Trying to "reason" with a child or spanking?

Like there's only two choices?

This is the argument, above, and in the subject field that spankers and
protectors of spankers frequently use to complain about non-CP
advocates.

Doesn't it make you kind of wonder if the spankers, all spanked
themselves, didn't get paddled a little to high up their back?

Ever see a parent that themselves were not spanked, but instead
parented as below resort to spanking for teaching?

Here's an interesting replyto those who posit only two choices:

"There are a multitude of parenting strategies for very young children
that do
not rely on reasoning or spanking. The first is to understand where
this
little child is developmentally and have appropriate expectations.
Then try
avoiding the issue if the expectation is developmentally inappropriate.
Use
redirection, substitution, extinction, meeting child's immediate needs,
and a
multitude of other parenting strategies. If you want more information,
please
ask. I've posted this many times on alt.parenting.spanking. Parenting
is
about teaching. Parenting is about helping children develop internal
control
and moral reasoning -- it's not about hitting for compliance.

And a multitude of studies spanning several decades exist showing that
spanking
is linked to long and short term risk factors and no studies that show
spanking
to be preferrable to alternative forms of discipline that do not
involve
hitting, hurting, shaming, or demeaning a child. Of course, if you
have
studies that support your position, I'd love to read them. Please post
your
sources.

LaVonne "
Oct 21 2003

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...out530773.html

Health
Parents' Views on Violence Guide Child's Behavior


MONDAY, Feb. 6 (HealthDay News) -- Parents who set an example that any
form of violence -- including spanking -- is unacceptable are more
likely to bring up children who don't get into fights or other forms of
violence, researchers report.

But their study also found that this type of childrearing isn't always
the norm in American families.

"Almost 40 percent of parents in the study population said they would
tell their child it is OK to hit if another person pushes or hits him
or her," said lead researcher Dr. Sally-Ann Ohene, formerly of the
University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.

"This suggests that for a significant number of these parents, advising
their child to fight back is [considered] the best way" to deal with
violence, she said.

According to Ohene, children often heed that advice and do what they
think is expected -- fight.

On the other hand, parents who do not hit their children and who state
categorically that hitting is wrong are sending a clear message that
children can also understand and accept, the researchers say.

They published their findings in the February issue of the journal
Pediatrics.

The study is based on a 2003 survey of 134 children 10 to 15 years old
and their parents living in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area.

The parent-child pairs were culled from eight outpatient pediatric
practices in urban and suburban areas covering a wide socio-economic
range.

The researchers found a clear inverse relationship between parental
attitudes toward violence and their children's history of fighting: The
more accepting the parent was toward violence, the more prone the child
was to engage in violent scuffles. Similar results were found for the
use of corporal punishment in the home, such as spanking.

The results are interesting but predictable, said Daniel W. Webster,
associate professor at the Center for the Prevention of Youth Violence,
part of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in
Baltimore.

"It is very consistent with other research about the cycle of
violence," he said. "In homes where there is physical violence between
parents, or parent to child, that increases the likelihood that they
will have problems with increased violence."

Webster stressed, however, that "most children who do experience
violence do not go on to violence -- but it certainly increases the
risk."

It's also important to note that what behaviors parents expect from
their child, and what their children believe their parents want, can be
two very different things, said Dr. Iris Wagman Borowsky, an assistant
professor of pediatrics at the University of Minnesota and the senior
author of the study.

"What a child thinks a parent expects of him is more important than
what a parent actually thinks," she said. "We find this is true for
violence as well as other risk behaviors," including sexual activity
and substance abuse.

"It just makes good sense to talk with your child about how you feel
about these issues," she said.

More information

To learn more about risk factors for youth violence, as well as
protective factors, go to the National Center for Injury Prevention and
Control.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/yvfacts.htm

Abstract of the study mentioned in the article:

PEDIATRICS Vol. 117 No. 2 February 2006, pp. 441-447
(doi:10.1542/peds.2005-0421)
Adolescent Medicine
Parental Expectations, Physical Punishment, and Violence Among
Adolescents Who Score Positive on a Psychosocial Screening Test in
Primary Care
OBJECTIVE. We sought to examine the relationship between perceived and
stated parental expectations regarding adolescents' use of violence,
parental use of physical punishment as discipline, and young
adolescents' violence-related attitudes and involvement.

METHODS. Surveys were completed by 134 youth and their parents
attending 8 pediatric practices. All youth were 10 to 15 years of age
and had scored positive on a psychosocial screening test.

RESULTS. Multivariate analyses revealed that perceived parental
disapproval of the use of violence was associated with a more prosocial
attitude toward interpersonal peer violence and a decreased likelihood
of physical fighting by the youth. Parental report of whether they
would advise their child to use violence in a conflict situation
(stated parental expectations) was not associated with the adolescents'
attitudes toward interpersonal peer violence, intentions to fight,
physical fighting, bullying, or violence victimization. Parental use of
corporal punishment as a disciplining method was inversely associated
with a prosocial attitude toward interpersonal peer violence among the
youth and positively correlated with youths' intentions to fight and
fighting, bullying, and violence victimization.

CONCLUSIONS. Perceived parental disapproval of the use of violence may
be an important protective factor against youth involvement in
violence, and parental use of physical punishment is associated with
both violence perpetration and victimization among youth. Parents
should be encouraged to clearly communicate to their children how to
resolve conflicts without resorting to violence and to model these
skills themselves by avoiding the use of physical punishment.

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...6/02/06/hscout...

Health
Parents' Views on Violence Guide Child's Behavior

MONDAY, Feb. 6 (HealthDay News) -- Parents who set an example that any
form of violence -- including spanking -- is unacceptable are more
likely to bring up children who don't get into fights or other forms of
violence, researchers report.

But their study also found that this type of childrearing isn't always
the norm in American families.

"Almost 40 percent of parents in the study population said they would
tell their child it is OK to hit if another person pushes or hits him
or her," said lead researcher Dr. Sally-Ann Ohene, formerly of the
University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.

"This suggests that for a significant number of these parents, advising
their child to fight back is [considered] the best way" to deal with
violence, she said.

According to Ohene, children often heed that advice and do what they
think is expected -- fight.

On the other hand, parents who do not hit their children and who state
categorically that hitting is wrong are sending a clear message that
children can also understand and accept, the researchers say.

They published their findings in the February issue of the journal
Pediatrics.

The study is based on a 2003 survey of 134 children 10 to 15 years old
and their parents living in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area.

The parent-child pairs were culled from eight outpatient pediatric
practices in urban and suburban areas covering a wide socio-economic
range.

The researchers found a clear inverse relationship between parental
attitudes toward violence and their children's history of fighting: The
more accepting the parent was toward violence, the more prone the child
was to engage in violent scuffles. Similar results were found for the
use of corporal punishment in the home, such as spanking.

The results are interesting but predictable, said Daniel W. Webster,
associate professor at the Center for the Prevention of Youth Violence,
part of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in
Baltimore.

"It is very consistent with other research about the cycle of
violence," he said. "In homes where there is physical violence between
parents, or parent to child, that increases the likelihood that they
will have problems with increased violence."

Webster stressed, however, that "most children who do experience
violence do not go on to violence -- but it certainly increases the
risk."

It's also important to note that what behaviors parents expect from
their child, and what their children believe their parents want, can be
two very different things, said Dr. Iris Wagman Borowsky, an assistant
professor of pediatrics at the University of Minnesota and the senior
author of the study.

"What a child thinks a parent expects of him is more important than
what a parent actually thinks," she said. "We find this is true for
violence as well as other risk behaviors," including sexual activity
and substance abuse.

"It just makes good sense to talk with your child about how you feel
about these issues," she said.

More information

To learn more about risk factors for youth violence, as well as
protective factors, go to the National Center for Injury Prevention and
Control.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/yvfacts.htm

Abstract of the study mentioned in the article:

PEDIATRICS Vol. 117 No. 2 February 2006, pp. 441-447
(doi:10.1542/peds.2005-0421)
Adolescent Medicine
Parental Expectations, Physical Punishment, and Violence Among
Adolescents Who Score Positive on a Psychosocial Screening Test in
Primary Care
OBJECTIVE. We sought to examine the relationship between perceived and
stated parental expectations regarding adolescents' use of violence,
parental use of physical punishment as discipline, and young
adolescents' violence-related attitudes and involvement.

METHODS. Surveys were completed by 134 youth and their parents
attending 8 pediatric practices. All youth were 10 to 15 years of age
and had scored positive on a psychosocial screening test.

RESULTS. Multivariate analyses revealed that perceived parental
disapproval of the use of violence was associated with a more prosocial
attitude toward interpersonal peer violence and a decreased likelihood
of physical fighting by the youth. Parental report of whether they
would advise their child to use violence in a conflict situation
(stated parental expectations) was not associated with the adolescents'
attitudes toward interpersonal peer violence, intentions to fight,
physical fighting, bullying, or violence victimization. Parental use of
corporal punishment as a disciplining method was inversely associated
with a prosocial attitude toward interpersonal peer violence among the
youth and positively correlated with youths' intentions to fight and
fighting, bullying, and violence victimization.

CONCLUSIONS. Perceived parental disapproval of the use of violence may
be an important protective factor against youth involvement in
violence, and parental use of physical punishment is associated with
both violence perpetration and victimization among youth. Parents
should be encouraged to clearly communicate to their children how to
resolve conflicts without resorting to violence and to model these
skills themselves by avoiding the use of physical punishment.

"This study has a number of limitations. With no means of external
validation, the self-report nature of this study leaves room for reporter
bias on the part of both the youth and their parents. The majority of the
adult respondents were mothers, which may have influenced the data. The
study is cross sectional, and therefore it is not possible to determine
either causality or directionality of the variables analyzed. Finally,
because the study population was limited to a select group of young
people, clinic-attending adolescents who scored positive on the PSC-17 and
their parents, the findings cannot be generalized to all adolescents.
Additional research to further explore the findings should be longitudinal
in nature and should include a larger and more diverse group of
adolescents. "

Doan

On 7 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:



http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...6/02/06/hscout...

Health
Parents' Views on Violence Guide Child's Behavior

MONDAY, Feb. 6 (HealthDay News) -- Parents who set an example that any
form of violence -- including spanking -- is unacceptable are more
likely to bring up children who don't get into fights or other forms of
violence, researchers report.

But their study also found that this type of childrearing isn't always
the norm in American families.

"Almost 40 percent of parents in the study population said they would
tell their child it is OK to hit if another person pushes or hits him
or her," said lead researcher Dr. Sally-Ann Ohene, formerly of the
University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.

"This suggests that for a significant number of these parents, advising
their child to fight back is [considered] the best way" to deal with
violence, she said.

According to Ohene, children often heed that advice and do what they
think is expected -- fight.

On the other hand, parents who do not hit their children and who state
categorically that hitting is wrong are sending a clear message that
children can also understand and accept, the researchers say.

They published their findings in the February issue of the journal
Pediatrics.

The study is based on a 2003 survey of 134 children 10 to 15 years old
and their parents living in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area.

The parent-child pairs were culled from eight outpatient pediatric
practices in urban and suburban areas covering a wide socio-economic
range.

The researchers found a clear inverse relationship between parental
attitudes toward violence and their children's history of fighting: The
more accepting the parent was toward violence, the more prone the child
was to engage in violent scuffles. Similar results were found for the
use of corporal punishment in the home, such as spanking.

The results are interesting but predictable, said Daniel W. Webster,
associate professor at the Center for the Prevention of Youth Violence,
part of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in
Baltimore.

"It is very consistent with other research about the cycle of
violence," he said. "In homes where there is physical violence between
parents, or parent to child, that increases the likelihood that they
will have problems with increased violence."

Webster stressed, however, that "most children who do experience
violence do not go on to violence -- but it certainly increases the
risk."

It's also important to note that what behaviors parents expect from
their child, and what their children believe their parents want, can be
two very different things, said Dr. Iris Wagman Borowsky, an assistant
professor of pediatrics at the University of Minnesota and the senior
author of the study.

"What a child thinks a parent expects of him is more important than
what a parent actually thinks," she said. "We find this is true for
violence as well as other risk behaviors," including sexual activity
and substance abuse.

"It just makes good sense to talk with your child about how you feel
about these issues," she said.

More information

To learn more about risk factors for youth violence, as well as
protective factors, go to the National Center for Injury Prevention and
Control.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/yvfacts.htm

Abstract of the study mentioned in the article:

PEDIATRICS Vol. 117 No. 2 February 2006, pp. 441-447
(doi:10.1542/peds.2005-0421)
Adolescent Medicine
Parental Expectations, Physical Punishment, and Violence Among
Adolescents Who Score Positive on a Psychosocial Screening Test in
Primary Care
OBJECTIVE. We sought to examine the relationship between perceived and
stated parental expectations regarding adolescents' use of violence,
parental use of physical punishment as discipline, and young
adolescents' violence-related attitudes and involvement.

METHODS. Surveys were completed by 134 youth and their parents
attending 8 pediatric practices. All youth were 10 to 15 years of age
and had scored positive on a psychosocial screening test.

RESULTS. Multivariate analyses revealed that perceived parental
disapproval of the use of violence was associated with a more prosocial
attitude toward interpersonal peer violence and a decreased likelihood
of physical fighting by the youth. Parental report of whether they
would advise their child to use violence in a conflict situation
(stated parental expectations) was not associated with the adolescents'
attitudes toward interpersonal peer violence, intentions to fight,
physical fighting, bullying, or violence victimization. Parental use of
corporal punishment as a disciplining method was inversely associated
with a prosocial attitude toward interpersonal peer violence among the
youth and positively correlated with youths' intentions to fight and
fighting, bullying, and violence victimization.

CONCLUSIONS. Perceived parental disapproval of the use of violence may
be an important protective factor against youth involvement in
violence, and parental use of physical punishment is associated with
both violence perpetration and victimization among youth. Parents
should be encouraged to clearly communicate to their children how to
resolve conflicts without resorting to violence and to model these
skills themselves by avoiding the use of physical punishment.

To the reader:

If you have made it a practice to read research reports you know that
each and every one, that has any peer credibility, will include a
paragraph or two with caveats as to the limitations of the research (no
study can explore all the possibilities, realistically) and suggestions
for further research by others, or sometimes even plans to expand their
own into the areas listed as limitations.

Don't let yourself be fooled by harassing posters who think that the
normal limitations of all research negate the validity of the one you
are viewing.

It's just childish harassment, nothing more.

No argument offered in rebutal of the study. No other studies offered.

In other words, no debate or argument, just harassment.

Researchers ignore these, rightly so, but do respond to thoughtful and
reasonable criticism, as we have seen in the past in this ng, from
citation.

My advice if you wish to really get into this issue without losing your
way?

Ignore those that harass and "debate" on fine points of what some
poster might have or might not have meant.

And in so doing, avoiding the subject under discussion.

The study cited is what it is. No attempt to make it prove or support
something not in evidence in the study itself was intended. Attempts to
make it look that way by copy and pasting sections of the report sans
context are nothing more than harassment, not worthy of further comment
than to point out the low moral and ethical standards of those that do
such things.

Have a great day.

Kane

In other words, you must believe in the LIES spewed by Kane. ;-)

Doan

On 11 Feb 2006, 0:- wrote:

To the reader:

If you have made it a practice to read research reports you know that
each and every one, that has any peer credibility, will include a
paragraph or two with caveats as to the limitations of the research (no
study can explore all the possibilities, realistically) and suggestions
for further research by others, or sometimes even plans to expand their
own into the areas listed as limitations.

Don't let yourself be fooled by harassing posters who think that the
normal limitations of all research negate the validity of the one you
are viewing.

It's just childish harassment, nothing more.

No argument offered in rebutal of the study. No other studies offered.

In other words, no debate or argument, just harassment.

Researchers ignore these, rightly so, but do respond to thoughtful and
reasonable criticism, as we have seen in the past in this ng, from
citation.

My advice if you wish to really get into this issue without losing your
way?

Ignore those that harass and "debate" on fine points of what some
poster might have or might not have meant.

And in so doing, avoiding the subject under discussion.

The study cited is what it is. No attempt to make it prove or support
something not in evidence in the study itself was intended. Attempts to
make it look that way by copy and pasting sections of the report sans
context are nothing more than harassment, not worthy of further comment
than to point out the low moral and ethical standards of those that do
such things.

Have a great day.

Kane

..

Almost 40 percent of parents in the study population said they would
tell their child it is OK to hit if another person pushes or hits him
or her

Absolutely. If the kid doesn't hit back, the bullies will attack him
again. I would spank the child for attacking nother person unprovoked,
or after any sort of provocation that didn't involve being hit. But you
hit my kid and he'll hit you back, and rightly so.

Jennie

Jennie wrote:
Almost 40 percent of parents in the study population said they would
tell their child it is OK to hit if another person pushes or hits him
or her


Absolutely. If the kid doesn't hit back, the bullies will attack him
again. I would spank the child for attacking nother person unprovoked,
or after any sort of provocation that didn't involve being hit. But you
hit my kid and he'll hit you back, and rightly so.

Jennie

You've no idea what you are promoting, do you?

And no, the bullies do not hit back if the child uses those means
available to civilized people.

Now if the have no such means, and they are in danger, well sure.

But a child can always go, or should be able to if their parent isn't a
coward, and tell them what happened and ask for help.

Most parents of bullies are not in support of them being bullies.

Time and again parents have handled such things between them and the
bully learned not to do that, and the bullied child learned the correct
way to handle violence BEFORE it gets out of hand.

Civilized people do the later. Savages, and the world is full of them,
just escalate.

By the way, I'm a gun owner. And I carry. The last thing I ever want to
do is pull it on a "bully." Only if I have NO OTHER way out, would I do
that.

I've had a number of encounters with "bullies" of various kinds, from on
the street to driving. It would never occur to me to draw my gun. Now if
they took actions that endangered my life? Sure.

But in any of those instances I've encountered that started to escalate,
except for two, I simply called the police dispatch on my cell phone. I
sought the help the civilized have put in place to keep from escalating
to murderous violence.

The two other incidences? They had progressed well into it being far too
late to call the police, and the murderous intent of the aggressors was
plainly spoken and being acted upon.

Did I shot them?

Did not have to. Again, no violence took place. Just the presence of my
gun was enough to change their minds.

I walk quietly, as Teddy suggested. I do not provoke. I avoid
escalation. I use all the means possible to do this without violence,
and even then, I use the potential to return violence with greater or
equal violence only if the perp does not stop on my command.

You are urging a child to hit at the first hit, are you not?

A first hit from a child, even against another child, is rarely life
threatening. If the bully is not satisfied with the child walking away
and stops him or her, then sure, go for the gold. That's escalation by
the bully.

But do NOT presume it. And please, don't teach your child to not hit by
hitting him.

You do get the incongruence, so you not?

Bullies are in fact spanked children. Unspanked children do not become
bullies.

Kane

--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/heal...out530773.html

Health
Parents' Views on Violence Guide Child's Behavior


MONDAY, Feb. 6 (HealthDay News) -- Parents who set an example that any
form of violence -- including spanking -- is unacceptable are more
likely to bring up children who don't get into fights or other forms of
violence, researchers report.

But their study also found that this type of childrearing isn't always
the norm in American families.

"Almost 40 percent of parents in the study population said they would
tell their child it is OK to hit if another person pushes or hits him
or her," said lead researcher Dr. Sally-Ann Ohene, formerly of the
University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.

"This suggests that for a significant number of these parents, advising
their child to fight back is [considered] the best way" to deal with
violence, she said.

According to Ohene, children often heed that advice and do what they
think is expected -- fight.

On the other hand, parents who do not hit their children and who state
categorically that hitting is wrong are sending a clear message that
children can also understand and accept, the researchers say.

They published their findings in the February issue of the journal
Pediatrics.

The study is based on a 2003 survey of 134 children 10 to 15 years old
and their parents living in the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area.

The parent-child pairs were culled from eight outpatient pediatric
practices in urban and suburban areas covering a wide socio-economic
range.

The researchers found a clear inverse relationship between parental
attitudes toward violence and their children's history of fighting: The
more accepting the parent was toward violence, the more prone the child
was to engage in violent scuffles. Similar results were found for the
use of corporal punishment in the home, such as spanking.

The results are interesting but predictable, said Daniel W. Webster,
associate professor at the Center for the Prevention of Youth Violence,
part of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in
Baltimore.

"It is very consistent with other research about the cycle of
violence," he said. "In homes where there is physical violence between
parents, or parent to child, that increases the likelihood that they
will have problems with increased violence."

Webster stressed, however, that "most children who do experience
violence do not go on to violence -- but it certainly increases the
risk."

It's also important to note that what behaviors parents expect from
their child, and what their children believe their parents want, can be
two very different things, said Dr. Iris Wagman Borowsky, an assistant
professor of pediatrics at the University of Minnesota and the senior
author of the study.

"What a child thinks a parent expects of him is more important than
what a parent actually thinks," she said. "We find this is true for
violence as well as other risk behaviors," including sexual activity
and substance abuse.

"It just makes good sense to talk with your child about how you feel
about these issues," she said.

More information

To learn more about risk factors for youth violence, as well as
protective factors, go to the National Center for Injury Prevention and
Control.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/yvfacts.htm

Abstract of the study mentioned in the article:

PEDIATRICS Vol. 117 No. 2 February 2006, pp. 441-447
(doi:10.1542/peds.2005-0421)
Adolescent Medicine
Parental Expectations, Physical Punishment, and Violence Among
Adolescents Who Score Positive on a Psychosocial Screening Test in
Primary Care
OBJECTIVE. We sought to examine the relationship between perceived and
stated parental expectations regarding adolescents' use of violence,
parental use of physical punishment as discipline, and young
adolescents' violence-related attitudes and involvement.

METHODS. Surveys were completed by 134 youth and their parents
attending 8 pediatric practices. All youth were 10 to 15 years of age
and had scored positive on a psychosocial screening test.

RESULTS. Multivariate analyses revealed that perceived parental
disapproval of the use of violence was associated with a more prosocial
attitude toward interpersonal peer violence and a decreased likelihood
of physical fighting by the youth. Parental report of whether they
would advise their child to use violence in a conflict situation
(stated parental expectations) was not associated with the adolescents'
attitudes toward interpersonal peer violence, intentions to fight,
physical fighting, bullying, or violence victimization. Parental use of
corporal punishment as a disciplining method was inversely associated
with a prosocial attitude toward interpersonal peer violence among the
youth and positively correlated with youths' intentions to fight and
fighting, bullying, and violence victimization.

CONCLUSIONS. Perceived parental disapproval of the use of violence may
be an important protective factor against youth involvement in
violence, and parental use of physical punishment is associated with
both violence perpetration and victimization among youth. Parents
should be encouraged to clearly communicate to their children how to
resolve conflicts without resorting to violence and to model these
skills themselves by avoiding the use of physical punishment.