OT religion and smacking

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...
"KC" skrev i en meddelelse
om...
"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
. dk...
This whole discussion is extremely painful to me. After spending
a lot
of
time on this newsgroup, I have finally arrived to the conclusion
that
Americans are not as primitive and savage as we think, but this
conversation
bombs me back into prejudice again.

You say primitive like it's a bad thing :-) I think we do
(generally
speaking) operate a little more on instincts than you based on
what
other people said about all your kids being in daycare. My
instincts
make it intolerable for me to be separated from my small children.
I
sympathise for all who have to.

Please remember that here small children is usually 13 months or
older. They
are not entitled to day care before that and we have long maternaty
leaves.


To me, small children means those under 3 and 4.
Most school type programs are for kids age 4 and above.

"Chotii" wrote in message . ..


Kate, if I may ask....since 'gun control' means making guns illegal to keep
people from killing each other, of what value are new laws controlling guns,
when it is *already* illegal to kill people (with a gun or anything else)?
I will concede that a firearm makes it easier to kill from a distance; what
it cannot do is prevent killing.

It just seems to me that people who casually break laws will pay no more
attention to 'guns are illegal' than they do to 'killing people is illegal'.
And if you know a way to fix *that*, I'd adore knowing it.

No time to reply -- we're moving today. We may be without internet
access for a week. Will certainly reply when I can.

Kate
and the Bug, 8.5 months

Cathy Weeks wrote:

Bruce and Jeanne wrote in message
...

My best childhood friend lived with a gun in her house. Locked. Given
safety lessons. Then, at 18, because she wasn't doing well at college,
she unlocked the case because she knew where the key was and shot
herself.

If she was bent on suicide, she would have found a way to end her
life, and she wasn't safe regardless of the presence of firearms.
Vilifying guns doesn't help.


I don't buy that argument - it's specious. I don't know if she would
have killed herself using a different method. (WHY do people make this
argument - has this been proven somewhere?)

I DO know that she chose a gun because it was available. Why make it
*easy* by having guns in the house?

Jeanne

Bruce and Jeanne wrote:
Cathy Weeks wrote:


Bruce and Jeanne wrote in message
...


My best childhood friend lived with a gun in her house. Locked. Given
safety lessons. Then, at 18, because she wasn't doing well at college,
she unlocked the case because she knew where the key was and shot
herself.

If she was bent on suicide, she would have found a way to end her
life, and she wasn't safe regardless of the presence of firearms.
Vilifying guns doesn't help.



I don't buy that argument - it's specious. I don't know if she would
have killed herself using a different method. (WHY do people make this
argument - has this been proven somewhere?)


Probably they think it's common sense. I do.


I DO know that she chose a gun because it was available. Why make it
*easy* by having guns in the house?

It would be easy to cut your throat with a razor. Why make suicide easy
by having razors in the house? It would be easy to drive your car
head-on into a building at 90 mph. Why make suicide easy by having cars?

If an adult, like your friend, (or even a near-adult) is bent on
suicide, I don't know what you can possibly do to stop it.

Clisby

"Nikki" wrote in message ...
Tine Andersen wrote:
It
keeps going in my head:: what can you expect from citizens of a
country that still considers guns in private homes normal and
approves of death penalty. We considered this in-human 60 years ago
(or more).

I'm with you on the death penalty but I don't think it is going anywhere.
:-(

I'm not sure how much publicity it got outside of Illinois, but the
(possibly only?) good thing that our last governor (George Ryan) did
was to put a moratorium on the death penalty, after finding out how
many people had been exonerated either shortly before or, sadly, after
they had been executed. He was even nominated for a Nobel Peace prize
for it. The big problem with capital punishment is, it's an awfully
final decision. :-( So, anyhow, maybe there is hope. (Though,
sometimes there is a criminal whose crimes just seem so heinious that
it seems wrong that they should get to go on living...there are times
I am torn...)

So far, ds (age 2.5) has never been spanked. We asked him the other
day, and he had no idea what the word "spanking" meant, in fact! I
definitely think that spanking him would just open up the idea that
hitting is ok, which I'm trying to discourage. (This is a response to
his particular personality, I should note.) Though, we have had to
open up the idea that sometimes you have to fight to defend yourself
or others, due to watching things like The Lion King. Those have
been, umm, interesting conversations.

Irene
mom to Thomas 7/01
& Marcus or Gwendolyn EDD 4/04

"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message
om...

In anything you own, or anything you do, there is inherent risk in
taking on the responsibility. A person who owns a butcher knife has a
higher risk of having an accident or deliberate injury or death than
one who doesn't. Same for cars. Cars in fact, kill many, many more
people than guns do.

For that matter, doctors kill many more people than guns do. Maybe you'll
say "But they're trying to help". Yes, I concede that. But the victims are
just as dead. And there are an awful lot of them.

tongue in cheek
Let's get rid of all the doctors!
/tongue in cheek

--angela

"Irene" wrote in message
om...

So far, ds (age 2.5) has never been spanked. We asked him the other
day, and he had no idea what the word "spanking" meant, in fact! I
definitely think that spanking him would just open up the idea that
hitting is ok, which I'm trying to discourage. (This is a response to
his particular personality, I should note.) Though, we have had to
open up the idea that sometimes you have to fight to defend yourself
or others, due to watching things like The Lion King. Those have
been, umm, interesting conversations.

Since I have already confessed that we *do* spank, I can discuss what I have
observed in the girls as a result of it. And please don't think it doesn't
disturb me. Because it does, and it makes me determined to work harder on
finding other sorts of crime-appropriate punishments.

I have seen the girls spank their toys for 'misbehavior'. I have seen them
spank (in fact) like the spankings they see on the Little Rascals (which to
me appear nothing short of physical abuse and I'm a little more horrified
every time I see them, because *every* parent in the Little Rascals short
films spanks a child at least 20-30 times. I should count next time I
watch.) I have seen them spank over *imagined* wrongdoing.

Yesterday, Alexandra slapped Victoria in the face, because "Victoria wasn't
doing what she told her to do."

I can assure you, she didn't learn this from us. But she seemed to think it
was entirely justified.

I chased A up to the top of the stairs and made her sit there, isolated in
the stairwell, alone for about 5 minutes. She tried to get out before then,
calling down "Mommy, I've learned my lesson about slapping people in the
face," but I wasn't buying it. The stairwell thing seems to work fairly
well. No toys there. No sisters there. Can't see anybody else.

Yes, ladies, I do see how violence begets violence. I just don't
necessarily know what else to do sometimes.

--angela

Marie wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:52:44 -0500, Bruce and Jeanne
wrote:
My best childhood friend lived with a gun in her house. Locked. Given
safety lessons. Then, at 18, because she wasn't doing well at college,
she unlocked the case because she knew where the key was and shot
herself.

That is really, really sad to hear (
But I feel the need to make the point that there are other objects to
commit suicide with...drugs, or a car, or a knife.
Marie

Yes, but people who attempt suicide with a gun are much, much more
likely to end up dead. I don't have statistics handy, but I am sure
they are readily available to support that.

Irene

"Chotii" skrev i en meddelelse
...

"Irene" wrote in message
om...

Since I have already confessed that we *do* spank, I can discuss what I
have
observed in the girls as a result of it. And please don't think it doesn't
disturb me. Because it does, and it makes me determined to work harder on
finding other sorts of crime-appropriate punishments.

Respect!

It takes a quite mature personality to say what you say in this post. It's
easy enough when you have never had the option: Should I spank now? It's
having the option and trying not to use it that's hard.

Cudos from Denmark
Tine

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message . dk...
"KC" skrev i en meddelelse
om...
You can expect a free coountry where people have a right to protect
ourselves. Now that you reminded me that many places in the world do
not have all the rights we have I am extra glad to live here.

That's probably part of the difference. We are not supposed to - I even
believe it's illegal - protect ourselves. Or rather - not supposed to
revenge.


Revenge is illegal here too. We are only allowed to protect
ourselves.



I have never felt it necessary to hit. I have children who rage at me,
but
they recognize my superiority never the less. I do shout once in a
while,
but they know it's over in an instant. Where does hitting of any kind
fit
with AP'ing?

I have frequently wondered what AP'ing and day care have in common.

I admit I don't consider myself AP'er, and it probably doesn't. Apart from
that: I was talking about psysical punishments - not all other aspects of
life. You can't make a intelligent discussion by just saying: I may be doing
this and that, but you are doing something much worse, so there!


I am not a big fan of spanking, so I didn't have an argument against
you for that, but you were the one who brought in so many other things
you disapproved about our culture, so I brought up one thing I
disapprove about your culture.


KC