Canada: Court tells doctor to foot daughter's med school bill

wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, I think the key point was that the daughter was bing eduated to
pursue the same profession as her father and he was able to afford it.

I'm hot on this topic because both my parents have MS/MA's and neither
paid a time towards the college education of their 5 chilodren. My
mother really couldn't afford it on her salary and the $50 per month
per child that my father sent until the child in question graduated
from HS.

My Dad was a very senior man at THE big multinational Civil Engineering
firm and was absolutely roll in money.

I think that a child should be able to resonably expect to attain the
same level of education the parents have, especially in cases where the
parents can clearly afford it. Apparently the judge in this case
thought so, too.

Grace


The problem with the entitlement, or socialist way of thinking is that those
who think something is "owed" to them, rarely are worth a bucket of warm
spit.
If one has to work toward something, it is more likely they will actually
want to achieve it, will treasure it more highly and make the time spend
attaining it more useful.
Those forcing decisions on others should be ready, willing and able to
finance those decisions as well, not to even go into the little problem of
individual rights and personal freedom.
Phil #3

The problem with the entitlement, or socialist way of thinking is that
those
who think something is "owed" to them, rarely are worth a bucket of
warm
spit.
If one has to work toward something, it is more likely they will
actually
want to achieve it, will treasure it more highly and make the time
spend
attaining it more useful.
Those forcing decisions on others should be ready, willing and able to
finance those decisions as well, not to even go into the little problem
of
individual rights and personal freedom.
Phil #3

Trust me, Phil, i'm no where near being a socialist. I'm a
consertvative Republican. And I view "entitlements" as a code word for
welfare.

However, as you can see from my post I am very recentful about having
been assigned to the ranks of the EXchildren after my parent's divorce.

The one thing I agree about is that those who force things on others
should be ready, wiling and able to finance those decisionsas well, not
even to go into the little problem of individual rights and personal
freedoms.

Trust me when I tell you that when my father left our family he forced
maximum inconvenience on those he left behind. If he decided that his
individual rights and freedoms preimpted his
obligations.responsibiiltes to the chilodren he sired in his first
marriage he should have thought twice about how morally reprehenable
that is.

As I said, he was rolling in doe, had a ful household staff including
chauffer, gardner,, house boys, cook, etc. and tought sending $50 per
month per minor child, no extras, no orthodontist, no college....not
even birthday gifts was fine just fine with him.
Do you find that odd, or just him being a sefish skunk.

Grace

LoriMc wrote:
Claim Guy wrote:
"Dusty" wrote in message
...
Court tells doctor to foot daughter's med school bill

Last Updated Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:59:20 EST


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ort050112.html
SURREY, B.C. - British Columbia's highest court has ruled that a
doctor must pay 50 per cent of the cost of putting his 23-year-old
daughter through medical school, referring to the money as "child
support."

The decision by the province's Court of Appeal could set a precedent
because previous decisions have decreed that parents with sufficient
means are responsible only for seeing their children through
undergraduate degree programs.

As far as the courts were concerned, adult children have been on
their own when it came to paying for postgraduate education in most
circumstances.

The doctor at the centre of the case, William Neufeld, is angry that
he must shell out as much as $22,000 a year to see his daughter
Jennifer through at least three years of medical school at the
University of Calgary.

"It's just very wrong to teach the children of this province that if
they happen to be the children of a person who makes more than an
average amount of money, they can just sit on their ass and do
absolutely nothing and expect to be paid for it, as long as they're
making good marks," he told the Vancouver Province Tuesday.

In making the ruling, one judge referred to Jennifer as "an exemplary
student."

The appeals court based its ruling on the fact that a separation
agreement Neufeld signed after splitting with Jennifer's mother
Barbara in 1999 did not set a cap on his educational support for
either Jennifer or her younger brother.

Barbara Neufeld's only income is from spousal support, the ruling
noted.

The ruling also took into account William Neufeld's income of
$170,000 a year, and said it might have come to a different
conclusion for a child "simply going to college because there is
nothing better to do."

A lawyer acting for Barbara Neufeld said adult children would be
unlikely to receive such support in future court rulings if they
took a long break between degrees or went back to school to pursue a
second career at some point later in life.


--
"The most terrifying words in the English language a
I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
--- Ronald Reagan


Bad ruling

Just another side you may not be aware of.

I realize this is Canada we are talking about, but here in the States a
person has to include their parents income on the application that is used
to evaluate need for financial assistance in order to receive
state/federal
grants and funding for a college education until the person reaches the
age
of 24.

This is just nuts for the students between the ages of 18 and 23 who have
entry level and minimum wage jobs. I can't count how many kids I've had
to
tell this to that pay all their own bills and have been totally on their
own
for years yet cannot receive any type of assistance because the parents
puts
the student into a high income bracket yet the parents are totally
unwilling
to help with the students education in any way.

Just last week I sent out suspension letters to students, some where ones
who couldn't keep their grades up due to working a full time job to pay
for
their education.

Why is it that some parents who have the income to help their kids out
don't? I'm not talking about supporting them fully or giving them a free
ride, but just helping them a bit so they can make something of
themselves
in life. Isn't that what it is supposed to be all about? What's the
matter
with some people don't they want what is best for their kids?

I could answer what's the matter, but I don't think you will want to hear
it. Actually, for even asking the question, you and me both know perfectly
well what the answer is.
"The times are a changin....." Yup, they sure are.

Who is ranting because she saw the tears and defeat in a students eyes
this
week who was turned down for assistance for this very reason.

Lori Mc

"LoriMc" wrote in message
...
Bob Whiteside wrote:
"LoriMc" wrote in message
...
Claim Guy wrote:
"Dusty" wrote in message
...
Court tells doctor to foot daughter's med school bill

Last Updated Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:59:20 EST



http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ort050112.html
SURREY, B.C. - British Columbia's highest court has ruled that a
doctor must pay 50 per cent of the cost of putting his 23-year-old
daughter through medical school, referring to the money as "child
support."

The decision by the province's Court of Appeal could set a
precedent because previous decisions have decreed that parents
with sufficient means are responsible only for seeing their
children through undergraduate degree programs.

As far as the courts were concerned, adult children have been on
their own when it came to paying for postgraduate education in most
circumstances.

The doctor at the centre of the case, William Neufeld, is angry
that he must shell out as much as $22,000 a year to see his
daughter Jennifer through at least three years of medical school
at the University of Calgary.

"It's just very wrong to teach the children of this province that
if they happen to be the children of a person who makes more than
an average amount of money, they can just sit on their ass and do
absolutely nothing and expect to be paid for it, as long as they're
making good marks," he told the Vancouver Province Tuesday.

In making the ruling, one judge referred to Jennifer as "an
exemplary student."

The appeals court based its ruling on the fact that a separation
agreement Neufeld signed after splitting with Jennifer's mother
Barbara in 1999 did not set a cap on his educational support for
either Jennifer or her younger brother.

Barbara Neufeld's only income is from spousal support, the ruling
noted.

The ruling also took into account William Neufeld's income of
$170,000 a year, and said it might have come to a different
conclusion for a child "simply going to college because there is
nothing better to do."

A lawyer acting for Barbara Neufeld said adult children would be
unlikely to receive such support in future court rulings if they
took a long break between degrees or went back to school to pursue
a second career at some point later in life.


--
"The most terrifying words in the English language a
I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
--- Ronald Reagan


Bad ruling

Just another side you may not be aware of.

I realize this is Canada we are talking about, but here in the
States a person has to include their parents income on the
application that is used to evaluate need for financial assistance
in order to receive
state/federal
grants and funding for a college education until the person reaches
the
age
of 24.

One of the exceptions to this rule is when a student has already
earned an undergraduate degree. The student is considered
"independent" when they are enrolling in a postgraduate or
professional degree program.


If a student has earned a bachelor's degree they are no longer eligible to
receive federal assistance independent or not.

That is not consistent with information you can confirm by contacting the
Department of Education. Here is a quote from the U.S. Department of
Education website section on "Graduate School" financial aid.

"Funding Your Graduate Education:

Federal Student Aid

…from the U.S. Department of Education (ED)

For information about types of federal student aid, eligibility criteria,
and repaying student loans, visit
www.studentaid.ed.gov

Federal student aid accounts for the largest percentage of aid received by
graduate and professional students, so be
sure to fill out the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) at
www.fafsa.ed.gov"

The details are - Graduate and professional students are considered
"independent." They are eligible for Stafford Loans, unsubsidized and
subsidized. The maximum loan per year is $18,500 with a lifetime maximum of
$138,500.

If the already graduated student takes additional undergrad courses, they
fall under the undergrad rules if they were born after 1/1/81 for the
2004-05 school year.

Related to the original post - the father is being asked to pay $22,000 per
year in CS to put his daughter through medical school. In the U.S. system
that amount of CS exceeds the average student's ability to borrow Federal
funds to finance their ongoing education. Perhaps the court in its wisdom
should order the medical student to pay her father back the CS amount out of
future profits similar to how the wife of a medical student gets alimony
from future income for supporting her husband's medical school education
pursuits.

wrote:
The problem with the entitlement, or socialist way of thinking is that
those
who think something is "owed" to them, rarely are worth a bucket of warm
spit.
If one has to work toward something, it is more likely they will actually
want to achieve it, will treasure it more highly and make the time spend
attaining it more useful.

Those forcing decisions on others should be ready, willing and able to
finance those decisions as well, not to even go into the little problem of
individual rights and personal freedom.
Phil #3

Trust me, Phil, i'm no where near being a socialist. I'm a
consertvative Republican. And I view "entitlements" as a code word for
welfare.

However, as you can see from my post I am very recentful about having
been assigned to the ranks of the EXchildren after my parent's divorce.

The one thing I agree about is that those who force things on others
should be ready, wiling and able to finance those decisionsas well, not
even to go into the little problem of individual rights and personal
freedoms.

Trust me when I tell you that when my father left our family he forced
maximum inconvenience on those he left behind. If he decided that his
individual rights and freedoms preimpted his
obligations.responsibiiltes to the chilodren he sired in his first
marriage he should have thought twice about how morally reprehenable
that is.

As I said, he was rolling in doe, had a full household staff including
chauffer, gardner,, house boys, cook, etc. and the thought sending $50 per
month per minor child, no extras, no orthodontist, no college....not
even birthday gifts was fine just fine with him.
Do you find that odd, or just him being a sefish skunk.

Grace

I just think it kinda reflects the times. Not totally, but in large part.
And yes, it is a sad state.

Bob Whiteside wrote:
"LoriMc" wrote in message

Bad ruling

Just another side you may not be aware of.

I realize this is Canada we are talking about, but here in the
States a person has to include their parents income on the
application that is used to evaluate need for financial assistance
in order to receive
state/federal
grants and funding for a college education until the person reaches
the
age
of 24.

One of the exceptions to this rule is when a student has already
earned an undergraduate degree. The student is considered
"independent" when they are enrolling in a postgraduate or
professional degree program.


If a student has earned a bachelor's degree they are no longer
eligible to receive federal assistance independent or not.

That is not consistent with information you can confirm by contacting
the Department of Education. Here is a quote from the U.S.
Department of Education website section on "Graduate School"
financial aid.

I don't have to contact them Bob I process Pell for a living.


"Funding Your Graduate Education:

Federal Student Aid

.from the U.S. Department of Education (ED)

For information about types of federal student aid, eligibility
criteria, and repaying student loans, visit
www.studentaid.ed.gov

Federal student aid accounts for the largest percentage of aid
received by graduate and professional students, so be
sure to fill out the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA)
at www.fafsa.ed.gov"

The details are - Graduate and professional students are considered
"independent." They are eligible for **Stafford Loans, unsubsidized and
subsidized. The maximum loan per year is $18,500 with a lifetime
maximum of $138,500**

Note the word loan here. Pell isn't a loan, it is a grant. Loans have to
be repaid Pell doesn't.


If the already graduated student takes additional undergrad courses,
they fall under the undergrad rules if they were born after 1/1/81
for the 2004-05 school year.

Note the Date of birth criteria...if a person is born in 1981 they are 24
years of age.
As I stated earlier once a person is 24 they are considered independent.

What about the ones 18-23. Students have to include the parents income on
the FASFA (pell) until they are 24 years of age. So the kids 18-23 are SOOL
if the parent knocks them into a greater income bracket and then refuses to
help in any way.

The student can be granted an appeal to go into a different program if they
can show the current degree they have isn't enough to financially support
them. Most people with an associates degree seeking this type of appeal are
not under the age of 24 a few may be but not many. If a person has a
bachelors degree all bets are off for Pell assistance.


Related to the original post - the father is being asked to pay
$22,000 per year in CS to put his daughter through medical school.
In the U.S. system that amount of CS exceeds the average student's
ability to borrow Federal funds to finance their ongoing education.
Perhaps the court in its wisdom should order the medical student to
pay her father back the CS amount out of future profits similar to
how the wife of a medical student gets alimony from future income for
supporting her husband's medical school education pursuits.

Sad, my child's father nor I were in no way financially able to totally pay
our daughters way through University. We are divorced and have been for 20
years. He voluntarily continued to pay CS on her from 18 until she
graduated at 21 with her bachelors. I gave every dime of it and the moneys
he sent for her younger brother to her for school expenses. She worked 30
hours a week and went to classes full time. We all 3 worked together to give
her the best. Is this so much to ask of a parent?

"LoriMc" wrote in message
...
Bob Whiteside wrote:
"LoriMc" wrote in message

Bad ruling

Just another side you may not be aware of.

I realize this is Canada we are talking about, but here in the
States a person has to include their parents income on the
application that is used to evaluate need for financial assistance
in order to receive
state/federal
grants and funding for a college education until the person reaches
the
age
of 24.

One of the exceptions to this rule is when a student has already
earned an undergraduate degree. The student is considered
"independent" when they are enrolling in a postgraduate or
professional degree program.


If a student has earned a bachelor's degree they are no longer
eligible to receive federal assistance independent or not.

That is not consistent with information you can confirm by contacting
the Department of Education. Here is a quote from the U.S.
Department of Education website section on "Graduate School"
financial aid.

I don't have to contact them Bob I process Pell for a living.


"Funding Your Graduate Education:

Federal Student Aid

.from the U.S. Department of Education (ED)

For information about types of federal student aid, eligibility
criteria, and repaying student loans, visit
www.studentaid.ed.gov

Federal student aid accounts for the largest percentage of aid
received by graduate and professional students, so be
sure to fill out the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA)
at www.fafsa.ed.gov"

The details are - Graduate and professional students are considered
"independent." They are eligible for **Stafford Loans, unsubsidized and
subsidized. The maximum loan per year is $18,500 with a lifetime
maximum of $138,500**

Note the word loan here. Pell isn't a loan, it is a grant. Loans have to
be repaid Pell doesn't.


If the already graduated student takes additional undergrad courses,
they fall under the undergrad rules if they were born after 1/1/81
for the 2004-05 school year.

Note the Date of birth criteria...if a person is born in 1981 they are 24
years of age.
As I stated earlier once a person is 24 they are considered independent.

What about the ones 18-23. Students have to include the parents income on
the FASFA (pell) until they are 24 years of age. So the kids 18-23 are
SOOL if the parent knocks them into a greater income bracket and then
refuses to help in any way.

The student can be granted an appeal to go into a different program if
they can show the current degree they have isn't enough to financially
support them. Most people with an associates degree seeking this type of
appeal are not under the age of 24 a few may be but not many. If a person
has a bachelors degree all bets are off for Pell assistance.


Related to the original post - the father is being asked to pay
$22,000 per year in CS to put his daughter through medical school.
In the U.S. system that amount of CS exceeds the average student's
ability to borrow Federal funds to finance their ongoing education.
Perhaps the court in its wisdom should order the medical student to
pay her father back the CS amount out of future profits similar to
how the wife of a medical student gets alimony from future income for
supporting her husband's medical school education pursuits.

Sad, my child's father nor I were in no way financially able to totally
pay our daughters way through University. We are divorced and have been
for 20 years. He voluntarily continued to pay CS on her from 18 until she
graduated at 21 with her bachelors. I gave every dime of it and the
moneys he sent for her younger brother to her for school expenses. She
worked 30 hours a week and went to classes full time. We all 3 worked
together to give her the best. Is this so much to ask of a parent?

Ah, but YOU made the decision to do that. YOU didn't have it forced on you.
The objection I have on this issue is when noncustodial parents aer FORCED
to give this type of support. Married parents aren't forced to do so.
Custodial parents aren't forced to do so. But noncustodial parents can be
forced to provide their children with a college education. Now it looks as
if they may be forced to pay for graduate degrees, too. That's just wrong.

wrote in message
ups.com...
The problem with the entitlement, or socialist way of thinking is that
those
who think something is "owed" to them, rarely are worth a bucket of
warm
spit.
If one has to work toward something, it is more likely they will
actually
want to achieve it, will treasure it more highly and make the time
spend
attaining it more useful.
Those forcing decisions on others should be ready, willing and able to
finance those decisions as well, not to even go into the little problem
of
individual rights and personal freedom.
Phil #3

Trust me, Phil, i'm no where near being a socialist. I'm a
consertvative Republican. And I view "entitlements" as a code word for
welfare.

However, as you can see from my post I am very recentful about having
been assigned to the ranks of the EXchildren after my parent's divorce.

So if your parents hadn't been divorced, it would be ok for them to decide
not to fund your education?
Is it that you feel, as the courts sometimes do, that divorced parents are
not capable of making their own decisions in regard to their children?


The one thing I agree about is that those who force things on others
should be ready, wiling and able to finance those decisionsas well, not
even to go into the little problem of individual rights and personal
freedoms.

Trust me when I tell you that when my father left our family he forced
maximum inconvenience on those he left behind. If he decided that his
individual rights and freedoms preimpted his
obligations.responsibiiltes to the chilodren he sired in his first
marriage he should have thought twice about how morally reprehenable
that is.

Not knowing, I can't, and won't comment on your specific case. Empirical
evidence is of little value in establishing rules for the many.


As I said, he was rolling in doe, had a ful household staff including
chauffer, gardner,, house boys, cook, etc. and tought sending $50 per
month per minor child, no extras, no orthodontist, no college....not
even birthday gifts was fine just fine with him.
Do you find that odd, or just him being a sefish skunk.

What I think is that if they were divorced and he was paying support as
ordered, what he did with the remainder of his money is his business. If
what you say is true, it doesn't seem that I agreed with his choices but who
rightfully posesses the ability to decide for any adult on what they should
spend their money?
The only way I see that one can support the idea of forcing *some* parents
to finance their adult children's choices is also to force *all* parents to
do the same, whether they can afford it or not. That means that all
education, to whatever degree and for whatever reason the "children" want,
should be supplied free of charge. This can only come at the expense of the
taxpayer or the parents and since many parents cannot afford it, that leaves
a welfare type of arrangement in the form of taxes, to support those adults
who seek entitlement for their choice.
Phil #3


Grace

teachrmama wrote:
snipped as this is getting way to long


Sad, my child's father nor I were in no way financially able to
totally pay our daughters way through University. We are divorced
and have been for 20 years. He voluntarily continued to pay CS on
her from 18 until she graduated at 21 with her bachelors. I gave
every dime of it and the moneys he sent for her younger brother to
her for school expenses. She worked 30 hours a week and went to
classes full time. We all 3 worked together to give her the best. Is this
so much to ask of a parent?

Ah, but YOU made the decision to do that. YOU didn't have it forced
on you. The objection I have on this issue is when noncustodial
parents aer FORCED to give this type of support. Married parents
aren't forced to do so. Custodial parents aren't forced to do so. But
noncustodial parents can be forced to provide their children with
a college education. Now it looks as if they may be forced to pay
for graduate degrees, too. That's just wrong.

Your correct that was a choice we both made. And one I can't understand any
parent not wanting to make as long as the student was giving it their best.

Lori Mc

"LoriMc" wrote in message
...
teachrmama wrote:
snipped as this is getting way to long


Sad, my child's father nor I were in no way financially able to
totally pay our daughters way through University. We are divorced
and have been for 20 years. He voluntarily continued to pay CS on
her from 18 until she graduated at 21 with her bachelors. I gave
every dime of it and the moneys he sent for her younger brother to
her for school expenses. She worked 30 hours a week and went to
classes full time. We all 3 worked together to give her the best. Is
this so much to ask of a parent?

Ah, but YOU made the decision to do that. YOU didn't have it forced
on you. The objection I have on this issue is when noncustodial
parents aer FORCED to give this type of support. Married parents
aren't forced to do so. Custodial parents aren't forced to do so. But
noncustodial parents can be forced to provide their children with
a college education. Now it looks as if they may be forced to pay
for graduate degrees, too. That's just wrong.

Your correct that was a choice we both made. And one I can't understand
any parent not wanting to make as long as the student was giving it their
best.

But the fact that you can't understand it does not mean that those who
choose not to do so should be forced to anyway. If everyone were so forced,
at least the system would be equal for all. But when it is only one segment
of the population that is forced, then there is something wrong with the
system.