Is there an equation ?

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:jt4Sb.178275$xy6.845568@attbi_s02...

"Ian" wrote:

I am glad to have him truly. But what is wrong with wanting your
independence back? Don't you guys dream of Sunday morning lie ins?? Like
I
said before, when he was 3 I considered a vasectomy. I found it so
trying
having a 1 - 3 yr old. Now at 8, things are easier, and he is a fun guy
to
be around, but it is the thought of those awful baby and toddler years
that
put me off having another.

If you were *not* simply a lying troll, you would have
addressed, at some point, the notion that some (many?) do
not find these years awful, but quote a joy. A troll avoids
such points, but one who is interested in engaging in discussion
would respond to it.

In this particular message he said the baby and toddler years
were awful for him. (Note, he had a small baby while he and
his not quite yet wife were trying to transition from teen to
responsible adult.) I think it is uncharacteristly mean for you
to assume he's a troll just because he felt his life was tough
when he had a baby.

I don't believe that all folks interested in engaging in
discussion need to put disclaimers in every message
that "The above was my take on my situation only,
and your milage may vary."


Maybe its because you all have little kids. Its only when you are out of
it
that your truly realise how taxing it was.

Yeah, that makes loads of sense.

It make sense to me. I look back on my kids baby years
and wonder how I did it. I see other folks with little
kids and love to baby sit for a little while, but have
no desire to live it again. Ian's not alone. I also found
the baby years tough. Worth it, but tough none the
less.



P. Tierney

Ian wrote:
I am glad to have him truly. But what is wrong with wanting your
independence back?

IMO, it is wrong because it keeps you from enjoying life in the here and
now. When you spend a significant amount of mental energy thinking "life
will be good when/if", you lose the ability to see that life is good (or can
be good) *now*.

I have three quite young kids and I will be 40 in June. My husband will be
46 next month. We are tossing around the idea of having one more. I do not
spend any time at all longing for the days when my kids are grown and gone,
although I certainly don't *fear* those days either. Instead, I am enjoying
the life I have now and loving it.

If you are really glad to have your son in your life, for heaven's sake,
ENJOY him! He is not going to be a child forever--as you well know--and when
he is grown and gone and you suddenly have your independence back, you may
realize that a) the independence isn't everything it's cracked up to be and
b) you really missed out on the joys of childrearing because you were so
busy looking forward to NOT doing it any more. Don't cheat yourself of the
good parts of childrearing by focusing so much on the difficult parts.

Don't you guys dream of Sunday morning lie ins??

Honestly, not really. I *occasionally* sleep in until 8:30 or so, but I've
found as I get older, my capacity for "sleeping in" is decreasing. That may
be a simple fact of biology--they say as you get older, you tend to get
sleepy earlier and wake up earlier. (The opposite of teens, who don't get
sleepy until the wee hours of the morning and then want to sleep until
noon.) In any event, I really *want* to be in bed by 10:00 at the latest,
but it's a rare day I don't feel like being up and around by 7:00 or so.

In any event, as Banty and others pointed out, you *do* have the option of
sleeping in on Sundays if you want to. Your inability to do it is purely
self-imposed.

Like I said before, when he was 3 I considered a vasectomy. I found
it so trying having a 1 - 3 yr old. Now at 8, things are easier, and
he is a fun guy to be around, but it is the thought of those awful
baby and toddler years that put me off having another.

Believe it or not, some people actually *like* the baby and toddler years. I
happen to be one. I really enjoy the 0-2yo stage, with a special soft spot
in my heart for the 6mo. I suppose one of the reasons I want another child
is to get that 0-2yo stage one more time. OTOH, I also always say that
making your own babies is a very inefficient way to get your baby fix, since
you get so little baby and so much of everything else!

That doesn't mean that I don't find the baby/toddler stage tiring and
demanding; it's just that I find the joys of it well worth being tired and
(for lack of a better word) put-upon.

Maybe its because you all have little kids. Its only when you are out
of it that your truly realise how taxing it was.

Well, actually, not *everyone* responding to you has only little kids.
Dorothy's kids are, as she has pointed out, grown up, as are Rosalie's. Nan
has a 20yo and dragonlady's kids are in their late teens (her oldest may be
20, now). Banty's son is, IIRC, a little older than yours. Sue's youngest is
in first grade.

But what I find really amusing is that you're not complaining just about how
taxing baby/toddlerhood is. You claim that even now, with one 8yo, you and
your wife are completely exhausted at the end of each day. And when those of
us with multiple children younger than yours say we're not that tired and
don't find child-rearing nearly so taxing as you do, your response is that
it must be because we only have young children and don't know how taxed we
are. Doesn't that seem like an internally inconsistent position, even to
you?
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

Ian wrote:
Why do you find it so hard to believe that we are both tired? I work
all week, it is not like I am sat at home all day. And my wife may be
a SAHM but she certainly doesn't sit home all day either. She has all
the chores and home maintenance too, like the painting.

No one ever suggested that being a SAHP is easy. I actually choose to work
(albeit from home) primarily because I need to do something *other* than
being a parent all the time to stay sane. That's not to diss people who do
it; if anything, I have even more respect for the capabilities and
competencies of those who can do it full time because I know I *can't*.

But it *is*, I think, quite difficult to understand how two people with one
8yo and one job between them can be so wiped out. I mean, everyone posting
to this thread has at least *one* spouse who works full-time (if not two)
and *none* of the parents posting here are "sitting at home all day",
either. Most of the posters have more than one child and some have more than
one child who is in the baby/toddler stage you found particularly taxing.

Instead of trying to *justify* why you're both so tired, you might consider
asking yourself what makes your life so much more difficult than the lives
of others who have similar demands on their time. It's not like the rest of
us are independently wealthy layabouts with full-time nannies and housemaids
to prevent us from ever lifting a finger. To the contrary, most of us have
lives at least as full or busy as yours. Which raises the question: what are
we doing that's different from what you're doing?

And I think the answers to that are pretty obvious. You and your wife are
doing too much *for* your child and not enough *with* your child. And you're
not giving him the freedom and independence he needs now to learn to do for
himself what needs to be done so that you *can* have the freedom and
independence you claim to long for when he reaches the supposedly magical
age of 18.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

I do agree with both you and Nan. I was just thinking perhaps that was the
reason Ian is kind of bitter with parenting. Who knows though.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
I'm Just a Raggedy Ann in a Barbie Doll World...

Circe wrote in message
news:NR9Sb.5813$fD.2539@fed1read02...
Sue wrote:
And I suspect that Ian doesn't enjoy parenting because
it was thrusted upon him without a choice. Most people
plan a child and are ready mentally for it.

Given that roughly half of pregnancies are unplanned, I"m not sure this is
true. I think a LOT of people have parenthood thrust upon them before they
are mentally ready for it. That doesn't mean that such people don't enjoy
parenting, but I suspect a significant proportion of parents are in Ian's
shoes in one way or another.

.I know I wasn't ready to even think about being a parent until
I was his age that he is now.

Ditto. Funny that I thought early on in the thread that the reason he and
his wife are so tired is that they're young. Man, when I was in my 20s,
there was no way I could have managed the demands of a child. Waiting
until
I was in my 30s to have children made a world of difference!
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"enigma" wrote in message
.. .
` i've seen tracks in the sugarbush, but the llamas would stomp
any that tried crossing the pasture. what scares me is rabid
fox. well, ok, a rabid coyote would scare me more. but coyotes
aren't really pack animals so they're less dangerous than wild
dogs.

Don't know if they are or not, but when I see coyotes around here, they are
in small groups of two or three. We don't get them so much anymore since
the city gave us all trash bins. The neighbors have stopped putting out
trash in plain garbage bags and have been using the bins. It's cut down on
the coyotes drastically.

"Nan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:39:37 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


"Nan" wrote in message
.. .
I would believe that more of people with much younger children,
though. I've simply never met anyone that wasn't aware *at all* the
things an 8 year old is capable of! Most children are very
independent by that age, and have no trouble letting their parents
know what they can do, or want to do.

You haven't met my mom. My brother never told her what he could do,
because
he knew her. She needed to be needed and to know she wasn't needed would
have devastated her. That's just how she is.

Well, then she was meeting her own needs. Did she complain about it,
though??

Yeah. She likes to play the martyr, how much she sacrifices for her kids,
blah, blah, blah. How hard life is after having kids, blah, blah. How
unappreciated she is, blah.

"Cathy Kearns" wrote in message
. com...

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:jt4Sb.178275$xy6.845568@attbi_s02...

"Ian" wrote:

I am glad to have him truly. But what is wrong with wanting your
independence back? Don't you guys dream of Sunday morning lie ins??
Like
I
said before, when he was 3 I considered a vasectomy. I found it so
trying
having a 1 - 3 yr old. Now at 8, things are easier, and he is a fun
guy
to
be around, but it is the thought of those awful baby and toddler years
that
put me off having another.

If you were *not* simply a lying troll, you would have
addressed, at some point, the notion that some (many?) do
not find these years awful, but quote a joy. A troll avoids
such points, but one who is interested in engaging in discussion
would respond to it.

In this particular message he said the baby and toddler years
were awful for him. (Note, he had a small baby while he and
his not quite yet wife were trying to transition from teen to
responsible adult.) I think it is uncharacteristly mean for you
to assume he's a troll just because he felt his life was tough
when he had a baby.

First, I think it's all fiction. Second, if I'm wrong and it
isn't fiction, it's odd to me that he would complain about
how hard life *was* when he's doing as much complaining
about it life now. At first he said that he wasn't understood
because posters may have had young kids, not the hard and
"bad" task of raising an eight year old. Now, he's taking things
in another direction.

I don't believe that all folks interested in engaging in
discussion need to put disclaimers in every message
that "The above was my take on my situation only,
and your milage may vary."

But the poster has said *repeatedly*, in his own words,
that YMMV is not a philosophy of his. That it's
extremely hard for everyone because it's extremely
hard for him. He has given every indication, often by
saying so directly, that he considers his situation to be
the norm, and has gone as far as to say that those who
do not express his troubles must be lying.

Maybe its because you all have little kids. Its only when you are out
of
it
that your truly realise how taxing it was.

Yeah, that makes loads of sense.

It make sense to me. I look back on my kids baby years
and wonder how I did it. I see other folks with little
kids and love to baby sit for a little while, but have
no desire to live it again. Ian's not alone. I also found
the baby years tough. Worth it, but tough none the
less.

Again, he's complaining just as much about life now,
with an eight year old. That's part of what, it seems, has
baffled some people -- that he's complaining about how
difficult things are when, at the very least, the child is
at school 40 hours a week. Along with the various other
brought-upon difficulties. In that sense, I think he is alone.


P. Tierney

"Sophie" wrote in message ...

Oddly, we have never had a problem with bookcases--and
we have a *LOT* of bookcases (hmmm...something like a dozen tall
ones, four or five medium height ones, and four or five smaller
ones). Obviously, doing anything with them would be a royal
PITA, so we just never did. We haven't had a problem with it.
Well, so far anyway ;-) I've probably just jinxed myself and
Genevieve will be hell on wheels when it comes to bookcases ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka


Patrick used to climb ours then jump off of it onto the couch. Lewis just
likes to empty the shelves. I prefer the climbing and jumping honestly.
Lol.

My oldest - who is 8, coincidently ;-) - recently discovered our
built-in bookcases on either side of the fireplace. He uses them to
climb up and put things out of reach of the 3 year old, who I suppose
hasn't figured them out yet. The 3 year old *has* figured out that a
series of drawers pulled out just *so* makes a nice staircase up to
the kitchen counter. Where he likes to *stand*!!

My 5 year old is more of a traditionalist and prefers chairs and step
ladders for her climbing purposes. For some reason, she's also the
only one who has had stiches from a fall! Maybe there's something to
be said for bookcase and drawer climbing...

And as for the videos strewn about. I've given up. Fortunately,
everyone's old enough that the videos get taken out only for viewing,
but I'll be doggone if they get put back! So I just let it go and we
clean them all up at once...*sigh*

- Bev

P. Tierney wrote:
That's part of what, it seems, has
baffled some people -- that he's complaining about how
difficult things are when, at the very least, the child is
at school 40 hours a week.

Okay, now *I'm* baffled. Where, exactly, do 8yo's attend school for 40 hours
per week (and when can I move there)? I think it's more like 30-32.5 hours
per week (an average of 6-6.5 school hours per day).
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"toypup" wrote in
news:XnbSb.182208$na.298550@attbi_s04:


"enigma" wrote in message
.. .
` i've seen tracks in the sugarbush, but the llamas would
stomp
any that tried crossing the pasture. what scares me is
rabid fox. well, ok, a rabid coyote would scare me more.
but coyotes aren't really pack animals so they're less
dangerous than wild dogs.

Don't know if they are or not, but when I see coyotes
around here, they are in small groups of two or three. We
don't get them so much anymore since the city gave us all
trash bins. The neighbors have stopped putting out trash
in plain garbage bags and have been using the bins. It's
cut down on the coyotes drastically.

probably a mom & her pups. those coyote kids hang around until
the next litter comes along
lee