The feminist view of breastfeeding

elizabeth wrote:
Phyl wrote:
snip

And that would be more projection on your part.

No, your tone makes me think you are one bitter person.


Oh, but the rub is that there is NO tone on the internet. All one sees is
words and there can be accent placed with *s or CAPS as well as certain
mood words.... Therefore, you ARE projecting "tone" which is what
Elizabeth said.

OH YEAH???? SCREW YOU!

(note: If you thought my "tone" was less than nice, you must be projecting.)

Heh, no tone on the internet indeed....



Actually, on the internet, using all caps is considered yelling, and is
done primarily by children and people too stupid to be able to continue
a debate, and is generally resorted to when the opponent demonstrates
the stupidity of the original argument presented by the poster.

I think you need a time out, dearie.

Precious, I think the origin of stupidity here is that you think there's
no tone on the Internet. Surely you can understand you're uninformed.


--
Phyl

"elizabeth" wrote in news:1155084728.827677.217330
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:


Mitchell Holman wrote:

"General results indicate that 47.5% of lesbians and 29.7% of
gays have been victimized by a same-sex partner. Further, lesbians
reported an overall perpetration rate of 38% compared to 21.8% for
gay men."

http://www.fathersforlife.org/feminism/female_dv_1.htm

Not exactly a credible source, a group of antiabortion men, catholic,
no doubt.


But nothing in your missive below contradicts it.
Fact remains that within same sex relationships, women
commit (and suffer) more domestic violence than men.




Hardly experts on domestic violence in gay households.
Here's the view from the other side:
http://www.lambda.org/DV_background.htm
Domestic Violence in Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Relationships Partner
battering and abuse in Queer relationships:

Domestic violence in the GLBT community is a serious issue. The rates
of domestic violence in same-gender relationships is roughly the same
as domestic violence against heterosexual women (25%). As in
opposite-gendered couples, the problem is likely underreported. Facing
a system which is often oppressive and hostile towards queers, those
involved in same-gender battering frequently report being afraid of
revealing their sexual orientation or the nature of their relationship.
Others who do not identify as GLBT may not feel that their relationship
fits the definition but may still be in an abusive and dangerous
relationship.

In many ways, domestic violence in lesbian, bisexual and gay
relationships is the same as in opposite-gendered (e.g.,
heterosexually-paired) relationships:

No one deserves to be abused.
Abuse can be physical, sexual, emotional, psychological, and involve
verbal behavior used to coerce, threaten or humiliate.
Abuse often occurs in a cyclical fashion.
The purpose of the abuse is to maintain control and power over one's
partner.
The abused partner feels alone, isolated and afraid, and is usually
convinced that the abuse is somehow her or his fault, or could have
been avoided if she or he knew what to do.
Several important aspects of lesbian, bisexual, and gay relationships
mean domestic violence is often experienced differently:
In same-sex abuse, a pattern of violence or behaviors exists where one
seeks to control the thoughts, beliefs, or conduct of their intimate
partner, or to punish their partner for resisting their control. This
may been seen as physical or sexual violence, or emotional and verbal
abuse. An additional form of emotional abuse for someone who is gay,
lesbian, or bisexual may be to "out" them at work or to family or
friends.
Local resources for domestic violence in the GLBT community are often
scarce and many traditional domestic violence services lack the
training, sensitivity, and expertise to adequately recognize and
address
abusive GLBT relationships. A Queer individual who is being battered
must overcome homophobia and denial of the issue of battering.
Lesbians, bisexuals and gay men who have been abused have much more
difficulty in finding sources of support than heterosexual women who
are battered by their male partners.

Here are more ways same-gender domestic violence is unique:


It is frequently incorrectly assumed that lesbian, bi and gay abuse
must be "mutual." It is not often seen as being mutual in heterosexual
battering.
Utilizing existing services (such as a shelter, attending support
groups or calling a crisis line) either means lying or hiding the
gender of the batterer to be perceived (and thus accepted) as a
heterosexual. Or it can mean "coming out", which is a major life
decision. If lesbians, bi's and gays come out to service providers who
are not discreet with this information, it could lead to the victim
losing their home, job, custody of children, etc. This may also
precipitate local and/or statewide laws to affect some of these
changes, depending on the area.
Telling heterosexuals about battering in a lesbian, bi or gay
relationship can reinforce the myth many believe that lesbian, bi and
gay relationships are "abnormal." This can further cause the victim to
feel isolated and unsupported.
The lesbian, bi and gay community is often not supportive of victims of
battering because many want to maintain the myth that there are no
problems (such as child abuse, alcoholism, domestic violence, etc.) in
lesbian, bi and gay relationships.
Receiving support services to help one escape a battering relationship
is more difficult when there are also oppressions faced. Battered
lesbians and female bisexuals automatically encounter sexism and
homophobia, and gay and bisexual men encounter homophobia. Lesbian or
gay people of color who are battered also face racism. These forms of
social oppressions make it more difficult for these groups to get the
support needed (legal, financial, social, housing, medical, etc.) to
escape and live freely from an abusive relationship.
Lesbian, bi and gay survivors of battering may not know others who are
lesbian, bi or gay, meaning that leaving the abuser could result in
total isolation.
Lesbians, bisexuals and gays are usually not as tied financially to
their partner, which can be a benefit if they decide to end the
relationship. However, if their lives are financially intertwined, such
as each paying a rent or mortgage and having "built a home together",
they have no legal process to assist in making sure assets are evenly
divided, a process which exists for their married, heterosexual
counterparts.
The lesbian, bi and gay community within the area may be small, and in
all likelihood everyone the survivor knows will soon know of their
abuse. Sides will be drawn and support may be difficult to find.
Anonymity is not an option, a characteristic many heterosexual
survivors can draw upon in "starting a new life" for themselves within
the same city. //end
And more!
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/dv.htm
Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Health
Domestic violence among GLBT people


In recent years, GLBT survivors of domestic violence have begun
speaking out about their experience in increasing numbers. New
organizations have been created to address the issue and provide
support to survivors.

Historically, though, there has been an overwhelming silence about
same-sex domestic violence. Many people still don't believe that
same-sex domestic violence really exists, and people who are victims
are often ashamed to tell their communities or families. In fact,
numerous studies have shown that violence in heterosexual and same-sex
relationships occurs at approximately the same rate (one in four).

Domestic violence in lesbian or gay couples is largely the same as it
is in heterosexual couples. One partner maintains control over the
other person and limits his or her freedom to socialize. The abused
partner becomes isolated and confused. The abuse can be physical,
sexual, emotional, psychological, economic, and verbal. The abuse
doesn't happen all of the time-there are sweet and close periods that
are interrupted by unpredictable violence.

After the violence the abuser may be apologetic, asking forgiveness.
Many survivors find that when they move to end the relationship, their
partner may increase the threats and manipulation. The abuse often gets
worse over time. If there are children living in the home, they are
terrorized by the violence even if they are not hit themselves.

Myths about same-sex domestic violence


MYTH: "Violence between two men or two women is a 'fight' between
equals."
Truth: Domestic violence is not the same as a consensual fight, no
matter who is involved. Loving, healthy relationships do not include
physical fighting. Domestic violence is about control and domination of
one person by another; either person could be male, either person could
be female. Batterers do not have to be bigger or stronger than the
person they abuse.


MYTH: "If you fight back, then it's not abuse."
Truth: Fighting back is not abuse, nor does it make the relationship
"mutually abusive." Survivors have used violence for many reasons,
including self-defense, desperation, anger, and to try to stop the
abuse. When survivors use violence the results can be complicated.
Police are often confused by same-sex domestic violence and may arrest
the wrong or both parties. Friends may disbelieve the survivor. Using
violence to survive is a sign that something is wrong -- making a plan
to get support is important.


MYTH: "Women are not violent."
Truth: There is ample evidence that both genders have capacity for
violence. Some women abuse other women, men, and children. Abusers and
their victims come from all genders, races, classes, religions, and
regions.


MYTH: "Lesbian relationships are based on equality - lesbians have
ideal, loving relationships."
Truth: Lesbian relationships are just as good and as bad as all other
relationships and have most of the same problems. The myth that lesbian
relationships are perfect leads to silence among lesbians who are
abused.


MYTH: "Domestic violence primarily occurs among GLBT people who hang
out at bars, are poor or are people of color."
Truth: Abusers and their victims come from all genders, races,
classes, religions, and regions. Racist and classist stereotypes around
domestic violence are common not just in the GLBT community, but also
in the dominant heterosexual culture.


MYTH: "The law does not and will not protect victims of same-sex
domestic violence."
Truth: Although many law enforcement professionals and court systems
are still confused about same-sex domestic violence, there have been
many constructive changes in recent years. In many jurisdictions,
mandatory arrest policies require the police to intervene and arrest
the person they perceive to be the batterer. Although many police
remain confused when attempting to sort out incidents involving same
gender couples and may end up arresting the wrong or both parties in a
battering situation, opportunities to educate and train the police and
courts about the realities of domestic violence in same-sex
relationships are increasing.


Differences between same-sex and opposite-sex domestic violence


Although domestic violence is largely the same in heterosexual and
homosexual relationships, gay, lesbian and bisexual victims of domestic
violence have some additional problems.

Fewer services

To get help you have to come out. There aren't very many services to
help lesbians, and women who have been abused by another woman are
sometimes treated with ignorance or homophobia by the domestic violence
service agencies and shelters that are supposed to help them. There are
few or no shelters and services for male victims of domestic violence,
gay or straight.

There are some domestic violence services specifically for GLBT people
such as:

The Northwest Network for GLBT survivors of domestic violence
Gay Men's Domestic Violence Project
Increased isolation

The isolation that accompanies domestic violence can be compounded by
being GLBT in a homophobic society. Silence about domestic violence
within the LGBT community further isolates the victim, giving more
power to the batterer.

Protecting the community

GLBT people feel understandably protective of their relationships in
the face of widespread discrimination and negative stereotypes among
the wider population. Many GLBT people don't want to admit openly that
their relationship-which is already seen as "sick" - has this problem.

Heterosexist control

One of the weapons that batterers in same-sex relationships may use
involve "heterosexist control." This means that the batterer takes
advantage of the homophobic and heterosexist nature of the larger
society - as well as our own internalized heterosexism - to further
dominate and control their partner. Heterosexist control can take a
variety of forms, including:

Threats to "out" the victim -- A batterer may threaten to tell friends,
family, co-workers, bosses or the landlord about the victim's sexual
orientation as an additional threat.
Increased risk of losing children -- The risk of losing children to
third parties (the birth mother or father, grandparents, the State) is
greater for GLBT couples when domestic violence is involved. A batterer
can threaten disclosing the sexual orientation of a parent to the
courts or foster care authorities.
Threats of deportation -- For individuals who may not be document
residents of this country, abusive partners may threaten to report
their partner to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Questions to ask yourself about your relationship

1. Has your partner ever pushed, choked, hit or thrown things at you or
threatened to hurt you?
2. Has your partner ever threatened to "out" you to your family, your
friends, your school, or your job?

3. Has your partner ever put you down or told you to "shut up" in front
of other people?

4. Has your partner ever gotten drunk or high and used it as an excuse
for sex or to hurt you?

5. Do you feel like it's easier to just go along with what your partner
wants, rather than make your own decisions?

6. Has your partner ever started sex with you while you were sleeping
without permission?

7. Has your partner refused to practice safer sex when you asked him or
her to?

8. Has your partner ever left you someplace that wasn't safe or
insisted you go somewhere unsafe?

9. Have you stopped seeing your friends or family to avoid your
partner's jealousy?

10. Do you watch what you say to make sure your partner approves?


If you answered "yes" - even once - your partner may be abusive.

What you can do if you are scared or concerned:

If it's an emergency, call 911 for assistance.


If it isn't an emergency right now, start planning. You can protect
your safety by:
Making a plan in case you have to leave quickly.
Putting together an "emergency kit" (link to info at bottom of page) of
things you would really need if you had to leave suddenly.
Establishing contacts with friends and family so you have a place to go
in an emergency.
Considering obtaining a restraining order to protect yourself.
You have the right to file a police report if you have been physically
abused. Call your local police department to have a police officer sent
out to you or go into any police station to make a report.

Remember that you didn't cause your abuse. Everyone deserves to be
treated with respect. Don't let your partner control or mistreat you.
Help is available.

Sample emergency kit:

Money - store some cash in a secret place where you can easily get to
it. Be sure to include some coins for phone calls.
Keys - an extra set if keys should be kept in a safe place (at a
friend's or neighbor's) in case you need to leave quickly.
Important papers for you and your children - birth certificates,
passports, health insurance documents, photo ID/driver's license,
immunization records, checkbook, medication, food stamps, social
security cards, etc. (or copies of them) should be kept in a safe
place.
Basic items - keep a small bag with your medicines, copies of your
legal papers, an extra pair of glasses, and a set of clothes.



So much for the "gentler sex"..............

Women aren't gentle, they are lousy fighters, and thus tend to go after
small children, the only category of homicide where women outnumber
men.

The cause of violence is cohabitation. AT least 80% of the violent
crimes in America are committed on and by cohabitants, family members,
roommates and live ins. In the animal shelter, we put them in seperate
cages to avoid fighting--any animal, esp our species, will lash out at
the nearest target when under stress. Of course, such crimes aren't
prosecuted the way stranger violence is.

One thing I've heard from actual researchers on domestic violence in
the gay community is that there is not the same rate of HOMICIDAL
violence in gay couples, and it may be because both of them tend to be
evenly matched in a fight, unlike straight couples. That's why reports
of domestic HOMICIDE indicate that most of the killing in couples is
men killing women. In fact the rate of women killing men in domestic
violence has DROPPED in the past years, attributed to more shelters and
escape routes for women.

So that's why I am against gay AND straight marriage. It leads to
domestic violence. Adults should live alone, and kids raised
communally in a setting where the parents come to the kids and are thus
under supervision of others at all times. Domestic violence, and child
and elder abuse, happen because of the stresses of living together, and
being hidden from public view. Since we aren't going to return to
living in extended families, it's time to realize that new methods of
raising children and living must be created, because the way we are now
simply isn't working, nor will it work.

In the animal shelter, if you put the Pomeranians in with the pit
bulls, you end up with dead Poms and bloody pits. So why do we do this
with our own species?

On 8 Aug 2006 16:29:06 -0700, elizabeth wrote:

You know, Johnyycakes, I'm flattered that you think I'm a lesbian, and
men like you wish I was one, but it's simply not factual. But then,
netloons like you don't like reality much anyway.


Ha! and lookit the groups you are posting your hate towards other women
into. A gossip group, a feminist group, and the LushNimrod group. Yeah,
theres your bastions of reality, right there.




Tell me, do you have a lactation fetish, or do you want to lactate
yourself?


That doesnt really interest me. Is it worse that you want me to have a
lactation fetish, or that i "want you to be a lesbian"? I simply remarked
that you certainly sounded like a bitter old feminist. If I'm wrong, sue
me.



You certainly don't like feminists,


worst hypocrites on earth. Just like you, they hate other women who don't
agree with their skewed and self-righteous bull****. Plenty of evidence of
YOU doing exactly that, here.



so you must be trolling
this thread looking for mooporn.


Gosh. I didnt know that existed. Is your picture all over it?

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:07:28 -0500, Mitchell Holman wrote:

"elizabeth" wrote in news:1155084728.827677.217330
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:


Mitchell Holman wrote:

"General results indicate that 47.5% of lesbians and 29.7% of
gays have been victimized by a same-sex partner. Further, lesbians
reported an overall perpetration rate of 38% compared to 21.8% for
gay men."

http://www.fathersforlife.org/feminism/female_dv_1.htm

Not exactly a credible source, a group of antiabortion men, catholic,
no doubt.


But nothing in your missive below contradicts it.
Fact remains that within same sex relationships, women
commit (and suffer) more domestic violence than men.



What about gay men relationship violence? Worse, or the same, as gay women
relationships? Anyway, I agree, nothing she found online, contradicts the
idea that more and more gay women are ending up in womens shelters, victims
of abuse by women. Why does Elizabeth hate other women so much?

JohnArbor wrote in news:dkwhy1e1ymq6
:

On 8 Aug 2006 16:29:06 -0700, elizabeth wrote:

You know, Johnyycakes, I'm flattered that you think I'm a lesbian, and
men like you wish I was one, but it's simply not factual. But then,
netloons like you don't like reality much anyway.


Ha! and lookit the groups you are posting your hate towards other women
into. A gossip group, a feminist group, and the LushNimrod group. Yeah,
theres your bastions of reality, right there.



Good thing she is not a lesbian. Most would not want
to share the same sidewalk as her.



Tell me, do you have a lactation fetish, or do you want to lactate
yourself?


That doesnt really interest me. Is it worse that you want me to have a
lactation fetish, or that i "want you to be a lesbian"? I simply remarked
that you certainly sounded like a bitter old feminist. If I'm wrong, sue
me.


Women Who Hate Women. Isn't there a 12 step program for that?




You certainly don't like feminists,


worst hypocrites on earth. Just like you, they hate other women who don't
agree with their skewed and self-righteous bull****. Plenty of evidence
of
YOU doing exactly that, here.


Jealously runs deep, esp with barren women.




so you must be trolling
this thread looking for mooporn.


Gosh. I didnt know that existed. Is your picture all over it?

On 8 Aug 2006 16:11:41 -0700, elizabeth wrote:



Is your friend a violent lesbian?
Probably that's why she hates men so much, she knows you.


The only person here I see hating men, is you. But then again, you seem to
hate everybody.


Why don't you ask HER to post what SHE knows, that is, if she exists.


Why do you hate other women so much Elizabeth?





Men like you are why there are lesbians



Ha! So its A CHOICE, not wired in from birth.


Thats interesting.

JohnArbor wrote in news:swatg5v0to4x.1h1vxy3beluev
:

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:07:28 -0500, Mitchell Holman wrote:

"elizabeth" wrote in
news:1155084728.827677.217330
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:


Mitchell Holman wrote:

"General results indicate that 47.5% of lesbians and 29.7% of
gays have been victimized by a same-sex partner. Further, lesbians
reported an overall perpetration rate of 38% compared to 21.8% for
gay men."

http://www.fathersforlife.org/feminism/female_dv_1.htm

Not exactly a credible source, a group of antiabortion men, catholic,
no doubt.


But nothing in your missive below contradicts it.
Fact remains that within same sex relationships, women
commit (and suffer) more domestic violence than men.



What about gay men relationship violence? Worse, or the same, as gay
women
relationships? Anyway, I agree, nothing she found online, contradicts the
idea that more and more gay women are ending up in womens shelters,
victims
of abuse by women. Why does Elizabeth hate other women so much?


Listening to too much Ann Coulter and Dr Laura, perhaps?


Mitchell Holman

"It would be a much better country if
women did not vote. That is simply a fact".
Ann Coulter, May 17, 2003.

"I think women should be armed but should not vote"
Ann Coulter, February 26, 2001.

"~* Magda ~*" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:10:09 GMT, in alt.gossip.celebrities, "avery"
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:

...
... Don't blame me for your shoddy communication skills (term used
charitably).
... Nobody questioned whether or not you were here -- that much is all too
... obvious. I guess I can only conclude that you consider your parents to
be
... those repulsive breeders, which is kind of a sad way to go through
life but,
... in a sense, explains a lot.

If my English is not good enough for you, I can use three other languages.
Interested?

Are you pretending that you're too fabulously international to make any
frickin' sense? How would scribbling your cranky, senseless nonsequiturs in
French, Italian or German clear things up? Go right ahead if you need to
show off (bearing in mind that I speak those three fluently as well, so
there), but that doesn't obscure the fact that your retort made no sense at
all. You know, the retort you accidentally chopped off of your last post.
Here, just for convenience:

ME: ... You wouldn't be here without those *breeders* who seem to repulse
you so much.

YOU: And I would know it - how, exactly?

ME: Because you have parents? Were you harvested in a Petri dish?

YOU: Are you a breeder too? Understanding levels low today? Again,
sloooowwwwwly this time: if I wasn't here, how the hell would I know?

"~* Magda ~*" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:32:45 GMT, in alt.gossip.celebrities, "avery"
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:

...
... If my English is not good enough for you, I can use three other
languages.
... Interested?
...
... Are you pretending that you're too fabulously international to make
any
... frickin' sense?

No, I am saying that I'm giving up on you.

Clear now? Good!

The only thing that's clear is that you realize that you've been busted
writing nonsensical drivel that you can't explain (hence your careful
editing of every response you write to delete it). I'm sure I can plod on
with my life unenlightened as to precisely what you meant by the grumpy
illiterate outburst that you hoped would be misconstrued as cultured
*European* protestations too erudite and complex for the masses to grasp.

On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:46:20 +0200, ~* Magda ~* wrote:

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 13:43:27 -0400, in alt.gossip.celebrities, JohnArbor
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:

... On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:33:21 +0200, ~* Magda ~* wrote:
...
... On Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:32:45 GMT, in alt.gossip.celebrities, "avery"
... arranged some electrons, so they looked like this:
...
... ...
... ... If my English is not good enough for you, I can use three other languages.
... ... Interested?
... ...
... ... Are you pretending that you're too fabulously international to make any
... ... frickin' sense?
...
... No, I am saying that I'm giving up on you.
...
...
... and the French run up the white flag..... again.

You wish. I am not even French, you sparkle... LOL


dont you live in Paris?