Prime example of why I hate other parents...

In article .com, sha68
says...


I have to say I understand both sides of the children in restaurants
arguement.

I have five kids and we regularly eat in restaurants with them all. ten
years ago we had just the four all under 8 and we still took them to
restaurants both family and regular restaurants and sometimes it was ok
other it was horrible and we left. Its not so hit and miss now the
girls are 18, 15, 14, 11, and nearly 3.

Yep - doing the restaurant thing with kid, doing your best, but being willing to
leave if it's not working out is exactly the right tack to take.


But never did we forget that we were the adults at the table and not at
a family 'do' where everyone in the room had a connection and tolerance
to bad behaviour. Every person eating in any situation have a right
not to be as disturbed as far as possible, but in return should show
tolerance to the families trying to enforce good behaviour from unruly
children. I have seen families showing manners I have felt were
disgusting but also thought those kids can't learn better restaurant
manners without going out to eat.

Tolerance is a great word for this topic everyone one of us could cite
a story of bad behaviour in this type of situation and not just from
our own children but other families as well.

I've said before (maybe I should make it Banty's Life Fact of Life Number Three)
that tolerance and consideration are but two sides to the same coin. To be
considerate, one has to tolerate the changes one makes to one's own behavior or
situation for the sake of others; to be tolerant, one has to consider the
others' situations as to what they need to do that doesn't suit oneself.

When folks complains to others about tolerance or consideration, they usually
aren't getting it. Most situations require *both* from those present to some
degree or other. Some reasonable standard has to be sought. That such a
reasonable standard may not be perfectly defined, or not give perfect permission
to some folks to behave however they want, or not give perfect consideration to
some other folks who have a standard that they never be bothered, doesn't change
that it's true. Life.


I personally don't agree with young family areas within restaurants for
several reasons, the turnover of tables is so high in these areas the
cleaning is very much a quick wipe over and not I would say to a high
standard (clean table messy floor is not my idea of fun) but also I
believe that children can learn so much from circumstances and
enviroment that eating in normal areas or 'posher' restaurants is a key
part of table manner teaching and social graces.

I hate the kiddie ghetto for both those reasons. I don't care for the
concentrated kids, which is even worse for the "permission" for poor behavior
some parents think it means. Even when my own kid was small! And he'd never
learn decent behavior in that kind of segregated situation.


I think as parents we can be blinkered to how our famillies look when
out in public i look at my children and on the whole they look to me
well behaved with good manners but that is by my standards other people
may see them as brats with manners of swine. While I think my view is
the only one that really counts I do try to see my world in the way
others do. When I look in so to speak at my family we are quite loud,
not screaming but boystrus (hope thats spelt right) we debate and laugh
and generally enjoy our company but how many others have we disturbed
by just being ourselves????

Maybe not. Mirth is different from other kinds of disruption. It's just that,
just because that family or couple over there is laughing, doens't mean those
babies on those other two tables are OK to scream. It's not all or nothing.

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm

Banty wrote:
In article .com, sha68
says...

I have to say I understand both sides of the children in restaurants
arguement.

I have five kids and we regularly eat in restaurants with them all. ten
years ago we had just the four all under 8 and we still took them to
restaurants both family and regular restaurants and sometimes it was ok
other it was horrible and we left. Its not so hit and miss now the
girls are 18, 15, 14, 11, and nearly 3.

When we were traveling, we were often restricted in our ability to
leave the restaurant, but one of us would take the child that was
unruly outside.

Yep - doing the restaurant thing with kid, doing your best, but being willing to
leave if it's not working out is exactly the right tack to take.

But never did we forget that we were the adults at the table and not at
a family 'do' where everyone in the room had a connection and tolerance
to bad behaviour. Every person eating in any situation have a right
not to be as disturbed as far as possible, but in return should show
tolerance to the families trying to enforce good behaviour from unruly
children. I have seen families showing manners I have felt were
disgusting but also thought those kids can't learn better restaurant
manners without going out to eat.

Tolerance is a great word for this topic everyone one of us could cite
a story of bad behaviour in this type of situation and not just from
our own children but other families as well.

I've said before (maybe I should make it Banty's Life Fact of Life Number Three)
that tolerance and consideration are but two sides to the same coin. To be
considerate, one has to tolerate the changes one makes to one's own behavior or
situation for the sake of others; to be tolerant, one has to consider the
others' situations as to what they need to do that doesn't suit oneself.

When folks complains to others about tolerance or consideration, they usually
aren't getting it. Most situations require *both* from those present to some
degree or other. Some reasonable standard has to be sought. That such a
reasonable standard may not be perfectly defined, or not give perfect permission
to some folks to behave however they want, or not give perfect consideration to
some other folks who have a standard that they never be bothered, doesn't change
that it's true. Life.


I personally don't agree with young family areas within restaurants for
several reasons, the turnover of tables is so high in these areas the
cleaning is very much a quick wipe over and not I would say to a high
standard (clean table messy floor is not my idea of fun) but also I
believe that children can learn so much from circumstances and
enviroment that eating in normal areas or 'posher' restaurants is a key
part of table manner teaching and social graces.

I think if the floor is messy, that the parents should tip more and/or
try to pick up some of the larger pieces of litter . And I wouldn't
go back to a place where I observed that the floors weren't being
cleaned appropriately. Even at someplace like Bob Evans, they can do
that.

I hate the kiddie ghetto for both those reasons. I don't care for the
concentrated kids, which is even worse for the "permission" for poor behavior
some parents think it means. Even when my own kid was small! And he'd never
learn decent behavior in that kind of segregated situation.

My dh once commented that we should ask for the smoking section
because there were less kids there.

I think as parents we can be blinkered to how our famillies look when
out in public i look at my children and on the whole they look to me
well behaved with good manners but that is by my standards other people
may see them as brats with manners of swine. While I think my view is
the only one that really counts I do try to see my world in the way
others do. When I look in so to speak at my family we are quite loud,
not screaming but boystrus (hope thats spelt right) we debate and laugh
and generally enjoy our company but how many others have we disturbed
by just being ourselves????

Maybe not. Mirth is different from other kinds of disruption. It's just that,
just because that family or couple over there is laughing, doens't mean those
babies on those other two tables are OK to scream. It's not all or nothing.

I don't think that being loud even with laughter is acceptable. We
were in a restaurant a couple of weeks ago, and there was a big group
of about 6 couples. One of the women had a loud and quite irritating
laugh, and it was EXTREMELY annoying - much more annoying than
anything child could have done. And there were children present at
other tables, and they were quiet and well behaved.

Once the noise level is ratcheted up (and this is why I hate sports
bar type places with music, and several TV sets, but you can't hear
any of them because people are laughing and talking so loudly at the
bar in order to be heard over the music that you practically have to
conduct a conversation in sign language), then everyone starts talking
louder and louder.

So an occasional loud laugh is OK, but loud conversation and laughter
is as annoying (or maybe more annoying) than a crying baby, because I
can sympathize with the parents of the baby, and I have no sympathy
for loud adults.

"Caledonia" wrote in
oups.com:

Er -- I think for some folks, Denny's is a Big Deal -- I
realize I'm wading into deep water here, but truly, I feel
that a public space is a public space. (Okay, I'm thinking
of my parents, who could only afford, post-retirement, a
dinner out at Denny's once in a blue moon. For them, it was
an intimate dinner -- which says something about wages in
the US that's pitiful, but hey, such is life) Sure,
whenever you sit in the playplace part of McD's there's an
expectation of what you'll get (then again, fast food is
typically pretty expensive, on the whole), but at a
sit-down restaurant, it's a public space and for me, the
unspoken rules (aka, 'think of it from the other guy's
perspective') apply. It's the same thing as not letting
kids run around WalMart, nor letting them run around
Bloomingdales, or Saks. It's all the same, really. Or
expecting reasonable behavior, whether seated in the first
class or coach sections. Whether it's an inexpensive venue
for you isn't comparable to whether it's a
casual/inexpensive venue for the other customers.

i wouldn't permit running around in *any* restaurant, fast
food or not, nor in any store. i also don't go for playing in
any restaurant. quiet activities like drawing, reading or
writing are fine. no standing on the seat, no loud voices &
certainly no whining or screaming.
however, we have different 'rules' for Wendy's vs someplace
like Applebee's. in Wendy's it's ok to blow your straw wrapper
at daddy or mommy. at a sit-down restaurant, it is not. even a
2 year old can grasp that they are different situations &
behave appropriately (at least mine could).
lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

lkfraley wrote:
Seems to me that the girl is going to get whatever the animal has
whether they kill it or not, so what's the point of killing it I
wonder. Is it just so they can test it for rabies? Won't that be
apparent eventually anyway? Like I said before, the animal may be dead
now, but that won't change the outcome of the girl, will it???

For certain animals, the incubation period for rabies is short and
well-known. You could quaratine and watch the animal during that
period and know that if it has rabies, it would show up. Other
animals, OTOH, can live for years with rabies; I suspect, based on this
story, that meerkats are amongst those.

As for changing the outcome for the girl, rabies is 100% fatal for
humans, so surely you would want her treated if she were infected, or
if there were any risk of infection. (Have you seem the recent
recommendation that thousands of Girl Scouts who may have been exposed
to bats undergo treatment?)

I was under the impression that the rabies shots are extremely painful
and dangerous, but that apparently is no longer the case.

Barbara

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
So an occasional loud laugh is OK, but loud conversation and laughter
is as annoying (or maybe more annoying) than a crying baby, because I
can sympathize with the parents of the baby, and I have no sympathy
for loud adults.


I was once in a restaurant with a group of deaf parents whose babies were
making such a racket. They didn't notice, becuase they were deaf, but it
was the most awful dinner I'd ever had. No one, including me, could bring
themselves to tell the deaf parents they were too noisy. I'm not sure they
would know how to quiet the kids, since they probably never had to and
wouldn't know if the babies were using quiet voices anyway.

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:24:30 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

"Caledonia" wrote in
roups.com:

Er -- I think for some folks, Denny's is a Big Deal -- I
realize I'm wading into deep water here, but truly, I feel
that a public space is a public space. (Okay, I'm thinking
of my parents, who could only afford, post-retirement, a
dinner out at Denny's once in a blue moon. For them, it was
an intimate dinner -- which says something about wages in
the US that's pitiful, but hey, such is life) Sure,
whenever you sit in the playplace part of McD's there's an
expectation of what you'll get (then again, fast food is
typically pretty expensive, on the whole), but at a
sit-down restaurant, it's a public space and for me, the
unspoken rules (aka, 'think of it from the other guy's
perspective') apply. It's the same thing as not letting
kids run around WalMart, nor letting them run around
Bloomingdales, or Saks. It's all the same, really. Or
expecting reasonable behavior, whether seated in the first
class or coach sections. Whether it's an inexpensive venue
for you isn't comparable to whether it's a
casual/inexpensive venue for the other customers.

i wouldn't permit running around in *any* restaurant, fast
food or not, nor in any store. i also don't go for playing in
any restaurant. quiet activities like drawing, reading or
writing are fine. no standing on the seat, no loud voices &
certainly no whining or screaming.

Same here. Although I'll not get bent out of shape if talking is
louder than normal in a buffet style family rest. or fast food place.

however, we have different 'rules' for Wendy's vs someplace
like Applebee's. in Wendy's it's ok to blow your straw wrapper
at daddy or mommy. at a sit-down restaurant, it is not. even a
2 year old can grasp that they are different situations &
behave appropriately (at least mine could).
lee

Exactly. I know you don't do Mcd's or probably Burger King, but we do
allow them to run around in the designated play areas, since that is
the purpose for their existence.
At a sit-down restaurant, both girls know that they need to behave
differently, or we'll leave.

Nan

"Barbara" wrote and I snipped:

(Have you seem the recent
recommendation that thousands of Girl Scouts who may have been exposed
to bats undergo treatment?)

No, that's not quite right. They recommended treatment for the 16 girls who
reported having "contact" with the bats or didn't sleep under the mosquito
netting that was provided against bugs.

-Patty, mom of 1+2

PattyMomVA wrote:
"Barbara" wrote and I snipped:

(Have you seem the recent
recommendation that thousands of Girl Scouts who may have been exposed
to bats undergo treatment?)

No, that's not quite right. They recommended treatment for the 16 girls who
reported having "contact" with the bats or didn't sleep under the mosquito
netting that was provided against bugs.

The original recommendation was for about a thousand.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s_x.htm?csp=34

That seems to have changed today, so my news is a bit behind. OTOH, so
is yours. They're still trying to contact all of the girls, so there's
no final number, apparently.

Barbara

"toypup" wrote:


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
So an occasional loud laugh is OK, but loud conversation and laughter
is as annoying (or maybe more annoying) than a crying baby, because I
can sympathize with the parents of the baby, and I have no sympathy
for loud adults.

I was once in a restaurant with a group of deaf parents whose babies were
making such a racket. They didn't notice, becuase they were deaf, but it
was the most awful dinner I'd ever had. No one, including me, could bring
themselves to tell the deaf parents they were too noisy. I'm not sure they
would know how to quiet the kids, since they probably never had to and
wouldn't know if the babies were using quiet voices anyway.

Yes but how often does that happen?

This woman that I mentioned was laughing about every minute or minute
and a half. It was just once or twice, but with great frequency for a
half an hour or so. She quieted down briefly when she ate, but they
were almost finished dinner so it was dessert and didn't last long.
Her laugh was not quite as bad as Fran Dresher (The Nanny), but it was
close.

In article , Rosalie B. says...

"toypup" wrote:


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
So an occasional loud laugh is OK, but loud conversation and laughter
is as annoying (or maybe more annoying) than a crying baby, because I
can sympathize with the parents of the baby, and I have no sympathy
for loud adults.

I was once in a restaurant with a group of deaf parents whose babies were
making such a racket. They didn't notice, becuase they were deaf, but it
was the most awful dinner I'd ever had. No one, including me, could bring
themselves to tell the deaf parents they were too noisy. I'm not sure they
would know how to quiet the kids, since they probably never had to and
wouldn't know if the babies were using quiet voices anyway.

Yes but how often does that happen?

This woman that I mentioned was laughing about every minute or minute
and a half. It was just once or twice, but with great frequency for a
half an hour or so. She quieted down briefly when she ate, but they
were almost finished dinner so it was dessert and didn't last long.
Her laugh was not quite as bad as Fran Dresher (The Nanny), but it was
close.



What would you have her do, though?

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm