5 & 7 YOs Dealing with death

"Brandy Kurtz" wrote in message
om...
Thank you very much everyone for advice, and condolences. We did not
take the kids to the viewing. We did take them to the funeral and
graveside service. They took it all very well. I did end up sitting in
the churchs nursery with the baby, as she thought it was much too
quiet in the main part. My daughter was scribbling pictures to put in
Pap's coffin during the funeral, pictures of her Pap and her ferret in
heaven together..Our son is the fourth Edward, and he thought it his
place to stay by daddy's side the entire time, and be *a man* as he
put it.

But do remind him that he's still a little boy and the best role he can have
in the family is to be a little boy. That's his job.

I just finished a wonderful book on helping children grieve today...and one
of the things I came away from it was that children will pattern their grief
responses on what they see around them. It's important -- especially for
boys -- to see the adults around them expressing their feelings, often going
first in discussions (like, 'I was thinking about Pap today while I was
cleaning the ferret's cage -- it reminded me of how much Pap liked to have
the ferrett crawl inside his shirt because it tickled'...which helps prompt
the child recall a memory, too)....and it's important for boys to see that
men don't always 'have to be strong'...or not cry. One of the best 'gifts'
your husband can give your son is for him to see Daddy be sad.

We did go to see his grandmother today, and as we were leaving we
said, "come on, give hugs and kisses". Eddie said, "This will be alot
faster now, because pap isn't here". Ok, *very* akward silence, but
everyone understands(i hope). He has a terrible tendancy to stick his
foot in his mouth! Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers.

Nah, not stick his foot in his mouth at all -- he's a *child* and responding
as a child will, especially a young child. I'm sure everyone understood.
Remember, children react to grief and loss differently than adults do. Now,
if your 37 year old cousin had said that, it would have been rude. For a
little boy to say it is just child's honesty...and the fact that they 'live
in the moment' and haven't yet quite figured out how to project and
anticipate what reactions might be to things they say...their 'filters'
aren't in place yet, if you will.

Leah
______
In Memory of David, 11/10/61 - 5/21/03
Beloved Husband, Father and Heart's Companion


Brandy

"Jeff Utz" wrote in message
...

"Leah Adezio" wrote in message
...

"Brandy Kurtz" wrote in message
om...

Our son is the fourth Edward, and he thought it his
place to stay by daddy's side the entire time, and be *a man* as he
put it.

But do remind him that he's still a little boy and the best role he can
have
in the family is to be a little boy. That's his job.

That's one of his jobs. Another is to grow up. If standing by his dad's
side
helps him understand some adult things (which are also child things,
because
death affects kids too), then so be it.

True, but what one does not want is for a child to feel he has to be 'the
man of the family'...especially at such a young age. That is not the
child's job.

The night David died, my *17* year old turned to me and said 'I guess I'm
the 'man of the family' now.' My response was, 'Maybe, but *I'm* still the
*woman*.' (and it was said with a small smile -- I knew what his meaning
was and didn't want to belittle it....)

i.e., it's *my* job to look out for the well being of the children...to
support them...to provide for them. My son was talking about getting a job
to help support us (which is not financially necessary). I thanked him,
reassured him that financially, we will be fine and if he wants to get a
part time job, he may...but that money should be partially set aside for his
future expenses for college as well as having some 'mad money' for himself.

I had explained to both my sons that they *were* going to be called upon to
be more helpful around the house than they had to be in the past -- David
was retired and a SAHD -- I work full time. They, to be honest, haven't had
to do a lot of chores before this, and they aren't overburdened now, but I
do leave a daily list of 2-3 small things for them to do -- asking one to
run the vacuum, making sure the dishwasher's run and clean dishes put away,
doing a load of laundry each...things like that. They're old enough and
responsible enough to understand that if they spend about a half hour each
on these things, then when I get home, we have time for us to be together
and do things they want to do rather than me having to spend my evening time
doing all the housework.

So far, it's been working well with few conflicts. I've been trying very
hard to make this a gradual process and not 'toss them into the deep end of
the pool', if you know what I mean.


I just finished a wonderful book on helping children grieve today...and
one
of the things I came away from it was that children will pattern their
grief
responses on what they see around them. It's important -- especially
for
boys -- to see the adults around them expressing their feelings, often
going
first in discussions (like, 'I was thinking about Pap today while I was
cleaning the ferret's cage -- it reminded me of how much Pap liked to
have
the ferrett crawl inside his shirt because it tickled'...which helps
prompt
the child recall a memory, too)....and it's important for boys to see
that
men don't always 'have to be strong'...or not cry. One of the best
'gifts'
your husband can give your son is for him to see Daddy be sad.

Yeap.

It also gives the child a chance to talk about the loved one, something
that
children sometimes are not encouraged to do after a loved one's death.

Exactly. And that's the best way to help a child truly integrate and
understand the loss. And as the immediate shock and activity passes, it
will become easier to focus on the person's life instead of their
death...and the memories of the person's *life* are what really helps them
live on within each of us.

We did go to see his grandmother today, and as we were leaving we
said, "come on, give hugs and kisses". Eddie said, "This will be alot
faster now, because pap isn't here". Ok, *very* akward silence, but
everyone understands(i hope). He has a terrible tendancy to stick his
foot in his mouth! Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers.

Nah, not stick his foot in his mouth at all -- he's a *child* and
responding
as a child will, especially a young child. I'm sure everyone
understood.
Remember, children react to grief and loss differently than adults do.
Now,
if your 37 year old cousin had said that, it would have been rude. For
a
little boy to say it is just child's honesty...and the fact that they
'live
in the moment' and haven't yet quite figured out how to project and
anticipate what reactions might be to things they say...their 'filters'
aren't in place yet, if you will.

In a way, it was also a good thing to say. The grandfather's body may have
been in the coffin, but his life was gone. The funeral is for the living
(the dead are already gone by the time the funeral rolls along), to say
goodbye and to begin adjusting to life without the newly departed. Part of
that is realizing that there are adjustments to be made, even if those
adjustments mean some things happen faster than before.

Every year at the hospital I worked, there is a memorial service for the
children who died under the care of the hospital's physicians. Part of
that
is the poem, "The elephant in the room"

There's an elephant in the room.
It is large and squatting, so it is hard to get around it.
Yet we squeeze by with, "How are you?" and "I'm fine," and a thousand
other
forms of trivial chatter. We talk about the weather. We talk about work.
We talk about everything else, except the elephant in the room.

There's an elephant in the room.
We all know it's there. We are thinking about the elephant as we talk
together.
It is constantly on our minds. For, you see, it is a very large elephant.
It has hurt us all.

But we don't talk about the elephant in the room.
Oh, please say his (her) name.
Oh, please say his (her) name again.
Oh, please, let's talk about the elephant in the room.

For if we talk about his (her) death, perhaps we can talk about his (her)
life.
Can I say his (her) name to you and not have you look away?
For if I cannot, then you are leaving me....
alone....
in a room....
with an elephant.

I know this poem well...and it's true. People are well-meaning when they
*don't* discuss the loved one, thinking they are sparing us pain, but it's
harder *not* to discuss them and talk about them...and we *need* to do it
when we are ready to do so. When the elephant is ignored, it feels as if
the loved one is forgotten...and that's the last thing we want.

There's also a level of discomfort in knowing that yes, when we talk about
them, we sometimes cry...but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Me, I'm
*very* fortunate that my close friends are willing to let me talk about
David, are willing to listen and will hold me when I cry. Right now, my
'elephant in the room' is about the size of a healthy sheepdog because of
this. small grin

And I can manage a sheepdog.....

Your points are well taken.

Leah
______
In Memory of David, 11/10/61 - 5/21/03
Beloved Husband, Father, Heart's Companion

"Brandy Kurtz" wrote in message
om...
"Jeff Utz" wrote in message
...
"Leah Adezio" wrote in message
...

"Brandy Kurtz" wrote in message
om...
Thank you very much everyone for advice, and condolences. We did not
take the kids to the viewing. We did take them to the funeral and
graveside service. They took it all very well. I did end up sitting
in
the churchs nursery with the baby, as she thought it was much too
quiet in the main part. My daughter was scribbling pictures to put
in
Pap's coffin during the funeral, pictures of her Pap and her ferret
in
heaven together..Our son is the fourth Edward, and he thought it
his
place to stay by daddy's side the entire time, and be *a man* as he
put it.

But do remind him that he's still a little boy and the best role he
can
have
in the family is to be a little boy. That's his job.

That's one of his jobs. Another is to grow up. If standing by his dad's
side
helps him understand some adult things (which are also child things,
because
death affects kids too), then so be it.


He knows he's still our little boy. As soon as we got outside he
started acting like his silly little self again... I was very proud
of him during the service, if you knew him, you would see that it was
a *big* step for him.

As a fellow parent of an ADHDer (now 17, but he had just turned 7 when my
mom died, which was the first death of someone close to him that we dealt
with), I hear you. Boy, do I hear you.

I just finished a wonderful book on helping children grieve
today...and
one
of the things I came away from it was that children will pattern their
grief
responses on what they see around them. It's important -- especially
for
boys -- to see the adults around them expressing their feelings, often
going
first in discussions (like, 'I was thinking about Pap today while I
was
cleaning the ferret's cage -- it reminded me of how much Pap liked to
have
the ferrett crawl inside his shirt because it tickled'...which helps
prompt
the child recall a memory, too)....and it's important for boys to see
that
men don't always 'have to be strong'...or not cry. One of the best
'gifts'
your husband can give your son is for him to see Daddy be sad.

Yeap.

It also gives the child a chance to talk about the loved one, something
that
children sometimes are not encouraged to do after a loved one's death.

Eddie doesn't have as many memories of his pap as most kids would. His
pap has been sick for Eddie's whole life. Eddie has a suppressed
immune system, so he is *always* sick, and couldn't be around his pap
much growing up. But when he could be there, Pap sure made up for the
missed time..)
I was crying at the funeral, and Eddie took my hand and told
me.."Mommy don't be sad, because pap is in heaven, and he can breathe
now". I will encourage him to remanice more about his pap. I really
hadn't realized the importance of it. Thank you for the suggestions!

Another reason I mentioned it was because when my now 13 year old and I were
talking last weekend, he mentioned that he doesn't have a lot of memories
about Mom, because he wasn't quite 4 when she died...and in turn, made me
realize that I don't have many memories of my paternal grandfather -- I was
the same age as YS when my Pop died. We have talked alot about my Mom in
the years since she died, but it reminded me that there are still more
stories to share to help keep her memory alive in him.


We did go to see his grandmother today, and as we were leaving we
said, "come on, give hugs and kisses". Eddie said, "This will be
alot
faster now, because pap isn't here". Ok, *very* akward silence, but
everyone understands(i hope). He has a terrible tendancy to stick
his
foot in his mouth! Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers.

Nah, not stick his foot in his mouth at all -- he's a *child* and
responding
as a child will, especially a young child. I'm sure everyone
understood.
Remember, children react to grief and loss differently than adults do.
Now,
if your 37 year old cousin had said that, it would have been rude.
For a
little boy to say it is just child's honesty...and the fact that they
'live
in the moment' and haven't yet quite figured out how to project and
anticipate what reactions might be to things they say...their
'filters'
aren't in place yet, if you will.

In a way, it was also a good thing to say. The grandfather's body may
have
been in the coffin, but his life was gone. The funeral is for the living
(the dead are already gone by the time the funeral rolls along), to say
goodbye and to begin adjusting to life without the newly departed. Part
of
that is realizing that there are adjustments to be made, even if those
adjustments mean some things happen faster than before.

It felt ackward to us because we have never dealt with death as kids.
We were shunned from the entire process, but that did make us see that
the children should be included also.

Me, too...which was why I was so insistent that my kids have a say in how
much *they* wanted to participate. I didn't want them to feel the way I
felt -- which was, even as a very young child, shut out because I didn't get
a chance to say good bye to Pop. I had a lot of disgreements with my sibs
and my dad about it when Mom was dying, because they thought young children
had no place at a funeral.

See Eddie has adhd, so in any
circumstance we don;'t know if he's just being a kid or just being
Eddie. Do you know what I mean? It's hard to explain on here.

Like I said, BTDT...own the entire wardrobe.




.. He has no problems talking about it. It's good to get
someone else's prospective, we just weren't very sure of ourselves.
Wondering if we had made the irhgt decisions.

Sounds like you did just fine to me.

Leah
______
In Memory of David, 11/10/61 - 5/21/03
Beloved Husband, Father, Heart's Companion

"Brandy Kurtz" wrote in message
. com...
"Jeff Utz" wrote in message
...
"Leah Adezio" wrote in message
...

"Brandy Kurtz" wrote in message
om...
Thank you very much everyone for advice, and condolences. We did not
take the kids to the viewing. We did take them to the funeral and
graveside service. They took it all very well. I did end up sitting
in
the churchs nursery with the baby, as she thought it was much too
quiet in the main part. My daughter was scribbling pictures to put
in
Pap's coffin during the funeral, pictures of her Pap and her ferret
in
heaven together..Our son is the fourth Edward, and he thought it
his
place to stay by daddy's side the entire time, and be *a man* as he
put it.

But do remind him that he's still a little boy and the best role he
can
have
in the family is to be a little boy. That's his job.

That's one of his jobs. Another is to grow up. If standing by his dad's
side
helps him understand some adult things (which are also child things,
because
death affects kids too), then so be it.


He knows he's still our little boy. As soon as we got outside he
started acting like his silly little self again... I was very proud
of him during the service, if you knew him, you would see that it was
a *big* step for him.

As a fellow parent of an ADHDer (now 17, but he had just turned 7 when my
mom died, which was the first death of someone close to him that we dealt
with), I hear you. Boy, do I hear you.

I just finished a wonderful book on helping children grieve
today...and
one
of the things I came away from it was that children will pattern their
grief
responses on what they see around them. It's important -- especially
for
boys -- to see the adults around them expressing their feelings, often
going
first in discussions (like, 'I was thinking about Pap today while I
was
cleaning the ferret's cage -- it reminded me of how much Pap liked to
have
the ferrett crawl inside his shirt because it tickled'...which helps
prompt
the child recall a memory, too)....and it's important for boys to see
that
men don't always 'have to be strong'...or not cry. One of the best
'gifts'
your husband can give your son is for him to see Daddy be sad.

Yeap.

It also gives the child a chance to talk about the loved one, something
that
children sometimes are not encouraged to do after a loved one's death.

Eddie doesn't have as many memories of his pap as most kids would. His
pap has been sick for Eddie's whole life. Eddie has a suppressed
immune system, so he is *always* sick, and couldn't be around his pap
much growing up. But when he could be there, Pap sure made up for the
missed time..)
I was crying at the funeral, and Eddie took my hand and told
me.."Mommy don't be sad, because pap is in heaven, and he can breathe
now". I will encourage him to remanice more about his pap. I really
hadn't realized the importance of it. Thank you for the suggestions!

Another reason I mentioned it was because when my now 13 year old and I were
talking last weekend, he mentioned that he doesn't have a lot of memories
about Mom, because he wasn't quite 4 when she died...and in turn, made me
realize that I don't have many memories of my paternal grandfather -- I was
the same age as YS when my Pop died. We have talked alot about my Mom in
the years since she died, but it reminded me that there are still more
stories to share to help keep her memory alive in him.


We did go to see his grandmother today, and as we were leaving we
said, "come on, give hugs and kisses". Eddie said, "This will be
alot
faster now, because pap isn't here". Ok, *very* akward silence, but
everyone understands(i hope). He has a terrible tendancy to stick
his
foot in his mouth! Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers.

Nah, not stick his foot in his mouth at all -- he's a *child* and
responding
as a child will, especially a young child. I'm sure everyone
understood.
Remember, children react to grief and loss differently than adults do.
Now,
if your 37 year old cousin had said that, it would have been rude.
For a
little boy to say it is just child's honesty...and the fact that they
'live
in the moment' and haven't yet quite figured out how to project and
anticipate what reactions might be to things they say...their
'filters'
aren't in place yet, if you will.

In a way, it was also a good thing to say. The grandfather's body may
have
been in the coffin, but his life was gone. The funeral is for the living
(the dead are already gone by the time the funeral rolls along), to say
goodbye and to begin adjusting to life without the newly departed. Part
of
that is realizing that there are adjustments to be made, even if those
adjustments mean some things happen faster than before.

It felt ackward to us because we have never dealt with death as kids.
We were shunned from the entire process, but that did make us see that
the children should be included also.

Me, too...which was why I was so insistent that my kids have a say in how
much *they* wanted to participate. I didn't want them to feel the way I
felt -- which was, even as a very young child, shut out because I didn't get
a chance to say good bye to Pop. I had a lot of disgreements with my sibs
and my dad about it when Mom was dying, because they thought young children
had no place at a funeral.

See Eddie has adhd, so in any
circumstance we don;'t know if he's just being a kid or just being
Eddie. Do you know what I mean? It's hard to explain on here.

Like I said, BTDT...own the entire wardrobe.




. He has no problems talking about it. It's good to get
someone else's prospective, we just weren't very sure of ourselves.
Wondering if we had made the irhgt decisions.

Sounds like you did just fine to me.

Leah
______
In Memory of David, 11/10/61 - 5/21/03
Beloved Husband, Father, Heart's Companion







Wow Leah, thanks alot. Your kids sure are lucky...

Brandy
P.S. Your posts are not showing up on my newreader. Hmmm..only on AOL.