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#31
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How Children REALLY React To Control
On 9 Jun 2004, Kane wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 13:23:03 -0700, Doan wrote: On 9 Jun 2004, Chris wrote: In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote: : But by and large, the system works. And throwing it out before we're : positive that we have something that will work better in the real world, : with real parents and real children, would be foolish. Once again, Nathan, you appear to be talking about win/win cooperative nonpunitive discipline as if it were some sort of new untested concept rather than a set of approaches to dealing with conflict in the parent/child relationship developed decades ago and used successfully in thousands of families. Ah! I just love the logic. :-) Isn't this the same argument that you don't like about spanking? Afterall, spanking has been used for thousands of years and BILLIONS of families. Sorry. Not the same logic at all. And no, that's not the argument he used either. You overlooked the word "successfully." That's the key. Your definition? ;-) If all you have is a hammer ever problem looks like a nail. And if you have a hammer when the problem is a nail? :-) Some parents have learned about other ways to solve problems than using a hammer. And most parents learned when to use a hammer. :-) And in fact, we now drive nails, or make fastenings with many more things than hammers and nails. And banned hammers? ;-) We've even learned how to line up molecules so materials will bond to each other without "spanking" them. So Home Depot no longer sell hammers and nails??? :-) In other words. Parents are improving. I hope so! Are you against improving? nope. Are you? :-) Improvement can save a lot of cat's-asses in good wood, avoid a lot of smashed fingers, and reduce production of a lot of, dare I say it? Injured children. And which cultures made more improvements, non-spanking ones? Doan Not hitting, and doing other things instead seems to be too hard for some. Probably they should think about getting a pet rock. Or stop listen to the "experts". :-) Doan Kane |
#32
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How Children REALLY React To Control
"Doan" wrote in message ... Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-) Why in the world would you think that? To me, his attitude looks a whole lot more like what I would expect from someone who was punished as a child, resented it, and can't imagine anyone else resenting it any less (or at least much less) than he does. Further, I think there are a lot of children who have very good reason to resent the way their parents use their authority. There are parents who make their kids wait on them. There are parents who frequently answer the question "Why?" with "Because I said so," or, "Because I'm bigger than you." There are parents who mostly ignore their kids when they aren't scolding or punishing them, who view their children more as an inconvenience than as a treasure. Even under the best of conditions, the use of parental authority can easily generate a certain amount of resentment. If the relationship between the parents and the children is strong, and if the children trust and respect their parents, bits of occasional resentment can generally be swallowed up by the overall strength of the relationship. Even if the children disagree with their parents, the children know their parents love them and are trying to do what's best for them. But if parents give their children little reason to love, or trust, or respect them, how much can punishment accomplish in that kind of vacuum of positive influence? It is the positive elements of the parent-child relationship - the example parents set, and the respect and trust they earn, and their ability to persuade with reason - that have by far the strongest influence on children's behavior. When those elements aren't there, or are weak, the very most that punishment can accomplish is to hold negative behavior partially in check. And even while it does that, it also generates resentment that can fan the flames for future misbehavior. As I've told Chris and the others on his side of the issue, I view punishment - including spanking - as something that can be useful at times when positive efforts fail or when there isn't time to make them work properly. But the idea that if a child behaves badly on a frequent basis, the blame should automatically be fixed on not enough spanking is absurd. Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem that spanking could not possibly put more than a band-aid on. Nathan |
#33
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How Children REALLY React To Control
"Nathan A. Barclay" wrote in message ... Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem that spanking could not possibly put more than a band-aid on. By the way, before anyone makes too much of this statement, you might consider how many band-aids are sold each year. More seriously, I do think I need to clarify this a bit. There are a lot of situations where additional spanking or other punishment would help reduce behavior problems - and especially behavior problems in the presence of adults or that adults are likely to learn about. And in some cases, the possibility of punishment genuinely needs to be an ongoing part of a solution, at least until a child's self-discipline is ready to take over. But when there are major problems contributing to children's wanting to misbehave, and society places the blame on a lack of punishment, we never even notice the underlying problems much less try to find ways to address them that will reduce children's desire to misbehave. We focus on suppressing the misbehavior that is a symptom of the deeper problem, and completely ignore the underlying disease. And because we focus only on the symptom, we keep applying band-aid after band-aid while the wound itself does not heal. That distraction from other issues that need to be addressed is what makes the knee-jerk, "He must not have been spanked," or, "He must not have been spanked enough," attitude so very dangerous. Nathan |
#34
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How Children REALLY React To Control
Doan wrote:
But I do believe and have proof that my mouth is FULL OF ****! Doan ------------------ You are right! :-) Steve |
#35
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How Children REALLY React To Control
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... Nathan A. Barclay wrote: Our kids read or slept or listened to music or TV or computer just exactly as they LIKED, and came and went as they liked, and they thereby learned their OWN INTERNAL self-regulation for THEIR OWN purposes, and didn't have to undergo ANY shock of first freedom when they moved from our home to their first place of their own! I find it curious that someone who claims to have such strong respect for his children's rights and desires would adopt as arrogant, disrespectful, and insulting a tone as you do toward other adults. -------------------- Not all adults, only abusive ones. If the shoe fits, wear it! How would you expect your children to react to the kind of tone you are using here on this newsgroup? -------------------- When they bother to read any of it they usually giggle uncontrollably. What would your children think if they told you they felt one way about something, and you tried to insist that they could not possibly feel that way and must feel some other way entirely? ---------------------------- Gee, since none of us were INSANE or an ASSHOLE, it never came up! And why would you expect such a tone to be any more successful with adults than it would be with your children? --------------------------- Because those who abuse need to be harmed to stop them, they are beyond remediation. In future societies we will need work-camps for such assholes. Steve |
#36
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How Children REALLY React To Control
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message ... Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-) -------------- True. Why in the world would you think that? To me, his attitude looks a whole lot more like what I would expect from someone who was punished as a child, resented it, and can't imagine anyone else resenting it any less (or at least much less) than he does. -------------------------------- No. Think a minute, what is the one way someone could be exposed to abuse and yet not themselves be abused, so that they learned about abuse but had little or none of the neurotic reaction against it, but who was scandalized by it and horrified by it unlike others more accustomed to it?? Answer: By living as the exceptional family among a real bunch of abusive insane fundy rural hillbillies and being totally disgusted by the effects of abuse on their little playmates who ARE being abyssmally abused for a decade or more by these abusive cretins!! Further, I think there are a lot of children who have very good reason to resent the way their parents use their authority. There are parents who make their kids wait on them. There are parents who frequently answer the question "Why?" with "Because I said so," or, "Because I'm bigger than you." There are parents who mostly ignore their kids when they aren't scolding or punishing them, who view their children more as an inconvenience than as a treasure. ---------------------------- And people who beat their kids with thin fiberlgass curtain rods. Even under the best of conditions, the use of parental authority can easily generate a certain amount of resentment. ----------- Try MURDER! If the relationship between the parents and the children is strong, and if the children trust and respect their parents, bits of occasional resentment can generally be swallowed up by the overall strength of the relationship. --------------- NOTHING evil EVER disappears! It ALWAYS does PERMANENT DAMAGE! Even if the children disagree with their parents, the children know their parents love them and are trying to do what's best for them. But if parents give their children little reason to love, or trust, or respect them, how much can punishment accomplish in that kind of vacuum of positive influence? --------------------- You cannot compensate that way, it does NOT WORK! The revenge-hate sees that as a dishonest deception. It is the positive elements of the parent-child relationship - the example parents set, and the respect and trust they earn, and their ability to persuade with reason - that have by far the strongest influence on children's behavior. When those elements aren't there, or are weak, the very most that punishment can accomplish is to hold negative behavior partially in check. And even while it does that, it also generates resentment that can fan the flames for future misbehavior. ---------------------------------- Nonsense, punishment for things that are not crimes, and corporal punishments for anything, only damages those kids and create criminal monsters!! As I've told Chris and the others on his side of the issue, I view punishment - including spanking - as something that can be useful at times when positive efforts fail or when there isn't time to make them work properly. ---------------------- You just mean when you're lazy or stupid. And you're wrong, same reason. Do you really simply not GET this stuff, or WHAT!!??????? Have you ever been hit or threatened? Why can't you be honest about what you felt, then, and realize that it makes a child quite literally turn around away from the future of his life, and instead turn upon you and swear a dire oath of vengeance, or to start pushing back at you right away, to the exclusion of their future, any sort of positive development whatsoever, and your safety! But the idea that if a child behaves badly on a frequent basis, the blame should automatically be fixed on not enough spanking is absurd. Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem ------------------------ The problem was ALWAYS: EARLIER spanking, hitting, coercing, and threatening!! that spanking could not possibly put more than a band-aid on. Nathan --------------------------- It's actually like rubbing salt in the wound. Steve |
#37
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How Children REALLY React To Control
Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
"Nathan A. Barclay" wrote in message ... More seriously, I do think I need to clarify this a bit. There are a lot of situations where additional spanking or other punishment would help reduce behavior problems ------------------ That's an absolute lie and a totally trashy amateurish falsehood, nothing more!! and especially behavior problems in the presence of adults or that adults are likely to learn about. -------------------- Ain't any that are not the child's RIGHT! So you want to be able to follow children and around and raise your hand and make them flinch, eh? Reminds me of an asshole father showing off at a family reunion picnic, where he wanted to display his "ability" to control(abuse) his children, two young teenage boys. He kept making them flinch like that till the older one turned and hit him in the face and knocked him down, and the younger one jumped on him and beat the **** out of him with a barbecue fork!! IT took ten people to keep them from killing him! You're nothing but human **** if you think that! And in some cases, the possibility of punishment genuinely needs to be an ongoing part of a solution, at least until a child's self-discipline is ready to take over. -------------- You're using euphemisms, you ACTUALLY mean TERROR! But when there are major problems contributing to children's wanting to misbehave, and society places the blame on a lack of punishment, we never even notice the underlying problems much less try to find ways to address them that will reduce children's desire to misbehave. ----------------------- The normal desires of kids for autonomy are not to be screwed with, or you can drive a peacable child to become criminal toward others. ALL criminal misbehaviors against others are CAUSED by punishments! NO punishment of ANY KIND can make them magically go away, it will only cause them to change form and metastasize!! In all cases, punishment ALWAYS causes criminality! We focus on suppressing the misbehavior that is a symptom of the deeper problem, and completely ignore the underlying disease. And because we focus only on the symptom, we keep applying band-aid after band-aid while the wound itself does not heal. That distraction from other issues that need to be addressed is what makes the knee-jerk, "He must not have been spanked," or, "He must not have been spanked enough," attitude so very dangerous. Nathan -------------------------------- It is idiotic to imagine that if hitting someone makes them turn and want to hit you, that doing it somemore will ever help the situation! Steve |
#38
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How Children REALLY React To Control
Doan wrote:
On 9 Jun 2004, Kane wrote: Improvement can save a lot of cat's-asses in good wood, avoid a lot of smashed fingers, and reduce production of a lot of, dare I say it? Injured children. And which cultures made more improvements, non-spanking ones? -------------------------------- They weren't actually "improvements", they were degradations! Not hitting, and doing other things instead seems to be too hard for some. Probably they should think about getting a pet rock. Or stop listen to the "experts". :-) Doan ------------------------------- You need to be professionally tortured till you shut your ****ing vicious little ********. Steve |
#39
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How Children REALLY React To Control
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote: "Doan" wrote in message ... Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-) Why in the world would you think that? Because he said so! :-0 To me, his attitude looks a whole lot more like what I would expect from someone who was punished as a child, resented it, and can't imagine anyone else resenting it any less (or at least much less) than he does. Nope! That would described Chris and LaVonne! :-) Further, I think there are a lot of children who have very good reason to resent the way their parents use their authority. There are parents who make their kids wait on them. There are parents who frequently answer the question "Why?" with "Because I said so," or, "Because I'm bigger than you." There are parents who mostly ignore their kids when they aren't scolding or punishing them, who view their children more as an inconvenience than as a treasure. And you will get no disagreement from me. Even under the best of conditions, the use of parental authority can easily generate a certain amount of resentment. If the relationship between the parents and the children is strong, and if the children trust and respect their parents, bits of occasional resentment can generally be swallowed up by the overall strength of the relationship. Even if the children disagree with their parents, the children know their parents love them and are trying to do what's best for them. But if parents give their children little reason to love, or trust, or respect them, how much can punishment accomplish in that kind of vacuum of positive influence? How much can non-punishment accomplish in such the situation? It is the positive elements of the parent-child relationship - the example parents set, and the respect and trust they earn, and their ability to persuade with reason - that have by far the strongest influence on children's behavior. When those elements aren't there, or are weak, the very most that punishment can accomplish is to hold negative behavior partially in check. And even while it does that, it also generates resentment that can fan the flames for future misbehavior. Agree! As I've told Chris and the others on his side of the issue, I view punishment - including spanking - as something that can be useful at times when positive efforts fail or when there isn't time to make them work properly. But the idea that if a child behaves badly on a frequent basis, the blame should automatically be fixed on not enough spanking is absurd. Most of the time, there is a much deeper problem that spanking could not possibly put more than a band-aid on. And if you have been following my posts, I have consistently said spanking/non-spanking has little to do with it. Parenting is MUCH MORE than that! Doan |
#40
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How Children REALLY React To Control
"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message ... No. Think a minute, what is the one way someone could be exposed to abuse and yet not themselves be abused, so that they learned about abuse but had little or none of the neurotic reaction against it, but who was scandalized by it and horrified by it unlike others more accustomed to it?? Answer: By living as the exceptional family among a real bunch of abusive insane fundy rural hillbillies and being totally disgusted by the effects of abuse on their little playmates who ARE being abyssmally abused for a decade or more by these abusive cretins!! If the statistics even come halfway close to holding, most of your "little playmates" presumably grew up to believe in spanking. Would you take the kind of verbally abusive attitude toward them that you do toward me? Or are you just doing it toward me because I'm someone you don't know, and are therefore more free to assume the worst about:? And why would you expect such a tone to be any more successful with adults than it would be with your children? --------------------------- Because those who abuse need to be harmed to stop them, they are beyond remediation. In future societies we will need work-camps for such assholes. "They need to be harmed to stop them" sounds an awful lot like the attitude that "those who abuse" take toward children, doesn't it? And if it is impossible to persuade people who believe that spanking is useful that it isn't, how do you expect us to get to the kind of "future societies" you speak of? |
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