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Roman Catholicism vs. Protestant Christianity debate



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 31st 07, 06:08 PM posted to free.christians,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.revisionism,alt.parenting.solutions
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Posts: 16
Default Roman Catholicism vs. Protestant Christianity debate

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=194569

Are Catholics Christians? -- Bible John vs. seebs

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Bible John and
seebs who will debate the following resolution:

"Resolved: that a true Catholic cannot be a true Christian."

Bible John will affirm and seebs will oppose. The debate will have 4
rounds and Bible John will go first, per the parameters.

A Peanut Gallery is set up in the General Religious Discussions forum
for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Enjoy the debate!

Default Round

Hello everyone and I want to welcome you to the debate. First before
we start I want to introduce myself. The names John Wolf and I run the
ministry Church Education Resource Ministries, which can be found at
www.cerm.info. I am of the Reformed Baptist/Baptistic Fundamentalist
tradition, and I wanted to make that 100% clear before we started. In
previous debates I have only said that I was Fundamentalist, and in
doing so have possibly confused others. First I'm sure you are aware
of the many King James Version Only Armenian Fundamental believers,
which all too often get confused with reformed. A KJVO church is
really much different than a Reformed Fundamental church. Second
despite what some in the peanut Galleries may say, I never once stated
that all Armenians were unsaved.

In this debate I will try to be as sensitive to my opponent as
possible for many reasons. When I was at school I had a friend who was
attracted to liturgical churches, and eventually left the Reformed
Baptistic Fundamental Bible Church that we both were attending. He
left our church to attend some Catholic, Lutheran or other liturgical
environment. I feel sorry for him, as this in my view was his first
step down the slide to theological liberalism. But in some ways I
could understand why he did what he did. This friend was very excited
about Theology, and gravitated very much to the many great Theologians
of the past. The Reformed Baptistic Fundamental Bible Church did not
teach anything other than the Bible and they valued the bold Bible
preaching and Teaching of the Word of God. What historical Theologians
had to say meant almost nothing at this church. My opponent like my
friend values Theology and I want to respect those that value the
study of Theology. My old church (also like my current one) does not
seem to care about anything other than Biblical Theology, and in some
ways I regret their positions. But it's really not uncommon in
Fundamentalist Churches. A poster from the Peanut Galleries messaged
me and told me that Fundamentalists were poor theologians and the best
Theologians were in liturgical churches. I won't argue with his views.

In this debate I will explain why the doctrine of Justification in the
Catholic tradition is unbiblical, and next I will explain why the
Catholic worship of Mary is unbiblical. I am afraid that I will not
have enough time nor space to cover the other unbiblical problems in
Roman Catholicism. I am not an expert on the subject and will not
pretend to be the best opponent for such a debate.

The resources that I will be using in this debate are as follows.

1. The Bible- Mostly the King James and the New American Standard
versions.
2. New Dictionary of Theology
3. A half dozen websites
4. Pastor John MacArthur's exposing Mary worship in Roman
Catholicism CD set

In this round I will be discussing and comparing the Christian and
Catholic versions of the Doctrine of Justification. In the next round
I will be exposing Mary Worship in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Protestant Doctrine of Justification

Justification is a divine act of God, where God himself declares the
sinner to be innocent and free from his or her sins. God declares the
sinner righteous and free from the pit of Hell and eternal separation
from God. In Christian Theology Justification is only through the Lord
Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the
cross at Calvary.

(Rom 5:9 KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved
from wrath through him.

In Christian Theology Justification is a gift of grace and not by
works.

(Rom 3:24 KJV)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in
Christ Jesus:

(Tit 3:7 KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according
to the hope of eternal life.

Justification only comes through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.

(Rom 3:28 KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the
deeds of the law.

(Rom 5:1 KJV)
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ:

If someone receives the Lord Jesus Christ into their hearts and
accepts His sacrifice for their sins they are justified from their
sin. This is quite different from Roman Catholic Theology, which I
will be later discussing.

(Joh 1:12 KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons
of God, even to them that believe on his name:

(1Pe 2:24 KJV)
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we,
being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes
ye were healed.

By doing this these are justified in the sight of God. One of the
major distinctions between Christian Theology and Catholic Theology is
that to the Christian Justification is not by works, but by Grace
alone.

The passage below is the most popular of the grace passages.

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You see in Christian Theology, the Bible makes it very clear that
man's works alone are nothing but dirty stinky rags before an all-
powerful and all mighty God.

Isa 64:6 KJV
(6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities,
like the wind, have taken us away.

God is not in the least impressed with the works of a man. Even the
most clean of unbelievers, is dirty before God. Of course I believe in
degrees of punishment in Hell and degrees of reward in Heaven. I
believe that the most holy of all unbelievers might get a different
Hell than an Adolph Hitler, or a Spiritual Terrorist, but still they
go to the same Hell.

The scripture below is one passage of many that speaks of degrees of
punishment in Hell.
The context in Jude is speaking of the false teachers.

Jud 1:12-13 KJV
(12) These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with
you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water,
carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit,
twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
(13) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering
stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Salvation is a free gift, and cannot be earned. Mankind cannot work
his or her way into salvation and freedom from the pit of Hell.

Once in a Sunday school in a contemporary Evangelical church a pastor
once told a story that helped explain the doctrine of Justification.
The story is below.

Trying to earn your way to salvation is like trying to swim from
California to Hawaii. No man or woman can do it. Some may get closer
to Hawaii than others, yet no one attempting the feat could ever
accomplish it. Olympic swimmers may get the farthest, yet they also
will die. Instead of trying to swim to Hawaii, the safest way to get
there would be to fly. In the same way, what Jesus did was he provided
salvation and freedom from eternal death. Kinda like an airplane will
provide freedom from death in the ocean by trying to swim there.
Accepting Jesus is like accepting a ride in the airplane as a means to
get to Hawaii.

Even one of the most liberal Evangelical Churches in the Bay Area
Peninsula (whom I mailed John MacArthurs book Ashamed of the Gospel,
When the Church Becomes like the World) agrees with me on the doctrine
of Justification. I have never once called this church a cult, nor
have I ever labeled them Spiritual Terrorists. My critics think that I
hate all those that disagree with me, but this is a flat out lie.
While me and this church strongly disagree on our ministry
philosophies, and our theology in many secondary areas, I do realize
that many of the attendees at this church, the staff and pastoral team
will be in Heaven with me. But until that time, I wont associate with
them.

The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification

The Catholic version of the doctrine of Justification is quite
different. Below are some quotes from Catholic doctrine.

"If any one saith, that thy faith alone the impious is justified; in
such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in
order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not
in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement
of his own will; let him by anathema" (From the Council of Trent,
Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and
justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and
justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes
himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and
justification are effected; let him be anathema" (Canon 14).

Do any of you know what the harsh word anathema means? According to
Roman Catholic Theology it means simply excommunication, or in the
Greek it can be translated as accursed and condemned. This language is
very harsh, and what I personally use to refer to certain members of
unorthodox Christian groups on Usenet Newsgroups. In the same way in
Catholic theology, all protestants are unorthodox and anathema. So to
put it simply, in Roman Catholic Theology a Christian doctrine of
Justification is a false doctrine. To the Catholic Theologian
Christianity is false. I think that if Catholics could differentiate
between the orthodox and unorthodox Christians, they might have a
point. But the Catholic Theologian can't tell the difference between
Reformed Baptist/Baptistic Fundamentalism, OneNess Pentecostalism, or
the ecumenical movement of theological liberalism. I have tried to
persuade Catholics that not all Christians are the same, and I have
gotten angry with some of them for stereotyping all Protestants as one
and the same. I have told some of them that my ministry has no
associations with anyone associated with Theological Liberalism, yet
they continue to stereo type and put me into the same category as
them. I hate stereotypes, yet can't do a thing about them.

The Catholic Church does not state anywhere that salvation comes from
grace. Based on my research (and personnel experience with Catholics)
I have heard them quoting a verse in the NT which is below.

Jam 2:24 KJV
(24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.

Catholics believe that works is a part of salvation. I believe they
think this because they read James and the entire NT out of CONTEXT.
If one were to look at the entire CONTEXT of the book of James they
would see that the contrast in the passage is in reference to Dead
Faith vs. Living Faith. Dead faith would be only an acknowledgment as
Jesus as Lord, but without real and pure Regeneration and progressive
Sanctification. When one comes to faith in the Lord Jesus and makes
Him their savior and Lord of their life, then Regeneration and
Sanctification will be present in their lives. Sadly there are dozens
and dozens of professing Christians in the church, that claim Christ,
yet do not live a life that glorifies him.

Mat 7:21-24 NASB
[Mt 7:21] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in
heaven will enter.
[22] "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your
name perform many miracles?'
[23] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM
ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
[24] "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on
them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

As mentioned above in verse 24, Living Faith is a relationship with
Jesus Christ (Regeneration) and a turning away from sin (progressive
Sanctification).

The entire book of 1 John speaks on Sanctification as the central
theme.

1Jo 1:6 KJV
(6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness,
we lie, and do not the truth:

One that claims to know Christ, yet walks in the darkness is a liar
and the truth is not in him or her.

Conclusion

Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone, and requires
human effort in addition to God's grace for salvation. Baptism is one
of the first work requirements on a list of requirements that a
Catholic has to meet in order to be saved.

Read the quote below from Catholic Doctrine.

"Justification has been merited for us by the passion of Christ. It is
granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of
God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of
Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of
God's mercy,"(CCC, par.2020).

Please do not confuse the statement above with Baptismal Regeneration.
Baptismal Regeneration is for the most part a OneNess Pentecostal
doctrine. Catholics believe in Baptismal Justification, which is
entirely different. But neither Baptismal Regeneration nor Baptismal
Justification are taught in the Holy Scriptures. Where Catholics get
these teachings in the Bible is beyond me. They get these teachings by
their traditions of men, rather than the Bible.

Also where Catholics get the teachings that they have to confess their
sins to a priest is also not found in the scriptures.

My only guess (without doing further research on the subject) is that
they get this doctrine from this verse (which taken out of CONTEXT)
can be interpreted incorrectly.

James 5:16 NASB
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another
so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can
accomplish much.

This like many other Catholic doctrines are traditions of men, and not
of God.

Jesus spoke very harshly of those that kept traditions over the Word
of God. I challenge my opponent to show me where in the Bible
Baptismal Justification and penance are taught.

In the next round I will explain why the worship of Mary is
unbiblical, ungodly, and not a practice of a regenerate believer.


John Wolf
Church Education Resource Ministries
www.cerm.info

  #2  
Old January 31st 07, 10:43 PM posted to free.christians,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.revisionism,alt.parenting.solutions
Bible Bob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default Roman Catholicism vs. Protestant Christianity debate

On 31 Jan 2007 09:08:46 -0800, wrote:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=194569

Are Catholics Christians? -- Bible John vs. seebs

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Bible John and
seebs who will debate the following resolution:

"Resolved: that a true Catholic cannot be a true Christian."

Bible John will affirm and seebs will oppose. The debate will have 4
rounds and Bible John will go first, per the parameters.

A Peanut Gallery is set up in the General Religious Discussions forum
for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Enjoy the debate!

Default Round

Hello everyone and I want to welcome you to the debate. First before
we start I want to introduce myself. The names John Wolf and I run the
ministry Church Education Resource Ministries, which can be found at
www.cerm.info. I am of the Reformed Baptist/Baptistic Fundamentalist
tradition, and I wanted to make that 100% clear before we started. In
previous debates I have only said that I was Fundamentalist, and in
doing so have possibly confused others. First I'm sure you are aware
of the many King James Version Only Armenian Fundamental believers,
which all too often get confused with reformed. A KJVO church is
really much different than a Reformed Fundamental church. Second
despite what some in the peanut Galleries may say, I never once stated
that all Armenians were unsaved.


Well at least you didn't say "The names Bond, James Bond." Thanks for
admitting that Jesus Christ has nothing to do with CERM. Since you
"run" it; He doesn't and should be blamed for your foolishness. You
didn't confuse anyone John. People know what you are.

How do you know that all Armenians are not not saved? For all you
know they could all be atheists. Or they could ALL be saved.

In this debate I will try to be as sensitive to my opponent as
possible for many reasons. When I was at school I had a friend who was
attracted to liturgical churches, and eventually left the Reformed
Baptistic Fundamental Bible Church that we both were attending. He
left our church to attend some Catholic, Lutheran or other liturgical
environment. I feel sorry for him, as this in my view was his first
step down the slide to theological liberalism. But in some ways I
could understand why he did what he did. This friend was very excited
about Theology, and gravitated very much to the many great Theologians
of the past. The Reformed Baptistic Fundamental Bible Church did not
teach anything other than the Bible and they valued the bold Bible
preaching and Teaching of the Word of God. What historical Theologians
had to say meant almost nothing at this church. My opponent like my
friend values Theology and I want to respect those that value the
study of Theology. My old church (also like my current one) does not
seem to care about anything other than Biblical Theology, and in some
ways I regret their positions. But it's really not uncommon in
Fundamentalist Churches. A poster from the Peanut Galleries messaged
me and told me that Fundamentalists were poor theologians and the best
Theologians were in liturgical churches. I won't argue with his views.


You sensitive? You are a theological liberal, John. Why do you feel
sory for him being what you are?

In this debate I will explain why the doctrine of Justification in the
Catholic tradition is unbiblical, and next I will explain why the
Catholic worship of Mary is unbiblical. I am afraid that I will not
have enough time nor space to cover the other unbiblical problems in
Roman Catholicism. I am not an expert on the subject and will not
pretend to be the best opponent for such a debate.

The resources that I will be using in this debate are as follows.

1. The Bible- Mostly the King James and the New American Standard
versions.
2. New Dictionary of Theology
3. A half dozen websites
4. Pastor John MacArthur's exposing Mary worship in Roman
Catholicism CD set


A CD stet?????? Why do you need a CD set to understand that Mary is
dead and not able to hear prayers from the living? Why do you need a
CD set to tell you that no verse of Scripture says that Mary ascended?

In this round I will be discussing and comparing the Christian and
Catholic versions of the Doctrine of Justification. In the next round
I will be exposing Mary Worship in the Roman Catholic Church.



The Protestant Doctrine of Justification

Justification is a divine act of God, where God himself declares the
sinner to be innocent and free from his or her sins. God declares the
sinner righteous and free from the pit of Hell and eternal separation
from God. In Christian Theology Justification is only through the Lord
Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the
cross at Calvary.


Declares the sinner innocent? Or does he "remit" their sins? Or is
the sinner bought back (redeemed) by the blood of the Lamb? God does
not declare the sinner free from the pit of hell? No passage says
that. Nor does it mention "eternal separation" from God. Duh! Don't
you ever think things through? If a person is dead how can he be
separated when he "be" no more? You have to "be" (exist) befere you
can experience separation.


(Rom 5:9 KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved
from wrath through him.

In Christian Theology Justification is a gift of grace and not by
works.


Screw Christian theology; it's usually wrong. If you read the verse
you quoted it says "justified by his blood." A work was done by Jesus
Christ. Oh, I see you quoted the verse for me below. But you need
to read it in context. Watch your prepositions (in the Greek)
especially "dia" and "en" in verse 24 where dia is expressed as a line
passing through the center of a circle and en is expressed as a dot
resting and continuing in a circle. The grace travels through Jesus
Christ and the redemption stays put inside of Christ. That's why it
is a one time payment (propitiation).

Romans 3:21-26 KJV
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is
in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in
his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that
are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might
be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


(Rom 3:24 KJV)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in
Christ Jesus:

(Tit 3:7 KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according
to the hope of eternal life.

Justification only comes through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.


Good verse. Forgot that one.

(Rom 3:28 KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the
deeds of the law.

(Rom 5:1 KJV)
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ:

If someone receives the Lord Jesus Christ into their hearts and
accepts His sacrifice for their sins they are justified from their
sin. This is quite different from Roman Catholic Theology, which I
will be later discussing.


Also quite different from fundamentalist theology because no where in
the Bible does it say anything about accepting the Lord Jesus Christ
into one's heart. It says confess Jesus as Lord, and "beleive" in the
heart (not mental ascent "accept" that God raised Jesus from the dead.
What you are saying is "I beleive in Jesus therefore I am saved."
That is not what the word of God requires. We don't need to accept
Jesus sacrifice because the sacrifice wasn't made to us. The
sacrifice was to God; not us.

(Joh 1:12 KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons
of God, even to them that believe on his name:


You got a problem with that verse because contextually it applies to
those who lived prior to Jesus Christ. Read verse 13.

(1Pe 2:24 KJV)
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we,
being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes
ye were healed.



By doing this these are justified in the sight of God. One of the
major distinctions between Christian Theology and Catholic Theology is
that to the Christian Justification is not by works, but by Grace
alone.


John, learn how to read. It speaks about what Christ did and does;
not what we do.

The passage below is the most popular of the grace passages.

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You see in Christian Theology, the Bible makes it very clear that
man's works alone are nothing but dirty stinky rags before an all-
powerful and all mighty God.


What verse says that? Your theologian must be on some wacko drugs.
Works can be good and do earn eternal rewards; so they are not dirty
stinky rags.

Isa 64:6 KJV
(6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities,
like the wind, have taken us away.


That was spoken to Israel before Christ came; different dispensation.
Did you notice the word "as". It "as filthy rags" not "are filty
rags".

God is not in the least impressed with the works of a man. Even the
most clean of unbelievers, is dirty before God. Of course I believe in
degrees of punishment in Hell and degrees of reward in Heaven. I
believe that the most holy of all unbelievers might get a different
Hell than an Adolph Hitler, or a Spiritual Terrorist, but still they
go to the same Hell.


That's not true. He gives rewards for works that are in harmony with
His will. Ever heard of the "crowns"?

The scripture below is one passage of many that speaks of degrees of
punishment in Hell.
The context in Jude is speaking of the false teachers.

Jud 1:12-13 KJV
(12) These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with
you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water,
carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit,
twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
(13) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering
stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


Where do you see the word "hell" in those verses? Or "degrees of
punishment in hell? Learn how to read. Follow your pronouns.

Salvation is a free gift, and cannot be earned. Mankind cannot work
his or her way into salvation and freedom from the pit of Hell.


Where does the Bible speak of a pit of hell? The phrase "pit of hell"
is not used in the Bible. The verses you would probably cite a

Isaiah 14:15 KJV
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Which was spoken to a certain entity that tried to ascend to the
throne of God. The Hebrew word translated "hell" is "sheol"; the
grave - not the lake of fire (shoel is the equivalent of hades). That
verse does not apply to men.

The only other verse where hell and pit occur is the following verse
which also does not apply to men in general.

Ezekiel 31:16 KJV
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him
down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of
Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be
comforted in the nether parts of the earth.


Learn how to read the Bible so that you won't keep inventing false
doctrines.

Once in a Sunday school in a contemporary Evangelical church a pastor
once told a story that helped explain the doctrine of Justification.
The story is below.

Trying to earn your way to salvation is like trying to swim from
California to Hawaii. No man or woman can do it. Some may get closer
to Hawaii than others, yet no one attempting the feat could ever
accomplish it. Olympic swimmers may get the farthest, yet they also
will die. Instead of trying to swim to Hawaii, the safest way to get
there would be to fly. In the same way, what Jesus did was he provided
salvation and freedom from eternal death. Kinda like an airplane will
provide freedom from death in the ocean by trying to swim there.
Accepting Jesus is like accepting a ride in the airplane as a means to
get to Hawaii.

Even one of the most liberal Evangelical Churches in the Bay Area
Peninsula (whom I mailed John MacArthurs book Ashamed of the Gospel,
When the Church Becomes like the World) agrees with me on the doctrine
of Justification. I have never once called this church a cult, nor
have I ever labeled them Spiritual Terrorists. My critics think that I
hate all those that disagree with me, but this is a flat out lie.
While me and this church strongly disagree on our ministry
philosophies, and our theology in many secondary areas, I do realize
that many of the attendees at this church, the staff and pastoral team
will be in Heaven with me. But until that time, I wont associate with
them.


You got something in writing that says that John MacArthur agrees with
you? Since he obviously knows more than you; shouldn't you have said
"I agree with my god told me to think."

The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification

The Catholic version of the doctrine of Justification is quite
different. Below are some quotes from Catholic doctrine.

"If any one saith, that thy faith alone the impious is justified; in
such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in
order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not
in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement
of his own will; let him by anathema" (From the Council of Trent,
Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and
justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and
justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes
himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and
justification are effected; let him be anathema" (Canon 14).

Do any of you know what the harsh word anathema means? According to
Roman Catholic Theology it means simply excommunication, or in the
Greek it can be translated as accursed and condemned. This language is
very harsh, and what I personally use to refer to certain members of
unorthodox Christian groups on Usenet Newsgroups. In the same way in
Catholic theology, all protestants are unorthodox and anathema. So to
put it simply, in Roman Catholic Theology a Christian doctrine of
Justification is a false doctrine. To the Catholic Theologian
Christianity is false. I think that if Catholics could differentiate
between the orthodox and unorthodox Christians, they might have a
point. But the Catholic Theologian can't tell the difference between
Reformed Baptist/Baptistic Fundamentalism, OneNess Pentecostalism, or
the ecumenical movement of theological liberalism. I have tried to
persuade Catholics that not all Christians are the same, and I have
gotten angry with some of them for stereotyping all Protestants as one
and the same. I have told some of them that my ministry has no
associations with anyone associated with Theological Liberalism, yet
they continue to stereo type and put me into the same category as
them. I hate stereotypes, yet can't do a thing about them.

The Catholic Church does not state anywhere that salvation comes from
grace. Based on my research (and personnel experience with Catholics)
I have heard them quoting a verse in the NT which is below.

Jam 2:24 KJV
(24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.

Catholics believe that works is a part of salvation. I believe they
think this because they read James and the entire NT out of CONTEXT.
If one were to look at the entire CONTEXT of the book of James they
would see that the contrast in the passage is in reference to Dead
Faith vs. Living Faith. Dead faith would be only an acknowledgment as
Jesus as Lord, but without real and pure Regeneration and progressive
Sanctification. When one comes to faith in the Lord Jesus and makes
Him their savior and Lord of their life, then Regeneration and
Sanctification will be present in their lives. Sadly there are dozens
and dozens of professing Christians in the church, that claim Christ,
yet do not live a life that glorifies him.

Mat 7:21-24 NASB
[Mt 7:21] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in
heaven will enter.
[22] "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your
name perform many miracles?'
[23] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM
ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
[24] "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on
them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

As mentioned above in verse 24, Living Faith is a relationship with
Jesus Christ (Regeneration) and a turning away from sin (progressive
Sanctification).

The entire book of 1 John speaks on Sanctification as the central
theme.

1Jo 1:6 KJV
(6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness,
we lie, and do not the truth:

One that claims to know Christ, yet walks in the darkness is a liar
and the truth is not in him or her.

Conclusion

Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone, and requires
human effort in addition to God's grace for salvation. Baptism is one
of the first work requirements on a list of requirements that a
Catholic has to meet in order to be saved.

Read the quote below from Catholic Doctrine.

"Justification has been merited for us by the passion of Christ. It is
granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of
God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of
Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of
God's mercy,"(CCC, par.2020).

Please do not confuse the statement above with Baptismal Regeneration.
Baptismal Regeneration is for the most part a OneNess Pentecostal
doctrine. Catholics believe in Baptismal Justification, which is
entirely different. But neither Baptismal Regeneration nor Baptismal
Justification are taught in the Holy Scriptures. Where Catholics get
these teachings in the Bible is beyond me. They get these teachings by
their traditions of men, rather than the Bible.

Also where Catholics get the teachings that they have to confess their
sins to a priest is also not found in the scriptures.

My only guess (without doing further research on the subject) is that
they get this doctrine from this verse (which taken out of CONTEXT)
can be interpreted incorrectly.

James 5:16 NASB
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another
so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can
accomplish much.

This like many other Catholic doctrines are traditions of men, and not
of God.

Jesus spoke very harshly of those that kept traditions over the Word
of God. I challenge my opponent to show me where in the Bible
Baptismal Justification and penance are taught.

In the next round I will explain why the worship of Mary is
unbiblical, ungodly, and not a practice of a regenerate believer.


John Wolf
Church Education Resource Ministries
www.cerm.info



......
BB
http://www.biblebob.net
  #3  
Old February 1st 07, 12:41 AM posted to free.christians,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.revisionism,alt.parenting.solutions
duke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Roman Catholicism vs. Protestant Christianity debate

On 31 Jan 2007 09:08:46 -0800, wrote:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=194569

Are Catholics Christians? -- Bible John vs. seebs


Yes, WE of the RCC are THE Chruch founded by Christ in 33AD. We are based on
the words in the 4 Gospels, which are the words of Christ.

MASS:
Do this in memory of me - Mat 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, 1Cor 11.

SACRAMENTS:
Baptism - John 3:5-6, Mat 28:19
Holy Eucharist - Mat 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, 1 Cor 11.
Confession - John 20:22-23, Mat 9:2-8
Matrimony - Ephesians 5:31
Confirmation - Ephesians 1:13, Acts 8:14-17, 19:5-6,
Holy Orders - Acts 13:3 & 14:23, John 20:22, 1 & 2 Tim
Anointing of the Sick - Mark 6:12-13, John 5:14

PAPACY:
Mat 16:13-20, Acts 15:7


duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
  #5  
Old February 1st 07, 04:42 AM posted to free.christians,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.revisionism,alt.parenting.solutions
Pastor Steve Winter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Roman Catholicism vs. Protestant Christianity debate

spake thusly and wrote:

Are Catholics Christians?


What is the difference between the trinity that the
false-christian scum John Wolf worships and the trinity
that the pope worships?

The nutty false-christian scum John Wolf IS a trinity cultist
himself!

The blatant hypocrisy of false-christian scum like John Wolf says
more about them than I ever could. How can these scum like John
Wolf make such a blatant mockery of the Bible and still expect to
be taken seriously.

So far the deceiving, polytheistic false-christian dirt John Wolf
always avoids answering when he is asked what the difference is
between the trinity that he worships and the trinity that the
pope worships. That is because, in spite of his ravings John
Wolf worships the EXACT same "Romanist" god squad.

In what way is John Wolf's Roman idol god squad different from
the popes three headed Roman idol god squad?

In what way is John Wolf's trinity cult baptism different than
the pope's trinity cult baptism?

John Wolf can't answer these questions without making major
admissions, eh?

Pastor Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.apostolic.biz for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
http://tinyurl.com/mxu7o for trinity is antichrist sermon
  #6  
Old February 1st 07, 07:34 AM posted to free.christians,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.revisionism,alt.parenting.solutions
Kikers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Roman Catholicism vs. Protestant Christianity debate

While you're wasting time arguing and dividing. Here's a reprint of graffiti found in Christian (Catholic, Orthodox) neighborhoods in the PA.

"First we'll come for the Saturday people. Then we'll come for the Sunday people."

-A. Kiker
wrote in message oups.com...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=194569

Are Catholics Christians? -- Bible John vs. seebs

This thread has been set up for a formal debate between Bible John and
seebs who will debate the following resolution:

"Resolved: that a true Catholic cannot be a true Christian."

Bible John will affirm and seebs will oppose. The debate will have 4
rounds and Bible John will go first, per the parameters.

A Peanut Gallery is set up in the General Religious Discussions forum
for the rest of us to comment on the debate.

Enjoy the debate!

Default Round

Hello everyone and I want to welcome you to the debate. First before
we start I want to introduce myself. The names John Wolf and I run the
ministry Church Education Resource Ministries, which can be found at
www.cerm.info. I am of the Reformed Baptist/Baptistic Fundamentalist
tradition, and I wanted to make that 100% clear before we started. In
previous debates I have only said that I was Fundamentalist, and in
doing so have possibly confused others. First I'm sure you are aware
of the many King James Version Only Armenian Fundamental believers,
which all too often get confused with reformed. A KJVO church is
really much different than a Reformed Fundamental church. Second
despite what some in the peanut Galleries may say, I never once stated
that all Armenians were unsaved.

In this debate I will try to be as sensitive to my opponent as
possible for many reasons. When I was at school I had a friend who was
attracted to liturgical churches, and eventually left the Reformed
Baptistic Fundamental Bible Church that we both were attending. He
left our church to attend some Catholic, Lutheran or other liturgical
environment. I feel sorry for him, as this in my view was his first
step down the slide to theological liberalism. But in some ways I
could understand why he did what he did. This friend was very excited
about Theology, and gravitated very much to the many great Theologians
of the past. The Reformed Baptistic Fundamental Bible Church did not
teach anything other than the Bible and they valued the bold Bible
preaching and Teaching of the Word of God. What historical Theologians
had to say meant almost nothing at this church. My opponent like my
friend values Theology and I want to respect those that value the
study of Theology. My old church (also like my current one) does not
seem to care about anything other than Biblical Theology, and in some
ways I regret their positions. But it's really not uncommon in
Fundamentalist Churches. A poster from the Peanut Galleries messaged
me and told me that Fundamentalists were poor theologians and the best
Theologians were in liturgical churches. I won't argue with his views.

In this debate I will explain why the doctrine of Justification in the
Catholic tradition is unbiblical, and next I will explain why the
Catholic worship of Mary is unbiblical. I am afraid that I will not
have enough time nor space to cover the other unbiblical problems in
Roman Catholicism. I am not an expert on the subject and will not
pretend to be the best opponent for such a debate.

The resources that I will be using in this debate are as follows.

1. The Bible- Mostly the King James and the New American Standard
versions.
2. New Dictionary of Theology
3. A half dozen websites
4. Pastor John MacArthur's exposing Mary worship in Roman
Catholicism CD set

In this round I will be discussing and comparing the Christian and
Catholic versions of the Doctrine of Justification. In the next round
I will be exposing Mary Worship in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Protestant Doctrine of Justification

Justification is a divine act of God, where God himself declares the
sinner to be innocent and free from his or her sins. God declares the
sinner righteous and free from the pit of Hell and eternal separation
from God. In Christian Theology Justification is only through the Lord
Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the
cross at Calvary.

(Rom 5:9 KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved
from wrath through him.

In Christian Theology Justification is a gift of grace and not by
works.

(Rom 3:24 KJV)
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in
Christ Jesus:

(Tit 3:7 KJV)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according
to the hope of eternal life.

Justification only comes through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.

(Rom 3:28 KJV)
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the
deeds of the law.

(Rom 5:1 KJV)
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ:

If someone receives the Lord Jesus Christ into their hearts and
accepts His sacrifice for their sins they are justified from their
sin. This is quite different from Roman Catholic Theology, which I
will be later discussing.

(Joh 1:12 KJV)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons
of God, even to them that believe on his name:

(1Pe 2:24 KJV)
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we,
being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes
ye were healed.

By doing this these are justified in the sight of God. One of the
major distinctions between Christian Theology and Catholic Theology is
that to the Christian Justification is not by works, but by Grace
alone.

The passage below is the most popular of the grace passages.

Eph 2:8-9 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You see in Christian Theology, the Bible makes it very clear that
man's works alone are nothing but dirty stinky rags before an all-
powerful and all mighty God.

Isa 64:6 KJV
(6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities,
like the wind, have taken us away.

God is not in the least impressed with the works of a man. Even the
most clean of unbelievers, is dirty before God. Of course I believe in
degrees of punishment in Hell and degrees of reward in Heaven. I
believe that the most holy of all unbelievers might get a different
Hell than an Adolph Hitler, or a Spiritual Terrorist, but still they
go to the same Hell.

The scripture below is one passage of many that speaks of degrees of
punishment in Hell.
The context in Jude is speaking of the false teachers.

Jud 1:12-13 KJV
(12) These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with
you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water,
carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit,
twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
(13) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering
stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Salvation is a free gift, and cannot be earned. Mankind cannot work
his or her way into salvation and freedom from the pit of Hell.

Once in a Sunday school in a contemporary Evangelical church a pastor
once told a story that helped explain the doctrine of Justification.
The story is below.

Trying to earn your way to salvation is like trying to swim from
California to Hawaii. No man or woman can do it. Some may get closer
to Hawaii than others, yet no one attempting the feat could ever
accomplish it. Olympic swimmers may get the farthest, yet they also
will die. Instead of trying to swim to Hawaii, the safest way to get
there would be to fly. In the same way, what Jesus did was he provided
salvation and freedom from eternal death. Kinda like an airplane will
provide freedom from death in the ocean by trying to swim there.
Accepting Jesus is like accepting a ride in the airplane as a means to
get to Hawaii.

Even one of the most liberal Evangelical Churches in the Bay Area
Peninsula (whom I mailed John MacArthurs book Ashamed of the Gospel,
When the Church Becomes like the World) agrees with me on the doctrine
of Justification. I have never once called this church a cult, nor
have I ever labeled them Spiritual Terrorists. My critics think that I
hate all those that disagree with me, but this is a flat out lie.
While me and this church strongly disagree on our ministry
philosophies, and our theology in many secondary areas, I do realize
that many of the attendees at this church, the staff and pastoral team
will be in Heaven with me. But until that time, I wont associate with
them.

The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification

The Catholic version of the doctrine of Justification is quite
different. Below are some quotes from Catholic doctrine.

"If any one saith, that thy faith alone the impious is justified; in
such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in
order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not
in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement
of his own will; let him by anathema" (From the Council of Trent,
Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and
justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and
justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes
himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and
justification are effected; let him be anathema" (Canon 14).

Do any of you know what the harsh word anathema means? According to
Roman Catholic Theology it means simply excommunication, or in the
Greek it can be translated as accursed and condemned. This language is
very harsh, and what I personally use to refer to certain members of
unorthodox Christian groups on Usenet Newsgroups. In the same way in
Catholic theology, all protestants are unorthodox and anathema. So to
put it simply, in Roman Catholic Theology a Christian doctrine of
Justification is a false doctrine. To the Catholic Theologian
Christianity is false. I think that if Catholics could differentiate
between the orthodox and unorthodox Christians, they might have a
point. But the Catholic Theologian can't tell the difference between
Reformed Baptist/Baptistic Fundamentalism, OneNess Pentecostalism, or
the ecumenical movement of theological liberalism. I have tried to
persuade Catholics that not all Christians are the same, and I have
gotten angry with some of them for stereotyping all Protestants as one
and the same. I have told some of them that my ministry has no
associations with anyone associated with Theological Liberalism, yet
they continue to stereo type and put me into the same category as
them. I hate stereotypes, yet can't do a thing about them.

The Catholic Church does not state anywhere that salvation comes from
grace. Based on my research (and personnel experience with Catholics)
I have heard them quoting a verse in the NT which is below.

Jam 2:24 KJV
(24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.

Catholics believe that works is a part of salvation. I believe they
think this because they read James and the entire NT out of CONTEXT.
If one were to look at the entire CONTEXT of the book of James they
would see that the contrast in the passage is in reference to Dead
Faith vs. Living Faith. Dead faith would be only an acknowledgment as
Jesus as Lord, but without real and pure Regeneration and progressive
Sanctification. When one comes to faith in the Lord Jesus and makes
Him their savior and Lord of their life, then Regeneration and
Sanctification will be present in their lives. Sadly there are dozens
and dozens of professing Christians in the church, that claim Christ,
yet do not live a life that glorifies him.

Mat 7:21-24 NASB
[Mt 7:21] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in
heaven will enter.
[22] "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your
name perform many miracles?'
[23] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM
ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
[24] "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on
them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

As mentioned above in verse 24, Living Faith is a relationship with
Jesus Christ (Regeneration) and a turning away from sin (progressive
Sanctification).

The entire book of 1 John speaks on Sanctification as the central
theme.

1Jo 1:6 KJV
(6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness,
we lie, and do not the truth:

One that claims to know Christ, yet walks in the darkness is a liar
and the truth is not in him or her.

Conclusion

Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone, and requires
human effort in addition to God's grace for salvation. Baptism is one
of the first work requirements on a list of requirements that a
Catholic has to meet in order to be saved.

Read the quote below from Catholic Doctrine.

"Justification has been merited for us by the passion of Christ. It is
granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of
God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of
Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of
God's mercy,"(CCC, par.2020).

Please do not confuse the statement above with Baptismal Regeneration.
Baptismal Regeneration is for the most part a OneNess Pentecostal
doctrine. Catholics believe in Baptismal Justification, which is
entirely different. But neither Baptismal Regeneration nor Baptismal
Justification are taught in the Holy Scriptures. Where Catholics get
these teachings in the Bible is beyond me. They get these teachings by
their traditions of men, rather than the Bible.

Also where Catholics get the teachings that they have to confess their
sins to a priest is also not found in the scriptures.

My only guess (without doing further research on the subject) is that
they get this doctrine from this verse (which taken out of CONTEXT)
can be interpreted incorrectly.

James 5:16 NASB
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another
so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can
accomplish much.

This like many other Catholic doctrines are traditions of men, and not
of God.

Jesus spoke very harshly of those that kept traditions over the Word
of God. I challenge my opponent to show me where in the Bible
Baptismal Justification and penance are taught.

In the next round I will explain why the worship of Mary is
unbiblical, ungodly, and not a practice of a regenerate believer.


John Wolf
Church Education Resource Ministries
www.cerm.info

  #7  
Old February 2nd 07, 06:38 AM posted to free.christians,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.revisionism,alt.parenting.solutions
Incitatus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Roman Catholicism vs. Protestant Christianity debate

In article .com,
wrote:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=194569

Are Catholics Christians? -- Bible John vs. seebs

SNIP

This is the internet pest John Wolf of the sixty five and more unannounced
aliases yet again

CERM is his scam which he uses to seek funds from the gullible to avoid
actually doing any real work

John has published some interesting material in which he as a non parent
expresses his interest in spanking little girls and boys

Nuff said

More than enuff


++++++++++++
 




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