OT religion and smacking

"Chotii" wrote in message .. .
"Irene" wrote in message
om...

So far, ds (age 2.5) has never been spanked. We asked him the other
day, and he had no idea what the word "spanking" meant, in fact! I
definitely think that spanking him would just open up the idea that
hitting is ok, which I'm trying to discourage. (This is a response to
his particular personality, I should note.) Though, we have had to
open up the idea that sometimes you have to fight to defend yourself
or others, due to watching things like The Lion King. Those have
been, umm, interesting conversations.

Since I have already confessed that we *do* spank, I can discuss what I have
observed in the girls as a result of it. And please don't think it doesn't
disturb me. Because it does, and it makes me determined to work harder on
finding other sorts of crime-appropriate punishments.

I have seen the girls spank their toys for 'misbehavior'. I have seen them
spank (in fact) like the spankings they see on the Little Rascals (which to
me appear nothing short of physical abuse and I'm a little more horrified
every time I see them, because *every* parent in the Little Rascals short
films spanks a child at least 20-30 times. I should count next time I
watch.) I have seen them spank over *imagined* wrongdoing.

Yesterday, Alexandra slapped Victoria in the face, because "Victoria wasn't
doing what she told her to do."

I can assure you, she didn't learn this from us. But she seemed to think it
was entirely justified.

I chased A up to the top of the stairs and made her sit there, isolated in
the stairwell, alone for about 5 minutes. She tried to get out before then,
calling down "Mommy, I've learned my lesson about slapping people in the
face," but I wasn't buying it. The stairwell thing seems to work fairly
well. No toys there. No sisters there. Can't see anybody else.

Yes, ladies, I do see how violence begets violence. I just don't
necessarily know what else to do sometimes.

Some of the things I responded to in Nikki's post apply to this, too,
so I won't repeat myself. One more thought - even though I don't
spank, I do often resort to picking Thomas up to put him in the
"timeout room" (the little hallway by the powder room). (Or in other
situations, for that matter, such as removing him from the toystore
when he doesn't want to leave, and is having a major meltdown.) He's
2.5 now, so I can still pick him up. I realize that eventually I will
need other methods, but I'm hoping I'll be able to use reason a bit
more effectively by the time I can't pick him up anymore! (In other
words, even though I don't spank, I am still using my physical
superiority to control him...)

Irene

(KC) wrote in message . com...
(Irene) wrote in message . com...
Marie wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:52:44 -0500, Bruce and Jeanne
wrote:
My best childhood friend lived with a gun in her house. Locked. Given
safety lessons. Then, at 18, because she wasn't doing well at college,
she unlocked the case because she knew where the key was and shot
herself.

That is really, really sad to hear (
But I feel the need to make the point that there are other objects to
commit suicide with...drugs, or a car, or a knife.
Marie

Yes, but people who attempt suicide with a gun are much, much more
likely to end up dead. I don't have statistics handy, but I am sure
they are readily available to support that.

Even if this is true, I still think the benefits outweigh the risks
because where upstanding people legally own guns crime rates are
reduced.

First of all, I'd just like to point out that I was making a very
focused reply to one very limited aspect of guns in that previous
post. However, I'll bite...


I was saved from at least being robbed by having weapons years ago.
Who knows what else would have happened besides being robbed. My dh
and I lived in a bad neighborhood to live cheap while going to
college, and at first we stuck out like victims because we were too
clean cut for the neighborhood. We came out of a grocery store with a
cart full of groceries, and started putting them in our car. Two men
totally veered off their path to a path that would intersect with us,
and the really weird thing was they were not looking at us even though
their path changed to intersect us. They were trying really hard to
look like they weren't coming toward us. Both my dh and I became
alarmed. He reached in his coat to touch the gun he was carrying, and
I reached in my coat to touch the stungun I was carrying. They very
quickly changed their path again to one that would avoid us. We
suddenly looked alot less like victims. That is the wonderful way
that guns can work to protect you without any violence happening.

First of all, I'm very happy your story ended happily. Not knowing
how you did it, I'm not sure if the actual guns were visible - i.e.,
could you have accomplished the same thing by good acting? Secondly,
if I am understanding what a stungun is, (like a Tazer?) you have a
much smaller danger of someone killing you with it, and it is mainly a
defensive weapon and a much different beast. Unless I am completely
mistaken, owning a stungun would not, for instance, enable one to
commit suicide or suddenly murder your spouse in a fit of rage.

Another thought - personally, guns give me the creeps. My big fear
for using one in self-defense is that it would get taken away from me
and used against me. I did once go to a shooting range (with dh's
close friend who is in the Army and has a gun that he keeps well
locked up) in order to learn a little bit about how guns really work.
I learned that they give me the creeps even more up close, even though
I did better than dh or his friend! His friend is an admittedly bad
shot - fortunately for all of us, he isn't Infantry ;-) I still think
it would probably be valuable for me to learn a little more - if
nothing else, how to recognize whether or not the safety is on, for a
variety of guns. So, while I recognize that for some people, the
benefits outweigh the risks, for me, I'll pass.

Irene

Irene wrote:

Another thought - personally, guns give me the creeps. My big fear
for using one in self-defense is that it would get taken away from me
and used against me.

I've never been in the situation. I'm pretty sure I run a high risk of
getting shot with my own gun. I'm a klutz, I'm a fraidy cat, I'm not quick,
and I'm not sure I could actually shoot a person, I would certainly
hesitate. I've always heard that if you point a gun at someone you'd
better be ready and willing to shoot them or you're going to get shot with
your own gun.

I'm also paranoid that I'd shoot dh or some long lost friend coming through
the door at 3am. I don't think that one is very likely to happen but it is
one of those odd things that won't leave your mind.

Dh's guns are way down in the basement, locked up, and he loads his own
shells. Maybe he could offer the burglar a cup of coffee while he got the
scales out to prepare his ammo, heehee.

--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2)

Ellie,

would mean that in the US where guns seem to be more common and more readily
accepted there would be a much lower crime rate and that seems not to be the
case but I confess I have no statistics either way.

I doubt it would be valid to compare any two societies - too many
variables. But we DO have statistics in the United States to prove that
whenever people are permitted to carry concealed weapons the violent crime
rate always drops.

marvin

Marvin L. Zinn
Reply to:
Using Virtual Access
Windows 2000 build 2600

(XOR) wrote in message . com...
(KC) wrote in message . com...


Even if this is true, I still think the benefits outweigh the risks
because where upstanding people legally own guns crime rates are
reduced. I am more worried about an external threat than an internal
threat at this point as I know my dh and I aren't going to kill
ourselves and we make sure the girls don't have access to our guns.

Whereas my friend and her husband also never worried about such a
thing. They were 'responsible' gun owners. Until one day he flipped
out and pulled the gun on her and their 2 yr old son. Fortunately she
managed to call 911, as he was only _threatening_ to kill himself and
them. She, nor anyone who knew the two of them could have seen a
warning. They were perfect, responsible, seemingly well adjusted
people.


That is so over the top. My dh and I are 100% incapable of such
behavior. I am positive of it. It always shocks me when people don't
trust themselves not to do such behaviors. I remember people saying
everyone is capable of killing like OJ did. I was soooo shocked. I
know I am incapable of such things and want to stay the h*ll away from
those of you who think you are :-)

KC

He has also always commented on how common burglar alarms are in the UK.
They're quite unusual around here, and only normally on homes with a lot
to
lose. So that kind of supports the theory that burglary is more common in
the UK.


The sad thing about burglar alarms is that they are so common, and so
commonly going off when they shouldn't be they've become more of a nuisance
factor than anything else. These days if anyone sees a burglar alarm going
nobody takes much notice of it - or just complains about the noise. We have
a burglar alarm - it didn't stop us being burgled - and it was by children
(aged 13 and 15) which is very common in this area. In fact those two
particular children had created their own little crime wave that night
before they were caught. (8 houses and 11 cars).

Child crime is very common in certain parts of the UK and I'm not sure they
would think twice about whether or not they were likely to get shot.

Ellie

Bruce and Jeanne wrote in message ...

I don't buy that argument - it's specious. I don't know if she would
have killed herself using a different method. (WHY do people make this
argument - has this been proven somewhere?)

Of course not. Don't be silly. It's unprovable. You can't ressurect
the dead and ask them if they would have used a different method if
the gun hadn't been present.

On the other hand... repeat suicide attempts by teens often DO take
different routes. When one attempt fails, the parents remove the
method, then a few months later the teen tries again, with a different
method.

Common sense also suggests that if someone truly wants to die, they
will make it happen. Period. Nothing anyone can do about it.

AND it is true that suicide exists in places where there are no guns.
Hence the fact that people slit their wrists, hang themselves, jump
off bridges, swallow pills, etc. (And sometimes people kill themselves
using this method even when guns ARE present).

I'm sorry you are hurting due to the loss of your friend. It truely
is sad. But blaming guns makes little sense - it's like abusing the
bearer of bad tidings. I'm sorry for her for the fact that she felt
doing so was necessary, over something as unimportant as bad grades.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

"H Schinske" wrote in message
...
wrote:
In a play situation I've seen dolls get *much* worse treatment than that.
"You're bad, I'm going to throw you on top of the house," that kind of
thing.
It wouldn't usually occur to me that it was anything but ordinary childish
tyranny and self-assertion.


I happened to be one of the cruelest mothers to my dolls. I was a funny mix
of tomboy/girly-girl (perhaps due to the taunts of uncles, Joy the boy,
partly girl?) I would take pins and scratch my dolls eyeballs and mark up
their backs, hands and feet with scratches. Took a pen to her, too! I
loved to see how high I could throw her, and I tried to make my sisters do
all this stuff, too. I still have the precious thing, and I love her.
Thank goodness, my doll play wasn't an indicator of how I'd really parent!

Joy

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...

"Chotii" skrev i en meddelelse
...
I understand things are different in, for example, Denmark. Also the UK,
and
Australia. I don't know what those folks do when placed in such a
situation.
I also don't care. They're not responsible for the safety and welfare of
my
children. I am. So, we own a gun (and I know how to use it, and have all
the
necessary paperwork for its legality, and make gun safety a regular part
of
our weekly or monthly routine, right along with teaching the kids our
phone
number and address, and we have a gun safe).

For one thing - the nabour is never farther away than you can see him -
most
people live in cities, where you can shout for help. In my nabourhood I
believe the nabour would come if I shouted. It may be why I can't see the
reason for guns.

I'm trying to picture myself running into my cul-de-sac and hollering for
help. If my neighbors could hear me (doubtful, given the ubiquity of
televisions and other ambient noise, plus the thickness of the walls of
houses) there's a very good chance they wouldn't even be home. Or maybe they
would, but asleep. Or maybe one would, but would think it was the kids in
the street. Don't get me wrong, I know all my neighbors at least a little
bit, and I think they're a great bunch. But I have no faith that even if I
could *get* to a location where I could call for help (which would mean
exiting the house, and presumably taking 4 children with me - I certainly
wouldn't leave them inside if I thought there was that much of a threat?)
that I would be heard. And I only live in the suburbs. If I lived further
out in the country, this would be compounded.

Incidentally, one of my neighbors *is* a police officer (and her husband is
a fireman - she was a 911 dispatcher when my twins were babies, and was the
person who dispatched an ambulance when we had to call 911 one time because
Victoria aspirated during one of her gagging/retching/vomiting sessions. It
was very handy to have somebody who actually knew how to get to our house be
the one doing the dispatching, but it also meant she wasn't *home*.)

The bottom line for me is this: I pray I never have to use a gun on a
person. However, because I can imagine a situation where it's "them or me"
or maybe "them or my children", I am simply prepared. I will not sacrifice
the safety of my children to some random violent housebreaker's rather
nebulous right to continue his life the way he sees fit. You can call this
paranoia. That's okay. It gives me peace of mind. Somehow, I doubt if you
met me on the street or in any other fashion, you'd peg me for a violent
nutcase. Even if I did occasionally give my kids a public swat on the
backside. Hm. Well, then again maybe you would.

And just for a smidgen of history which I have not heretofore mentioned, I
was raised in the countryside. Most of the neighbors had guns, I had a .22
rifle from the age of 12 on, and I used to tramp through the woods for hours
every summer with my trusty poodle. We never actually shot anything, but we
had loads of fun, and nobody ever got hurt. People carried guns on racks in
the back windows of their cars. People carried handguns under the seats of
their cars. Nobody raises an eyebrow. It's just the culture there. Now,
here on the other side of the mountains, you'd probably cause a public
disturbance if you exercised your legal right to carry a handgun openly on
your hip. It *is* legal. It's just that nobody does it.

What I originally reacted to was the hitting as part of upbringing. In my
head I connected it to guns and death penalty - it may not be so for other
people.

Oh, no. Around here, people are perfectly contented to hold six or eight
mutually-exclusive opinions (someone might be pro-choice, pro-death-penalty,
anti-guns, and anti-taxes, and justify them all - or vice versa, or any
combination of the above), and to believe any number of utterly impossible
things. Silly Amurrikans.

Baby crying. Got to go rescue her from the clutches of the crib.

--angela

"Chotii" wrote in message .. .
Since I have already confessed that we *do* spank, I can discuss what I have
observed in the girls as a result of it. And please don't think it doesn't
disturb me. Because it does, and it makes me determined to work harder on
finding other sorts of crime-appropriate punishments.

I have seen the girls spank their toys for 'misbehavior'. I have seen them
spank (in fact) like the spankings they see on the Little Rascals (which to
me appear nothing short of physical abuse and I'm a little more horrified
every time I see them, because *every* parent in the Little Rascals short
films spanks a child at least 20-30 times. I should count next time I
watch.) I have seen them spank over *imagined* wrongdoing.

Yesterday, Alexandra slapped Victoria in the face, because "Victoria wasn't
doing what she told her to do."

I don't defend spanking and think it should be avoided by all parents,
regardless of their kids' personality types, but I still want to note
for you that your spanking may not have led directly to your kids'
"violence." I do think that it's inborn. At 2, when my DS started
preschool, his first reaction to being bothered by other kids (e.g.,
fighting over a toy) was to throw things at them, HARD. It was a big
problem there. He had never been touched (discipline-wise, I mean) by
us or any adult, I am sure. Babies "playing together" feel free to hit
each other. I think that lashing out physically comes naturally to
most humans. It is one of the big things we have to learn not to let
ourselves do as we grow up. I think adults hitting kids might
reinforce that, but I don't think it creates it.

I can assure you, she didn't learn this from us. But she seemed to think it
was entirely justified.

I chased A up to the top of the stairs and made her sit there, isolated in
the stairwell, alone for about 5 minutes. She tried to get out before then,
calling down "Mommy, I've learned my lesson about slapping people in the
face," but I wasn't buying it. The stairwell thing seems to work fairly
well. No toys there. No sisters there. Can't see anybody else.

Yes, ladies, I do see how violence begets violence. I just don't
necessarily know what else to do sometimes.

--angela