roughness with baby sister

I have three daughters, ages 8.5y(Christina), 7y(Rebecca) and
15months(Bethany). I have no problem with the oldest daughter, she is great
with the baby and is gentle and reads her cues to know when to be quiet and
calm and leave her alone, and Bethany loves playing with her and frequently
seeks her out to hold her and play.
Rebecca, OTOH, seems to have no idea whatsoever of when to calm down, and
not be so rough. Bethany doesn't want much to do with her ( Rebecca does
NOT do this on purpose, as it would break her heart if she were to hurt her
baby sister. But this child is very "energetic" to begin with and is
constantly moving, making noises, and can be so obnoxious! This behaviour
carries over to Bethany...when Rebecca is chasing Bethany she gets too close
to her and causes her to fall down or hit her head on the table or cabinets.
She will pick her up and not put her down when Bethany starts screeching to
be put down, she just doesn't pay attention to her signs that she is done.
Today as I was getting the bath ready for Bethany, Rebecca shook the high
chair back and forth and I'm surprised it didn't fall over. I freaked and
yelled at Rebecca about this. She does things constantly over and over after
repeatedly being told not to, and shaking the high chair is one of those
things. She seems to forget everything I tell her not to do. When they are
playing with a toy together, Rebecca will hold it out of Bethany's reach,
not to be mean but playing, (you know like you would a 7 year old when
they'd think it was funny) and there is Bethany just screeching and Rebecca
has no idea that she's not enjoying this game. I am so tired of fussing at
Rebecca and am ready to just ban her from having anything to do with Bethany
at all. I'm at a loss here, does anyone have any ideas? I have tried talking
to her when it's just me and her alone, reminding her when she is commiting
the act, I can't think of anything else to do. I swear if the kids were in
public school Rebecca would be in trouble everyday from her inability to sit
still and be quiet and think before acting!
Oddly enough, when Bethany was first born Rebecca was the one who would sit
and hold her for long periods of time with no problem, and Christina didn't
care to much.
Marie

Ty wrote in message ...
Today as I was getting the bath ready for Bethany, Rebecca shook the high
chair back and forth

Bethany was *in* the high chair, I should say. Wouldn't want to freak out
about an empty high chair being shaken...
Marie

"Ty" wrote in message
...
I have three daughters, ages 8.5y(Christina), 7y(Rebecca) and
15months(Bethany). I have no problem with the oldest daughter, she is
great
with the baby and is gentle and reads her cues to know when to be quiet
and
calm and leave her alone, and Bethany loves playing with her and
frequently
seeks her out to hold her and play.
Rebecca, OTOH, seems to have no idea whatsoever of when to calm down, and
not be so rough. Bethany doesn't want much to do with her ( Rebecca does
NOT do this on purpose, as it would break her heart if she were to hurt
her
baby sister. But this child is very "energetic" to begin with and is
constantly moving, making noises, and can be so obnoxious! This behaviour
carries over to Bethany...when Rebecca is chasing Bethany she gets too
close
to her and causes her to fall down or hit her head on the table or
cabinets.
She will pick her up and not put her down when Bethany starts screeching
to
be put down, she just doesn't pay attention to her signs that she is done.
Today as I was getting the bath ready for Bethany, Rebecca shook the high
chair back and forth and I'm surprised it didn't fall over. I freaked and
yelled at Rebecca about this. She does things constantly over and over
after
repeatedly being told not to, and shaking the high chair is one of those
things. She seems to forget everything I tell her not to do. When they are
playing with a toy together, Rebecca will hold it out of Bethany's reach,
not to be mean but playing, (you know like you would a 7 year old when
they'd think it was funny) and there is Bethany just screeching and
Rebecca
has no idea that she's not enjoying this game. I am so tired of fussing at
Rebecca and am ready to just ban her from having anything to do with
Bethany
at all. I'm at a loss here, does anyone have any ideas? I have tried
talking
to her when it's just me and her alone, reminding her when she is
commiting
the act, I can't think of anything else to do. I swear if the kids were in
public school Rebecca would be in trouble everyday from her inability to
sit
still and be quiet and think before acting!
Oddly enough, when Bethany was first born Rebecca was the one who would
sit
and hold her for long periods of time with no problem, and Christina
didn't
care to much.
Marie

i think being clueless about other people's feelings is fairly common in the
7yo set from my experience... but in the meantime, do you tell rebecca what
she can or should do, rather than what she can't or shouldn't? (i'm the
world's biggest fan of this, it's so effective.)
kylie

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:16:13 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:
i think being clueless about other people's feelings is fairly common in the
7yo set from my experience... but in the meantime, do you tell rebecca what
she can or should do, rather than what she can't or shouldn't? (i'm the
world's biggest fan of this, it's so effective.)

Not consistently, but I do it. Sometimes there's not time and I have
to quickly tell her to stop or Bethany will be hurt.
Marie

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:55:43 -0500, "Ty" wrote:

She does things constantly over and over after repeatedly being
told not to, and shaking the high chair is one of those things.

Instead of saying *don't shake the high chair* and getting mad,
find something interesting that Rebecca can do instead.

*Why don't you turn on the cd player and dance to the music,
Rebecca. I really enjoy seeing you dance and so does Bethany.*

She seems to forget everything I tell her not to do.

This is pretty typical, especially if you tell her many things that
she can't do. Try telling her things she *can* do instead.

When they are playing with a toy together, Rebecca will hold it
out of Bethany's reach, not to be mean but playing, (you know like
you would a 7 year old when they'd think it was funny) and there
is Bethany just screeching and Rebecca has no idea that she's
not enjoying this game.

When this happens, don't get mad, just tell her that she cannot
play with Bethany right now since it makes Bethany sad to be
teased this way. Separate them for several minutes, giving Bethany
some toys and let her play alone. It's not so awful for them not to
play together when the baby does get upset.

Be sure to help her see that when the baby is screeching it means
she is unhappy. It sounds as if she doesn't recognize emotions.
Does she recognize her own anger and frustration and sadness?
You may need to work on this.

Try some role playing with her dolls or some puppets and show her
what she can do when playing with a baby of Bethany's age.

I am so tired of fussing at Rebecca and am ready to just ban her
from having anything to do with Bethany at all.

I don't think a total ban is going to be helpful. You should always
give a child another chance to do things right once she has calmed
down. So do separate them when things get out of hand, but let
her come back to play after some time apart.

Also make sure to notice it when she and Bethany are playing well.
Say *I like the way you shared that toy with Bethany. Did you see
her smile?* Concentrate on the times when the kids *are* getting
along well instead of on the negative times.

I'm at a loss here, does anyone have any ideas? I have tried talking
to her when it's just me and her alone, reminding her when she
is commiting the act, I can't think of anything else to do. I swear if the
kids were in public school Rebecca would be in trouble everyday from
her inability to sit still and be quiet and think before acting!

Are you homeschooling? Or is she in private school?

If she *is* truly unable to sit still, have you thought about testing
for ADHD? While she *may* just be a normal 7 year old, it is
possible that she has this disorder. It's real and the child who has
it often cannot concentrate and cannot tone down her impulsive
behavior without special help.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article , "Ty"
wrote:

I have three daughters, ages 8.5y(Christina), 7y(Rebecca) and
15months(Bethany). I have no problem with the oldest daughter, she is great
with the baby and is gentle and reads her cues to know when to be quiet and
calm and leave her alone, and Bethany loves playing with her and frequently
seeks her out to hold her and play.
Rebecca, OTOH, seems to have no idea whatsoever of when to calm down, and
not be so rough. Bethany doesn't want much to do with her ( Rebecca does
NOT do this on purpose, as it would break her heart if she were to hurt her
baby sister. But this child is very "energetic" to begin with and is
constantly moving, making noises, and can be so obnoxious! This behaviour
carries over to Bethany...when Rebecca is chasing Bethany she gets too close
to her and causes her to fall down or hit her head on the table or cabinets.
She will pick her up and not put her down when Bethany starts screeching to
be put down, she just doesn't pay attention to her signs that she is done.
Today as I was getting the bath ready for Bethany, Rebecca shook the high
chair back and forth and I'm surprised it didn't fall over.

and you don't think she 'does this on purpose'? and that it would
'break her heart' to hurt the baby. uh huh ---

I freaked and
yelled at Rebecca about this. She does things constantly over and over after
repeatedly being told not to, and shaking the high chair is one of those
things. She seems to forget everything I tell her not to do. When they are
playing with a toy together, Rebecca will hold it out of Bethany's reach,
not to be mean but playing, (you know like you would a 7 year old when
they'd think it was funny) and there is Bethany just screeching and Rebecca
has no idea that she's not enjoying this game.

of course she does -- and she is using this behavior to gain your
attention -- you need to prevent this sort of behavior by isolating her
when she does it -- this is a good time for some zero tolerance coupled
with an attempt to create and supervise more positive interactions among
the kids -- and perhaps think about ways for this middle kid to also
have some focused alone time with you or her father

you need to break this habit chain by identifying the common patterns
and then intervening BEFORE this occurs -- and by also creating
opportunities to do what you would prefer -- what can Rebeccah do with
you and Bethany that you can closely supervise and where she can act
gently and appropriately and gain your attention for it? e.g. does
Bethany like to look at picture books? if so you could hold her on a
couch with the book and with R next to you and have her point to
pictures and 'ask' the baby about them and talk to her about what they
are -- just as you would do -- with you right there, you can guide this
interaction and reinforce the positive behavior while preventing any
roughness



I am so tired of fussing at
Rebecca and am ready to just ban her from having anything to do with Bethany
at all. I'm at a loss here, does anyone have any ideas? I have tried talking
to her when it's just me and her alone, reminding her when she is commiting
the act, I can't think of anything else to do. I swear if the kids were in
public school Rebecca would be in trouble everyday from her inability to sit
still and be quiet and think before acting!
Oddly enough, when Bethany was first born Rebecca was the one who would sit
and hold her for long periods of time with no problem, and Christina didn't
care to much.
Marie

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:19:47 -0600, Jenn wrote:

and you don't think she 'does this on purpose'? and that it would
'break her heart' to hurt the baby. uh huh ---

Of course she doesn't. You know my daughter?
She just doesn't think about what she does before she does it.

of course she does -- and she is using this behavior to gain your
attention -- you need to prevent this sort of behavior by isolating her
when she does it -- this is a good time for some zero tolerance coupled
with an attempt to create and supervise more positive interactions among
the kids -- and perhaps think about ways for this middle kid to also
have some focused alone time with you or her father

We make sure we both spend time alone with both the older girls, once
or twice a week at least.

you need to break this habit chain by identifying the common patterns
and then intervening BEFORE this occurs -- and by also creating
opportunities to do what you would prefer -- what can Rebecca do with
you and Bethany that you can closely supervise and where she can act
gently and appropriately and gain your attention for it? e.g. does
Bethany like to look at picture books? if so you could hold her on a
couch with the book and with R next to you and have her point to
pictures and 'ask' the baby about them and talk to her about what they
are -- just as you would do -- with you right there, you can guide this
interaction and reinforce the positive behavior while preventing any
roughness

Thanks for the ideas.
Marie

"Marie" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:16:13 GMT, "0tterbot" wrote:
i think being clueless about other people's feelings is fairly common in
the
7yo set from my experience... but in the meantime, do you tell rebecca
what
she can or should do, rather than what she can't or shouldn't? (i'm the
world's biggest fan of this, it's so effective.)

Not consistently, but I do it. Sometimes there's not time and I have
to quickly tell her to stop or Bethany will be hurt.

right, sometimes (often? ;-) you do just have to stop the behaviour
immediately, but i meant more in general (once the immediate crisis has
passed). e.g. r. shakes the high chair, you stop it immediately & then ask
r. if she'll get the baby's cup. (or something like that). then you'll have
something to thank her for (getting the cup), & redirect the conversation or
activities elsewhere after that. or if she's playing inappropriately, stop
the behaviour, then demonstrate a better way to play with the toy with b., &
once she's doing that you can explain the difference clearly (b. was
frustrated & angry by your teasing before, but now she's happy because
you're holding the toy close for her, or whatever). i mean, it does involve
r's cooperation. show her how all the games are more fun for her as well
when the baby's not shrieking & shattering everyone's eardrums or having to
be taken away & the game stopped because she's fallen down _again_ :-)

i'm sure she'll grow out of it, but if you can show her the right things &
praise her for them it sort of breaks the horrible cycle of clearly doing
the wrong thing but not being sure how or why it's wrong (because they seem
so incredibly vague on other people's responses at that age), then trying
something else instead which also turns out to be wrong.
kylie

toto wrote in message ...
This is pretty typical, especially if you tell her many things that
she can't do. Try telling her things she *can* do instead.


Kylie mentioned this also. I forget to do that most of the time. Will have
to work on that.

When this happens, don't get mad, just tell her that she cannot
play with Bethany right now since it makes Bethany sad to be
teased this way. Separate them for several minutes, giving Bethany
some toys and let her play alone. It's not so awful for them not to
play together when the baby does get upset.

Be sure to help her see that when the baby is screeching it means
she is unhappy. It sounds as if she doesn't recognize emotions.
Does she recognize her own anger and frustration and sadness?
You may need to work on this.

Try some role playing with her dolls or some puppets and show her
what she can do when playing with a baby of Bethany's age.


I will work on this with her, thanks for the ideas.

I don't think a total ban is going to be helpful. You should always
give a child another chance to do things right once she has calmed
down. So do separate them when things get out of hand, but let
her come back to play after some time apart.


Oh I wouldn't really ban it, I was tired and being sarcastic ;o) Usually
what I have been doing when she starts bothering Bethany (by being rough, or
loud, or not reading her cues) I just tell her to leave her alone for
awhile.

Also make sure to notice it when she and Bethany are playing well.
Say *I like the way you shared that toy with Bethany. Did you see
her smile?* Concentrate on the times when the kids *are* getting
along well instead of on the negative times.


Well. It didn't occur to me to do this between Bethany and Rebecca, I am
used to telling the two older ones this though.

Are you homeschooling? Or is she in private school?
If she *is* truly unable to sit still, have you thought about testing
for ADHD? While she *may* just be a normal 7 year old, it is
possible that she has this disorder. It's real and the child who has
it often cannot concentrate and cannot tone down her impulsive
behavior without special help.


We are homeschooling. I am almost convinced she has ADHD. I have been
reading about it and working on her diet, we were are working through that
right now. She sang in the children's Christmas singing at church this past
December, and I noticed that she was sitting/standing still, instead of the
usual fiddling and turning around in the chair and looking around and
swaying that she normally does.(she is always the wiggliest, most out-there
child in any group) I commented to her on it, and she said "I worked very
hard to be still."
Thanks for the suggestions!
Marie

0tterbot wrote in message ...
right, sometimes (often? ;-) you do just have to stop the behaviour
immediately, but i meant more in general (once the immediate crisis has
passed). e.g. r. shakes the high chair, you stop it immediately & then ask
r. if she'll get the baby's cup. (or something like that). then you'll have
something to thank her for (getting the cup), & redirect the conversation
or
activities elsewhere after that. or if she's playing inappropriately, stop
the behaviour, then demonstrate a better way to play with the toy with b.,
&
once she's doing that you can explain the difference clearly (b. was
frustrated & angry by your teasing before, but now she's happy because
you're holding the toy close for her, or whatever). i mean, it does involve
r's cooperation. show her how all the games are more fun for her as well
when the baby's not shrieking & shattering everyone's eardrums or having to
be taken away & the game stopped because she's fallen down _again_ :-)


That is a great point. I'll work on showing Rebecca that it's much better if
Bethany is happy and also work on redirecting her.

i'm sure she'll grow out of it, but if you can show her the right things &
praise her for them it sort of breaks the horrible cycle of clearly doing
the wrong thing but not being sure how or why it's wrong (because they seem
so incredibly vague on other people's responses at that age), then trying
something else instead which also turns out to be wrong.


Thanks so much, Kylie! This helps alot.
Marie