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  #11  
Old January 31st 06, 05:42 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

Again replying to my own post to address beccafromlalaland's accusation
that I only asked questions, and avoided her questions and didn't answer
'any' of them. As in:

"I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?


-- beccafromlalaland "



0:- wrote:

beccafromlalaland wrote:
Why for instance in America are parenting classes only available to
parents after the fact.


There is no such limit. Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can
find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental
health departments, some schools, private instructors are all available.


[[ While you forgot the question mark and I could have passed over this
I presumed a question from the grammar and answered. Is this one of the
'any' I'm supposed to not have answered? I elaborated in fact. ]]

In fact, you can even find on-line classes.

http://tinyurl.com/dastb

After they have been investigated for child
abuse, after their children have been placed in foster care when the
parents are either desperate to get their kids, or so angry that they
refuse to attend parenting workshops.


How would you get them to go to parenting classes until they were
compelled to?


[[ Again your comment, and my response, that is in fact an answer within
a question. You are asking me to get them to classes they don't wan tot
go to by posing the obvious. YOu compell them by law. People assigned to
traffic school can be as angry as they want, but they stand to pay a
hefty fine and even lose their driving priveleges if they do not attend. ]]


The classes are everywhere. They are even free in some places.

http://tinyurl.com/7fzqp

I know in my state parenting
classes are available but certainly not encouraged for at risk parents
(young parents,families on assistance, single parents, parents who grew
up in abusive households)


[[ I find it odd that you chopped the above comment by you from later
posts .. then shortly thereafter asked me if I was "dodging." ]]

How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not
publicized enough?


[[ When you quoted by attribution later, these clarifying questions of
mine were left lonely and dangling without your previous comment for the
obvious understanding that I wanted to know something relevant to your
statement. ]]

I think before we can even consider a non-spanking law we need to
address the issues of these at risk parents, get them into parenting
classes, give them mentors, teach them appropriate discipline
strategies. Give them a support network so when they feel overwhelmed
with the responsibilities of parenthood they can get help BEFORE there
is a problem.


Two problems, I think.


[[ Again, how am I dodging if you pose a solution and I discuss the
issues and difficulties from the real world, as I do below? ]]

One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS
intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued
with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed
"early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered
high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood
rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the Constitution.

One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to
be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child
protection statutes.

Thus we come around again to the law.

Two, money.

Who will provide this support network?

Churches, local interest groups, even the local health department
schedules a variety of things to get young parents involved, especially
new mothers, even providing child care during the meetings.

The problem is that the families that are targetted for this help can
refuse to respond, or simply not be interested, and that is certainly
their right. I do not support compelled services unless the level of
problem has reached a proportion that has involved child protection
services by the state.

And while at one time such programs could access hospital records for
new births, and visit the new mothers directly, they are now proscribed
from doing so by HIPAA. Any PR or marketing of the programs have to be
addressed into to already crowded media advertising world.

This is precisely why I support a law addressing the actual behavior.

There is nothing; poverty, large families, single parenting that MAKES a
parent spank a child.

A law will address the issue directly. It will mean nothing to those
that already do these things for their children. They won't be effected.
They already actively seek alternatives to CP. Collect and study
information about child development. Provide themselves with strees
reducing activities and strategies for when parenting overwhelms them.

In the law, I'll insist on having these issues addressed.

There must be public funding support for programs mandated to help those
charged and convicted of spanking. If not, there's little point in the
law, though these things in the past have tended to sort themselves out.

I imagine when women's sufferage was finally a fact there was some
support for teaching women the political processes they were about to
engage in.

There was supposed to be help for freed slaves, but that didn't go as well.

The law banning spanking would work for all concerned. The parent
convicted of spanking could then DEMAND state support for them to
rehabilitate. At least some reimbursement, some child care, some
training monies.

I'd be happy with that.

These problems you have mentioned are ones that have been addressed
before at great length by society. They have done pretty much all they
can do, sans constitutional violations, at this point. Now it's time to
move forward with a law.


[[ You accused me of dodging. Where? This elaborate and informational
commentary of mine was 'dodging?' Please explain. ]]

--
beccafromlalaland


Kane
PS, Embry and Malfetti found that there was a change from baseline
counted street entries from 9.7 per hour by children, to, after the
program, 0.7 entries per hour.

What was also remarkable was that the rate of "safe play" praise by
parents also shot up after they had been trained. In fact, 33 times more
such incidents after the program than before at measuring for the baseline.

Even children having a very low baseline street entry rate, dropped
considerably after the training was in place. 1.8 entries per hour, as
opposed to 0.2 per hour with the program in place. Only 10% of the
baseline rate.

Pretty remarkable when one considers that parents who spanked before had
children that attemped entries at the highest rate of all per hour. K~


[[ In fact, becca, I gave some information above that you pointedly
ignored. As you said you would. I could accuse you of dodging, but I
have not, only offerred the information and encouraged your commenting
or discussion. Who's dodging here? ]]

Kane



--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006
  #12  
Old January 31st 06, 05:54 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

This is the last in the series of my own posts that I examine to see if
in fact beccafromlalaland by asking me the following is accurate:
"I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?


-- beccafromlalaland "

[[ Sadly it's so chopped with removal of some commentary by becca that
indeed in parts it does appear as though I had asked questions...but she
cut her OWN portions at times...leaving my question dangling as though
it was out of thin air rather than relevant and congruent with the
progression of the discussion. ]]

0:- wrote:
beccafromlalaland wrote:

0:- Wrote:


There is no such limit. Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can
find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental
health departments, some schools, private instructors are all
available.

In fact, you can even find on-line classes.


In my area no one talks about parenting classes until it's too late.


[[ I certainly don't have an answer for that...since I don't know why
that condition exists in her area, and much less so in mine. ]]

Who is responsible for that?


[[ Hence my question above. ]]


They are not encouraged, they are only available at certain times that
make it inconveniant for working parents, no child care is available.



Sorry about your area. Have you researched more?


[[ What could I possible answer but concern and a question of my own..to
see if in fact becca had done a thorough search. There are certainly
more options available than "no child are is available." Mother's coops,
for instance are all over the place these days. ]]

Most low income families that I know do not have a computer, nor do
they know how to use the internet, nor do they have time to go to the
library to take a class on how to use the internet. So how are they to
gain access to parenting classes?



I have no idea. How do they find time to watch TV? Bowl? Tavern hang?

Check again with your county health department for available child
rearing classes.


[[ I answer the question and ask one as well, highly relevant to the
issue.. .I find a great many parents that are on limited incomes do a
lot of couch sitting watching TV, or spending time and money on their
own entertainment, but NOT on improving child rearing skills. Their
choice, of course. I am answering and asking questions....hardly what
could be called "dodging." Unless one speaks Doanese of course. ]]

By the way, I know many low income families and very few lack a
computer. They are just so cheap these days. Used are going for $50 to
a hundred bucks, with software installed, lots of it, including a
browser. And kids are taught computer use in public schools.

I'm still puzzled though that you think the community has some
responsibility above and beyond the parents themselves to aquire better
parenting skills, so they won't feel the need to spank.

Remember, we are talking about making it a law not to spank. That is a
motivator. Just like traffic laws that require being able to pass a
driving test. Or a food handler's permit. Or practicing law. It's the
person's responsibility...not one elses.

No matter how available parenting information might be you cannot force
people to access it unless you have a law that makes it illegal to
spank.

Non consentual spanking is assault if performed on an adult. How can it
logically not be just because it's performed on a child.


[[ I just went on at great lenght to respond directly to becca's
comments and questions. "Dodging?" Where? ]]


Kane

kane Wrote:

How would you get them to go to parenting classes until they were
compelled to?

The classes are everywhere. They are even free in some places.



How would you force people to obey a no-spanking law without first
setting up a support network, and educational resources?

The classes are not everywhere.

kane Wrote:

How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not
publicized enough?


See above.


[[ Here I asked a perfectly understandable question to a statement that
has been chopped from the thread...why I cannot say, I certainly didn't
remove anything in this thread at any point. becca claimed they families
were not encouraged. I want to know more so I can answer more. ]]


kane Wrote:

Two problems, I think.

One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS
intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued
with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed
"early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered
high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood
rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the
Constitution.

One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to
be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child
protection statutes.


I was once considered an at risk parent. I was 19 with a newborn, and
a history of family abuse. You know what my local hospital did upon
discharge from the maternity unit. Sent a nurse to my home once a week
for the first 6months of my child's life. She came to check up on my
child, and my physical and emotional recovery. She provided me with
information. She caught my post partum depression. She helped insure
that mother child bond grew properly. If at 6months she felt that we
needed more help she would have continued with her visits, and provided
me with more information.

Sometimes you have to go through the back door to get to the front
door.


kane Wrote:

Two, money.

Who will provide this support network?

Churches, local interest groups, even the local health department
schedules a variety of things to get young parents involved,
especially
new mothers, even providing child care during the meetings.


if you are talking passing of a Federal Law then it should be Federal
Money that pays for the classes, locations, and child care.

Local government would be responsible for the support network. In my
area most support groups for new parents, or parents with problems are
either offered at the Intermediate school district, or at the
Hospital.

kane Wrote:

The problem is that the families that are targetted for this help can
refuse to respond, or simply not be interested, and that is certainly
their right. I do not support compelled services unless the level of
problem has reached a proportion that has involved child protection
services by the state.


yes that is certainly their right, but even having the help publicized
to a level that will continually remind them that it is available would
be a step in the right direction. As it stands now, you only hear of
parenting classes if you are ordered to take them or you are looking
for them.

Yet you support a law to prohibit spanking, without first having
programs in place to teach parents new techniques.

If we were a bunch of cannabals who didn't know how to butcher a cow,
would you be in support of a law that prohibits people eating without
first teaching people how to butcher a cow? (weird analogy, but I
think it works)

kane Wrote:

And while at one time such programs could access hospital records for
new births, and visit the new mothers directly, they are now
proscribed
from doing so by HIPAA. Any PR or marketing of the programs have to be
addressed into to already crowded media advertising world.


As of september 2004 my local hospital was still sending nurses to new
mother's homes.


kane Wrote:

There is nothing; poverty, large families, single parenting that MAKES
a
parent spank a child.


I disagree. perhaps the situation doesn't "make" them spank...but it
certainly makes it easier to spank.

kane Wrote:

A law will address the issue directly.


How?? Do the laws against murder address the issues that cause a
person to murder? No they just provide incentive not to, and
punishment when you do.

Speaking of punishment...what type of punishment do you have in mind
for this law?


kane Wrote:

. Provide themselves with strees
reducing activities and strategies for when parenting overwhelms them.


Many single parent households, poor households, etc. Don't have the
luxuery of a parental "time out" They have to work, they have to
parent, they have to clean the house, they don't have the help needed
to take a break.


--
beccafromlalaland





[[ The above is a series of odd juxtapositions of my prior comments, and
becca's responses WITHOUT MY REPONSE..as I made NONE, until just today,
because I had not seen this post. And the out of context cut and pasting
reminds me of someone. ]]

Kane


--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006
  #13  
Old January 31st 06, 05:59 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

Doan wrote:
That's just typical of ignoranus kane0. Be prepare for the adhom
from him, beccafromlalalan. ;-)


You post to another with an ad hom at me and warn her to watch for me
using ad hom. Interesting, isn't it.

Her question asking if I was dodging based on my non answers to her
questions and only asking questions myself amounts to a false
accusation. Reading over my posts in this thread and my reponses there
is no such thing going on on my part. It's you that dodge Doan, constantly.

Doan

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:


I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?


I invite either you are "becca" to prove that I "... only responded to
those items that," I " ... could ask more questions...and did not answer
any of my questions."

It's your kind of phony balony, Doan. The usual.

You lost this debate years ago on facts, now you just dribble along.

0:-




--
beccafromlalaland





--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006
  #14  
Old February 3rd 06, 01:39 AM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
Posts: 108
Default

Kane,

While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed to answer the second half.

The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop.

The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your proposed law.

Read the second half of my post.


and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes.
__________________
Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
  #15  
Old February 3rd 06, 07:40 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:


Kane,

While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed
to answer the second half.

The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending
behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop.

The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your
proposed law.

Read the second half of my post.


and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey
on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words
are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes.


--
beccafromlalaland


Thanks, beccafromlalaland! That's very neat. How do I join the board?

Doan


  #16  
Old February 3rd 06, 06:06 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


beccafromlalaland wrote:
Kane,

While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed
to answer the second half.

The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending
behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop.

The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your
proposed law.

Read the second half of my post.


Your post claiming I failed to respond to these things was posted on
Jan 30th at 7:32 pm

.................................................. ......................
7. beccafromlalaland
Jan 30, 7:29 pm show options
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking
From: beccafromlalaland
- Find messages by
this author
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 03:29:37 +0000
Local: Mon, Jan 30 2006 7:29 pm
Subject: If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask
more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?

--
beccafromlalaland
.................................................. ........

All the responses I made to your question posed to me from you first
post...the one suggesting an exploration of socio economic issues
follow. I'll confine myself to cut and paste from my own posts, leaving
yours out, but respond to precisely what you now claim I did not.

And referring to your current claim of "The one that addressed HOW you
would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING
people how to stop. The One that asked what Punishment you propose for
violating your proposed law. "

You postulated that classes were available only after the fact and not
available. I responded with:

"Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can
find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental
health departments, some schools, private instructors are all
available.

In fact, you can even find on-line classes.

http://tinyurl.com/dastb "

How is that NOT answering your question about teaching?

In fact, I answered WHY we cannot get them educated before the fact
BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO COMPELL THEM UNLESS WE BRING SOME
CHARGE AGAINST THEM. And I pointed out that is what family court and
CPS is FOR.

"One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS
intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued
with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed
"early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered
high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood
rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the Constitution.

One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to
be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child
protection statutes. "

I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, did I not?

I know of know legal policy that can get people educated before the
fact.

I do know though that efforts have been made by encorporating such
education into the highschool classroom in some areas. I did not
mention that before, because it IS NOT A MANDATORY class subject. And
it can't be made to be.

Unless you wish to try and convince parents it's more important than
math.

In fact I went on at great length to answer your question in

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...6a3da36?hl=en&
4. 0:-
Jan 29, 5:16 pm hide options
Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking
From: "0:-" - Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:16:19 -0800

Then in your message #5 that followed you asked me how one could force
them to obey a law they had been provided services to allow them to:

"How would you force people to obey a no-spanking law without first
setting up a support network, and educational resources?

The classes are not everywhere. "

I respond in message #5 as follows:

"Check again with your county health department for available child
rearing classes. "

"I'm still puzzled though that you think the community has some
responsibility above and beyond the parents themselves to aquire better
parenting skills, so they won't feel the need to spank.

Remember, we are talking about making it a law not to spank. That is a
motivator. Just like traffic laws that require being able to pass a
driving test. Or a food handler's permit. Or practicing law. It's the
person's responsibility...not one elses.

No matter how available parenting information might be you cannot force
people to access it unless you have a law that makes it illegal to
spank. "

I even pointed out how to access free computer access, and cheap
computers.

And you followed all my attempts to answer the questions you actually
asked with this insult:

"
7. beccafromlalaland
I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask
more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.
Dodging? "

Then in your message, #5 in the thread, you asked:

"Speaking of punishment...what type of punishment do you have in mind
for this law? "

Which I had ALREADY COVERED IN DEPTH in my prior post, #4 in the
series.

Read it again and tell me that I did not answer your question.

It may not be to YOUR satisfaction, but I sure as hell did NOT ignore
your question.

I included only ONE penalty...(and I don't consider it a "punishment"
that they be required to "rehabilitate."

So obviously I did not advocate a punishment. If that is what you
consider not answering your question, think you should read my message
again, or are you playing "Doan" on me now?

Pick a single word and hairsplit down to the point YOU can make a claim
about MY intent or failure that is NOT actually in evidence?

Did you miss where I DID in fact answer that question in the only way
it can be answered, by referrence to current child abuse statutes (and
one would presume their penalties listed) in the states?

"The only legal action would be child
protection statutes."

I did not LIST the penalties because I would have to review all states
to do so.

and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey
on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words
are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes.


My own newsreaders and google manage to do the same. I'm not sure what
you are referring to, SINCE YOU DON'T INCLUDED my "actually neatly
Quoted " comments in this post where you are simply referring to them.

In fact the ONLY instance of my comments in this post ARE MY OWN CUT
AND PASTE from prior posts.

You did it again. You accused me of something but left all referrences
to it ABSENT from view.

--
beccafromlalaland


And you have NOT, yourself, responded to many of MY questions and
commentary. Why is THAT?

I have answered all of yours.

Kane

  #17  
Old February 3rd 06, 06:12 PM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant


beccafromlalaland wrote:
Kane,

While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed
to answer the second half.

The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending
behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop.


You do by the way understand how incongruent that question is, don't
you?

I said, by emposing state states on child abuse that exist NOW. I'm not
going to list them all.

The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your
proposed law.


I answered that and you are now doing what amounts to harrassment. Very
Doanlike harrassment.


Read the second half of my post.


I read it all, and answered it all, and responded in another posted
reply to this same message with more detailed information citations of
prior posts and all.

and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey
on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words
are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes.


That makes no difference how the formatting is done. If it's missing,
it's missing because you left it out.

--
beccafromlalaland


Doan is pulling your chain and you are obeying. He must be pleased to
have created a little servant.

0:-

  #18  
Old February 4th 06, 02:41 AM posted to alt.parenting.spanking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant

Doan wrote:
That's just typical of ignoranus kane0. Be prepare for the adhom
from him, beccafromlalalan. ;-)


Only to harassment, and lies, unlike you Doan.

Hence, it's not typical, and further that would make it misleading on
your part.

You are lying, in other words.

Why do you lie about me?

So, simply to harass?

You seem to be attempting to woe "becca" rather energetically.

Doan


0:-


On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:


I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more
questions...and did not answer any of my questions.

Dodging?


--
beccafromlalaland





--
Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be,
the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very
alien he doth appear? Kane 2006
  #19  
Old February 4th 06, 05:02 AM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
Posts: 108
Default

Kane,

You're right I did edit some of what you wrote. I took out items that were irrelevant to what I wished to ask you or comment on. For example the URL you provided for online parenting classes. It was unnecessary for me to quote the URL, it would have been redundant as I had not comment on the URL in question.

When I removed my comments that triggered your comments/questions/rebuttal leaving your comments "lonely and dangling" I did so that those reading along didn't have to sift through 300lines of dialogue to catch up to what we are talking about, and I presumed that you would know/remember what our conversation was about. Perhaps I presumed wrongly.

As for you quoting the Embry study again...you cannot accuse me of dodging because I had already stated I would not be baited into a long drawn out discussion on a teeny tiny report from 25yrs ago.

To answer your question regarding who is responsible for the lack of available parenting classes in my area. The State and Federal government. There is no funding.

My comment "see above" in response to your question "How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not
publicized enough?" was to save myself time typing out the answer because i had just answered it above. You have a knack for asking the same questions several ways trying to get different answers so you can trip people up with their words.

I split up one very long paragraph of yours so I could comment on individual portions in the hopes that it would be less confusing. But I see you were confused by it. Perhaps you should carefully read next time.



You keep saying that you responded to

"The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending
behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop.

The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your
proposed law."

I have read and reread your posts...and you did NOT answer these questions. If you feel you did, perhaps you can do a little copy and paste yourself in your next messege and point them out to me.


I assume you are intelligiant enough to figure out which portions of your extensive butt cover....erm clarification of your prior posts I am responding to...but I've been wrong before.
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Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
  #20  
Old February 4th 06, 05:06 AM
beccafromlalaland beccafromlalaland is offline
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First recorded activity by ParentingBanter: Dec 2005
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Doan,

Go to parentingbanner.com in the bluish tool bar at the top should be a button to click to subscribe or join or something along those lines. Being able to directly quote people makes things easier.

Although I didn't quote Kane in my prior post because it would have been more confusing trying to filter through the bs to get to the heart of what he was trying to say.
__________________
Becca

Momma to two boys

Big Guy 3/02
and

Wuvy-Buv 8/05
 




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