and a serious problem? I would
appreciate informed and informative replies.

Thanks very much.

Jim Beaver

I think the terrible twos is all in your perspective. I call them the
*terrific twos*

Two year olds are independent:
You will hear:
*me do it.*
*I wanna*
*no help*

Two year olds are frustrated because they can't
always tell you what they want and *they* know, so
you should know too.

Two year olds are creative. They want to choose their
own outfits and they mix and match in ways you never
thought of. If you see a child in the summer wearing
his winter hat and mittens, it's probably a two year old.
If you see a child in the winter wearing a summer dress
over her shirt and pants, it's most likely a two year old
too.

Two year olds are explorers. They are eager to learn
everything about the world. They will get into anything
that they see. They can handle delicate things carefully
with supervision, but they get excited and things will
break.

Two year olds are like teenagers, awkward in their growing
bodies and learning to coordinate new skills. They will
spill and they will break things, but they can learn to help
clean up their messes.

Two year olds often love to *help* you clean. Take advantage
of this one, the stage doesn't last long. Twos want to sweep,
vaccuum, mop, help do laundry, etc. They can learn to sort
and put away their toys if you make it a game too.

Twos are like teens in their ambivalence about growing up.
Sometimes they want to be cuddled and babied and at other
times they want to be *all growed up* He has to be sure you
will still love him even when he is asserting himself.

Remember how much twos are learning at this stage:

Over the next couple of years, she has to learn to do as
kids do and babies don't, which means changing from
diapers to underwear and out of a crib into a bed. She has
to be able to eat and drink without special baby stuff like
bottles and sippy cups. And she has to know enough
playground rules to get along with other kids. Wow! It's a
lot to learn.

At this age, he needs many choices so he can learn to
make decisions well and she knows a lot, but often that
learning doesn't transfer from one situation to another.

Patience is your biggest asset. Leave lots of time so
that he can do things himself. Give her a choice between
two acceptable alternatives. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Only say *no* when it is absolutely necessary for safety.
Children learn what they live, so you have to hold yourself
to a high standard. Model empathy and compassion
and cooperation and twos will learn from you.

Two (which really lasts from about 15 to 18 months to
four years of age) is actually the time when kids are
learning the most important things about the world - how
to get along and cooperate with other humans and the
use of language as a tool for communication and for
expressing emotions.

I'm the original poster who asked the question. First, thanks to all of you
(even the perfect parent) for answering. I asked the question in the form I
did, seeking observational and generic responses because I didn't want to
start off by describing my situation and thus generating answers that
unconsciously remodeled my situation into the situational experience of the
respondent. At any rate, here's what I've got going on:

My two-year-old (+ 3 mos.) has been an incredible child, mellow, outgoing,
extremely compliant yet lively and assertive. Suddenly last week, she began
having periods of near- or total hysteria--wanting to be picked up but
immediately wanting to be put down if we picked her up, asking for all kinds
of things and activities yet instantly reversing course the moment we made
any attempt to act on her request, saying "no" to everything offered or
suggested, yet also saying "no" to the withdrawal of those offers and
suggestions, asking for a bottle then pushing it away the moment it was
handed to her, all at a rising level of hysteria. None of it seemed to be
deliberately oppositional behavior. Rather it just seemed that she suddenly
had no idea whatsoever what she wanted and was asking for everything she
thought of and then rejecting it if she got it. Trying to hold her and calm
her escalated the situation immensely until she was screaming and crying
uncontrollably. Yet leaving her to her own devices or even completely
ignoring her led to similar escalation. The worst part was that she began
waking up once or twice a night, going instantly from a dead sleep to this
same hysteria, and keeping it up sometimes for a couple of hours. She
always used to wake up at least once a night and have a bottle, but always
went quickly back to sleep, calmly. This sudden new turn of events is not
calm, nor does it include a bottle, which she now rejects and asks for in
rapid succession, but never takes. She eventually conks out after a couple
of hours, but sometimes starts the same routine over again an hour or two
later. In the past six days, I've averaged 3.5-to 4.5 hours sleep a night,
NONE of it consecutive. I'm at my physical and mental rope's end.

She is taking carbatrol, a medication to prevent seizure activity, to which
she has shown some propensity. But this medication has been part of her
normal life for a long time. When I first described the hysterics and the
"no's", a lot of people told me, "Oh, it's the terrible twos." But after
reading your many responses describing, without knowing the details of MY
situation, what YOUR idea of the TT's is, it seems to me this is something
different. Particularly the part about the sudden hysterics upon waking in
the middle of the night.

Anyone have any ideas? I'm a 53 year old man with no one to help me during
the night, and in less than a week, I've been driven nearly insane from
exhaustion and worry about myself and my daughter. I cannot possibly
continue in the current state of affairs until she's three or four! I'm not
sure I can make Saturday.

Jim Beaver