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#1
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Introduction
I used to lurk this group when my dd was younger. We got busy and I was off
usenet for awhile. Now she's 10, driving me crazy, and I've been back lurking. Had a lot a questions the past few weeks I wanted to ask but thought I'd post an intro first (and see if my postings work!). I'm single mom, 10 yr old daughter, divorced 9 years. Her dad and I have both been involved with her upbringing, although he's a passive aggressive so I get most of the 'dirty' work ... like, two kids instead of one. A year ago we had to put some physical distance from him (professional advice) and this past holiday I had to put down some strict boundaries. Makes the days more difficult to deal with 10-year-old transitions in some ways; in others, much easier as I don't have him picking apart every decision I make just to criticize. Actually, he spent xmas doing exactly that to her, which was the reason for the restrictions. Glad to see so many custodial (and non-) on this board. Parenting has nothing to do with gender most of the time and seems society hasn't figured that out yet. Hope you'll bear with some of my questions and communication; sometimes a bit off due to a disability, but generally if you tell me to shut up, I do. |
#2
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Introduction
A little background here ...
No, our boundaries and restrictions aren't so formal. LOL ... I "sent him to his room" so to speak. The physical distance is a rural area where airline access is more time consuming (no major hub for quick 'disruptive' visits), and the xmas restrictions are less phone contact for awhile while she goes thru these HORRID pre-teen stages. Can you guess? He's no help with any of it, but then he never was. I think he has a tendency to take on 'symptoms' of whatever is around, including pre-pms! Unhappily his behavior is not really fun to be around when you're on the receiving end. I spent Thanksgiving and xmas having him expect me to wait on him (you know, feed, entertain, etc., when those things are difficult in my household due to dd's behavior and disabilities I have). That was the physical; the constant criticizing and picking are something I tell him to put where he sits, but at xmas he started in on dd, so that's the reason for the restricted calls. If he's not going to help her, get out of the way! is my opinion. In a week I think I heard nothing positive come out of his mouth, certainly not supportive or nurturing. Oh well. It's pretty typical of his passive aggressive approach to things. Sometimes its better, sometimes like this. When its like this, its healthy to keep him at a distance in many ways. He knows that if he messes up too much and pushes too far he will lose the little legal custody he has left. That will NOT stop his visitation or involvement in her life. It will simply take his power to veto on decisions away from him. This is because he has interfered with serious issues in the past, including preventing her from appropriate medical care. It's for her safety. Passive aggressives are not fun, and can be extremely dangerous. Most of my questions here are to find out what y'all do (or might do) in certain situations with her. I do NOT recall pulling nearly as much cr*p when I was this age, although she was a challenge starting several years ago. She definitely has an "attitude" which wasn't helped by daddy and others interfering with key issues. Some of my probs with her are habits she's developed from that, including the typical age-appropriate "duh! what's a coat?" when you ask where their coat is. I've actually started keeping a record of some of the responses I get!!! I see the humor in some, but I'm not able to really laugh about any of it yet. This Chinese New Year, which is observed in my house, was the third holiday (Nov, Dec, now) that she has caused major disruption and, in effect, made it not happen completely. I'm beside myself. In the past, its true, I was pressured to do the holiday anyway because "she's too young, she doesn't understand, she didn't mean it" ... So each time in the past the holiday happened, but it was discussed with her and some consequences happened but she sailed thru happily! This time I had it and shut down my house. No TV, no recreation, nothing until there is satisfactory communication about the problems. (I get the silent treatment too ... sullen, silent, anger ... which I really hate.) Even the school got pulled into the manipulative communication game, for which I ended up taking the responsibility for until I asked them how they liked being jerked around by a 10-year-old! Basically, she has little if any respect or courtesy for adults, although she's not openly hostile ... she's manipulative. She is totally engrossed in self-satisfaction; everything else is an irritation, and if it doesn't meet her instant needs, she resists simply to resist. It has been suggested several times in the past several years that I need help to come in to assist me with my daily or weekly household tasks. I realized a few weeks ago that although that stuff takes me longer, I can still do it. What I can't do is wait hand and foot on a 10-year-old who refuses to do ANYTHING. SHE needs the maid, I don't. And that's even more frustrating. I realize I'm not giving many details here. I just started rambling. I'l try to post issues in a separate thread for responses as I can detail them. I had six siblings with extended family close by and both parents in the household; I do NOT know how to raise an only child with no extended family involvement! Could use some balanced, objective advice that isn't "oh, it's to HARD for her to remember that Thursday is trash night! You need to remember and remind her." Sorry to rant. 'Kate wrote in message ... On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:42:06 -0600, "127.0.0.1" snip A year ago we had to put some physical distance from him (professional advice) and this past holiday I had to put down some strict boundaries. Makes the days more difficult to deal with 10-year-old transitions in some ways; in others, much easier as I don't have him picking apart every decision I make just to criticize. Actually, he spent xmas doing exactly that to her, which was the reason for the restrictions. What kind of boundries? Regarding his (the father's) behaviors? Time restrictions? Or supervised visitations? snip 'Kate |
#3
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Introduction
snip
My concern is that something has happened to her that she is not telling you about and she's taking it out on you and everyone else who is close to her... the people who didn't protect her. If her friends have changed, if her schoolwork is less satisfactory than it use to be, and she has changed drastically for the worse at home, it's worth investigating the possibility that someone or something hurt her. I think you'll probably need to find neutral ground and talk to her. I use to take the kids out to a nice dinner one-on-one. It seemed that when I treated them a little special, gave them my exclusive time with no distractions, they were better able to see me as a person and vice versa. I found out a lot during those dinners. The past year and a bit have been hectic, moves, travel, and I've taken that into account. She had to change schools and friends, which hurt me to do, but necessary. At the same time, the 'friends' I took her from were not all a very good influence, and the neighborhood was not the best. The rural community is safer. I was sensitive to her not making friends as easily here as she has in the past, but seeing some of her behavior consistently over the past six months makes me understand a bit why she's not been accepted very well. Her attitude sucks! She treats the kids much like she acts generally ... she's the princess, they are the servants. And she manipulates. It's subtle but its there. Kids tend to pick up this type of thing subconsciously anyway, and this age group instinctively works out a 'pecking order' ... especially the girls. I got wise when, at every school she's ever attended, the worst enemy she claims seems to be the one(s) she considers the most popular. Then she sets up her own battlefield, subtle manipulation. So this is something she is creating, and I've talked at length with her about it, and it was raised in a conversation when talking with the school counselor. The friend thing is going to have to work itself out. I've offered to open the house for 'friend night' for kids to come play board games, etc. (we have lots of movies). All she has to do is get names and phone numbers. She won't do it. She expects me to hunt these people down and serve them up. I won't. As far as her being 'injured' the closest thing with that would be her relationship with her dad. A strong contibuting factor for our move to this place with more difficult access. She has a LOT of anger toward him because of what he has done and still does. He alienated his family almost immediately after the marriage (long story). Basically, they won't talk to her unless he is with her. They won't call my house (in case I answer the phone). She stopped sending cards and letters long ago because they never responded, or filtered everything thru him. It's really sick, and he's maintained a lot of lies for over 10 years that he can't emotionally be truthful about or risk his credibility with them. It doesn't hurt me anymore, but its tearing her apart. Add to that the fact that he is 4th generation asian, but asian, and she is half. In California, with so much diversity, this wasn't a problem; in the midwest in smaller areas, it is more so. I know she has a lot of loneliness due to this at a time she really needs it, but her dad refuses to help her with it. I took her to China for a month two years ago, and not a single member of his family bothered to contact us ... I think he stopped it, or didn't tell them we were going. I also had the opportunity to speak to a number of chinese about his behavior .... it is NOT typical chinese. In their words, it's sick! Back to passive aggressive personality. As far as the reward vs. punishment. WE have tried them all. This kid has always had everything she ever wanted/needed. $$ has rarely been an issue for her. The real problem has been that, because she is attractive (asian mix kids are very pretty), adults have interfered with things I've expected of her. "Oh, you sweet thing. That's too hard for you. Let your mom do it!" type of thing. "Mom says you can't have that? Oh SURE you can." I didn't figure that one out until we traveled overseas. Amazing the number of Americans who will walk up and talk to a child and ignore the parent. I stopped THAT fast when I realized it! I know she's lonely, and not happy with the situation as it is. But she also is stubborn and thinks she can wait me out. Not this time. It's cost me too much in $$ and energy to go back to letting her get by with it. If she doesn't learn the lesson, so be it. She can choose her lifestyle when she turns 18. BTW, when I joined a community organization that my grandmother used to belong to, and she found out the meetings did not include non-members (and members must be 18 to join), she called her dad and told him I was dumping her ... abandoning her. Guess that tells how much of a social life I've had in 10 years. Right now I'm trying to get her to use a WRITTEN task list daily. She always has the excuse "You didn't tell me that!" ... Since I've kept records of everything I tell her, that's been a surprise for her too. I cannot believe the ways she can try to work out of a chore or situation! For THAT I'll start a thread! Thanks for the encouragement! |
#4
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Introduction
Sorry to jump in here, and top posting too (double sin, 40 lashes with a wet
noodle)........ As another 'survivor' of a passive aggressive, it sounds a bit to me as though the daughter here may be sharing some of the same tendencies........ and I'm not so sure that passive aggressive is a learned behavior anymore than brain-chemical depression is a learned behavior...... step back for a minute: The refusal to "do"...... letting it sit until someone else steps in and does it...... and then no please or thank you, because after all, they didn't actually ASK you to do it....... Sounds P-A, doesn't it? The manipulative behaviors, including the silent treatment until they get their way........ Sounds P-A, doesn't it? The focus on the self-satisfaction, and ignoring everything else as an irritation........ Sounds P-A, doesn't it? It may be worth considering....... and it's extremely difficult to raise a kid who's P-A..... one of my two showed some of the same tendencies........ I've found that what seems to work best is to not let yourself get sucked into the manipulative behaviors....... if they don't 'do', it won't get done....... and when this starts impacting the things they WANT done, it starts to get through.... Hope this helps 'Kate wrote in message ... On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:22:15 -0600, "127.0.0.1" A little background here ... No, our boundaries and restrictions aren't so formal. LOL ... I "sent him to his room" so to speak. The physical distance is a rural area where airline access is more time consuming (no major hub for quick 'disruptive' visits), and the xmas restrictions are less phone contact for awhile while she goes thru these HORRID pre-teen stages. Can you guess? He's no help with any of it, but then he never was. I think he has a tendency to take on 'symptoms' of whatever is around, including pre-pms! Heh... hey, that was MY spouse! Unhappily his behavior is not really fun to be around when you're on the receiving end. I know. I remember. I spent Thanksgiving and xmas having him expect me to wait on him (you know, feed, entertain, etc., when those things are difficult in my household due to dd's behavior and disabilities I have). That was the physical; the constant criticizing and picking are something I tell him to put where he sits, but at xmas he started in on dd, so that's the reason for the restricted calls. If he's not going to help her, get out of the way! is my opinion. In a week I think I heard nothing positive come out of his mouth, certainly not supportive or nurturing. Oh well. It's pretty typical of his passive aggressive approach to things. Sometimes its better, sometimes like this. When its like this, its healthy to keep him at a distance in many ways. He knows that if he messes up too much and pushes too far he will lose the little legal custody he has left. That will NOT stop his visitation or involvement in her life. It will simply take his power to veto on decisions away from him. This is because he has interfered with serious issues in the past, including preventing her from appropriate medical care. It's for her safety. Passive aggressives are not fun, and can be extremely dangerous. Most of my questions here are to find out what y'all do (or might do) in certain situations with her. I do NOT recall pulling nearly as much cr*p when I was this age, although she was a challenge starting several years ago. She definitely has an "attitude" which wasn't helped by daddy and others interfering with key issues. Some of my probs with her are habits she's developed from that, including the typical age-appropriate "duh! what's a coat?" when you ask where their coat is. I've actually started keeping a record of some of the responses I get!!! I see the humor in some, but I'm not able to really laugh about any of it yet. My young'ens are 13, 15 and 24. My daughters were more apt to behave that way... once or twice. I simply said, "Excuse me?" in a tone that let them know that if they persisted, something they didn't like would come from it. My oldest attempted to defy me once. I probably scarred her for life.... I laughed. I'd been waiting for "it" to start. It was a rite of passage in my mind. Actually, she turned out to be a really nice person... someone I'd have as a friend if I wasn't already her mother. Once it's started, though, it's hard to control. One of the better ways of making children that age realize that they are, indeed, most fortunate to be living in a home with a mother like you is to volunteer their time (with you if possible) helping at a shelter for women and children or families. This Chinese New Year, which is observed in my house, was the third holiday (Nov, Dec, now) that she has caused major disruption and, in effect, made it not happen completely. I'm beside myself. In the past, its true, I was pressured to do the holiday anyway because "she's too young, she doesn't understand, she didn't mean it" ... So each time in the past the holiday happened, but it was discussed with her and some consequences happened but she sailed thru happily! This time I had it and shut down my house. No TV, no recreation, nothing until there is satisfactory communication about the problems. (I get the silent treatment too ... sullen, silent, anger ... which I really hate.) Even the school got pulled into the manipulative communication game, for which I ended up taking the responsibility for until I asked them how they liked being jerked around by a 10-year-old! Basically, she has little if any respect or courtesy for adults, although she's not openly hostile ... she's manipulative. She is totally engrossed in self-satisfaction; everything else is an irritation, and if it doesn't meet her instant needs, she resists simply to resist. It has been suggested several times in the past several years that I need help to come in to assist me with my daily or weekly household tasks. I realized a few weeks ago that although that stuff takes me longer, I can still do it. What I can't do is wait hand and foot on a 10-year-old who refuses to do ANYTHING. SHE needs the maid, I don't. And that's even more frustrating. Ok.. this is starting to sound like more than the typical pre-teen defiance. I realize I'm not giving many details here. I just started rambling. I'l try to post issues in a separate thread for responses as I can detail them. I had six siblings with extended family close by and both parents in the household; I do NOT know how to raise an only child with no extended family involvement! Could use some balanced, objective advice that isn't "oh, it's to HARD for her to remember that Thursday is trash night! You need to remember and remind her." It isn't hard to remember. I agree that it is extremely difficult to raise a child with little support... and moreso when you have the other parent creating problems of his/her own. My concern is that something has happened to her that she is not telling you about and she's taking it out on you and everyone else who is close to her... the people who didn't protect her. If her friends have changed, if her schoolwork is less satisfactory than it use to be, and she has changed drastically for the worse at home, it's worth investigating the possibility that someone or something hurt her. I think you'll probably need to find neutral ground and talk to her. I use to take the kids out to a nice dinner one-on-one. It seemed that when I treated them a little special, gave them my exclusive time with no distractions, they were better able to see me as a person and vice versa. I found out a lot during those dinners. Sorry to rant. Nah... don't be. Meanwhile, when you begin to react to your daughter's hijinks, stop for a second, rethink your first reaction, and see if there is a way to stop the situation from escalating. Sometimes quiet words work better like, "When you've calmed down, we can talk about it." or "When you can ask nicely..." to give her a reason to control her behavior and to take yourself out of play. Consider making a list of privileges and how she can earn them rather than a list of chores and punishments. Hope some of this helps. 'Kate |
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