OT religion and smacking

Tine Andersen wrote:


Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing people (by
death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the norm amongst
Americans.

Tine, in distress


Obviously, killing people isn't the norm in the U.S. or there wouldn't
be many of us left.

Other than that - cultures differ. I find it peculiar that anyone would
have a general prejudice against having a gun in the house, but hey - if
you don't want one, don't get one.

Clisby

"Clisby" skrev i en meddelelse
...


Tine Andersen wrote:


Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing people
(by
death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the norm amongst
Americans.

Tine, in distress


Obviously, killing people isn't the norm in the U.S. or there wouldn't
be many of us left.

Other than that - cultures differ. I find it peculiar that anyone would
have a general prejudice against having a gun in the house, but hey - if
you don't want one, don't get one.

I have prejudice against the thought of anyone having a gun in their house -
mostly actually if it's not me, but my nabour who has it. Only criminals,
soldiers and members of a shooting club have this. And the members of the
shooting clubs can have guns, but not ammunition at home.

But you are right - it's a culture thing. I just ran out of clear minded,
objective, scientific tolerance (you see, Dawn, I'm not always calm and
controlled).


Tine, Denmark

"Nevermind" wrote in message
om...
"Chotii" wrote
I bought a pack because I'm using them to help Victoria learn to
put food
items of some size into her mouth, and eat them. But of course the
other
kids want them too. After removeing the bag from their bedroom
where they
had sneaked it, with display of much displeasure on my part, I
brought it
down and put it in front of me at my desk. Emmaline came and very
very
slowly crept her hand toward it, watching my face the whole time.
I said
"No, we're not having any more." The hand kept creeping.

Now, what would YOU do?

Threaten them with a punishment for direct disobedience, e.g., no
junk
food at all for the next X amount of time. And follow through, time
after time. Eventually, most kids will respond to this kind of
discipline.


Most isnt all. And some of us do happen to have the kids who are
in the minority/

"Nikki" wrote in message
...
Nina wrote:

Rule #1 for me- Never hit in anger. If I spank, it isn't based on
how
angry I am at the offense
or how upset and tired I am. Its done after I've had time to think
and
have decided that maybe
a few swats will help. Hitting in anger usually isn't discipline,
but
merely an act of frustration.

So your child does bad behavior x. You take a few minutes to
process the
above (maybe 5 or 10?) and then go back and swat him after the fact?

I suppose the issue is one of how angry you are. I may not need to
process the
info, if I am not angry, the child has been given ample opportunity to
comply but
still refuses then I can generally go and calmly give a whack across
the butt.
If I am too angry to swat in a civilized manner, Im also probably too
angry to
speak or explain anything calmly, so I might take a break.



I don't believe in spanking. I have spanked and it was completely
out of
frustration.
IMO hitting a child out of frustration isn't discipline, its
"fighting". ie "I'm mad at you, so
I'm going to hit you". Spanking is a carefully measured punishment not
just striking out in
anger.
Just as spanking doesn't work for some kids, time-outs, removing of
privileges etc doesn't work
for some kids. Trial and error.

"Tine Andersen" wrote .

This whole discussion is extremely painful to me. After spending a
lot of
time on this newsgroup, I have finally arrived to the conclusion
that
Americans are not as primitive and savage as we think, but this
conversation
bombs me back into prejudice again. It keeps going in my head:: what
can you
expect from citicens of a country that still considers guns in
private homes
normal and approves of death penalty. We considered this in-human 60
years
ago (or more). Hitting in schools was forbidden 40 years ago.
Hitting
children at all by anyone was forbidden 10 years ago (should have
been
earlier) in the acknowledgement of hitting being humiliating and
teaching
some not so wanted behavior.

I have never felt it necessary to hit. I have children who rage at
me, but
they recognize my superiority never the less. I do shout once in a
while,
but they know it's over in an instant. Where does hitting of any
kind fit
with AP'ing?

Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing
people (by
death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the norm
amongst
Americans.


It dont know that it is or isnt the norm. There is a lot of
child/spousal abuse here.
It is a cultural thing, the amount I spank is very low. And in the
area where I grew up,
I probably would be thought negligent for NOT using strong effective
discipline.

As far as worrying about us being primitive. Its simply a matter of
deciding whether you
can respect practices that you may happen to disagree with. I don't
really think its cool
to elongate your neck with stacks of bracelets, to disfigure your lips
with plates, to distend
the earlobes with pegs, to cut holes in the skin and rub in ashes and
dirt, to tattoo etc. Or
the many coming of age ceremonies that involve pain or duress.
But in many cultures that is the norm, and is not just accepted, but
required. Some may think these
things are cruel and evil and primitive beyond belief. But to me,
thats a part of those cultures and I
dont think its entirely fair to judge them based on my standards.

For example,based on what you say about Denmark, a great many people I
know would think it
insane that the norm is for kids to be raised in daycares. They would
think a society where parents
couldnt use any corporal punishment was bordering on laxity and
sliding down the slope toward
anarchy.

Remember how large and hterogenous the US is. There is no one set of
rules or standards that fits all of us.

..

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
news
"Clisby" skrev i en meddelelse
...


Tine Andersen wrote:


Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing
people
(by
death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the norm
amongst
Americans.

Tine, in distress


Obviously, killing people isn't the norm in the U.S. or there
wouldn't
be many of us left.

Other than that - cultures differ. I find it peculiar that anyone
would
have a general prejudice against having a gun in the house, but
hey - if
you don't want one, don't get one.

I have prejudice against the thought of anyone having a gun in their
house -
mostly actually if it's not me, but my nabour who has it. Only
criminals,
soldiers and members of a shooting club have this. And the members
of the
shooting clubs can have guns, but not ammunition at home.

But you are right - it's a culture thing. I just ran out of clear
minded,
objective, scientific tolerance (you see, Dawn, I'm not always calm
and
controlled).


lol
Yeah, you did. It happens. FWIW, I grew up in the South and while I am
more tolerant
of spanking etc because of growing up there, I do find the culture of
violence unsettling.
While I think an occasional swat or even spanking is ok, people in the
South (and other areas)
think a full blown "ass whipping" is needed on occasion. People tell
jokes about being beaten by
extension cords and toy car racetracks.They get beaten by switches,
which they have to cut off the tree
themselves. People beat teenagers. I don't agree with that, and DO
think its barbaric.
We all have our own comfort level and it is VERY hard to be totally
neutral.
Hell, its impossible.

Tine Andersen wrote:

Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing people (by
death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the norm amongst
Americans.

It's hard to say what is the norm. We're talking about a population
fifty-five times that of Denmark, if that helps with perspective, and
much more diverse.

A Gallup poll showed that 64% of Americans responding support the
death penalty. Thirty-nine percent of American households have guns in
them. I know that's a bazillion times higher than you have in Denmark,
but maybe it's a little lower than the impression you get from movies
and Usenet...

--
Sara, accompanied by the baby barnacle

Clisby wrote in message ...
Tine Andersen wrote:


Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing people (by
death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the norm amongst
Americans.

Tine, in distress


Obviously, killing people isn't the norm in the U.S. or there wouldn't
be many of us left.

Other than that - cultures differ. I find it peculiar that anyone would
have a general prejudice against having a gun in the house, but hey - if
you don't want one, don't get one.

Clisby

Yes, cultures do differ, including within the Unites States. (Wouldn't
want Tine or other non-U.S.'ers to forget that. It's a BIG and diverse
country, and plenty of us are anti-death-penalty and pro-gun-control.)

If someone has a gun in their house, your kid can get shot with it
there, or that person can take it out of the house, or unwittingly
allow some other dope to do so, thus possibly endangering the rest of
us. Your friend can get shot by her jealous ex-boyfriend, etc. Guns do
kill people, all too easily.

Nevermind wrote:
Clisby wrote in message ...

Tine Andersen wrote:


Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing people (by
death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the norm amongst
Americans.

Tine, in distress



Obviously, killing people isn't the norm in the U.S. or there wouldn't
be many of us left.

Other than that - cultures differ. I find it peculiar that anyone would
have a general prejudice against having a gun in the house, but hey - if
you don't want one, don't get one.

Clisby


Yes, cultures do differ, including within the Unites States. (Wouldn't
want Tine or other non-U.S.'ers to forget that. It's a BIG and diverse
country, and plenty of us are anti-death-penalty and pro-gun-control.)


Yes, that is absolutely true. For example, Denmark, where Tine lives,
has a considerably smaller population than the state of Georgia in the
U.S., which is my home. I wouldn't assume that the "norm" (for
anything) is the same in Atlanta, where I live, as in all of Georgia. I
sure wouldn't assume it was even close to the norm for the whole U.S.,
or for any other particular area.


If someone has a gun in their house, your kid can get shot with it
there, or that person can take it out of the house, or unwittingly
allow some other dope to do so, thus possibly endangering the rest of
us. Your friend can get shot by her jealous ex-boyfriend, etc. Guns do
kill people, all too easily.

I don't have to wonder about *someone* having a gun in his/her home; we
have a gun in our home. Yes, what you're saying is theoretically
possible. It is not anything I would lose sleep over.

Clisby

"Clisby" wrote in message
...

Nevermind wrote:

If someone has a gun in their house, your kid can get shot with it
there, or that person can take it out of the house, or unwittingly
allow some other dope to do so, thus possibly endangering the rest of
us. Your friend can get shot by her jealous ex-boyfriend, etc. Guns do
kill people, all too easily.

I don't have to wonder about *someone* having a gun in his/her home; we
have a gun in our home. Yes, what you're saying is theoretically
possible. It is not anything I would lose sleep over.

We have a gun. It is kept locked away in a gun safe.

When we chose to do this, we took on this responsibility: to make our
children safe around guns. It isn't enough to make the guns safe from the
children. To this end, we have utilized the NRA's 'Eddie Eagle' safety
video, which teaches the child

If you see a gun: Stop, Don't touch, Leave the Area, Tell an Adult.

It's not enough to tell a child, "Guns are bad, don't touch". You also have
to tell them what TO do. Research shows that kids left alone with a toy or
real (unloaded) gun will pick it up and play with it, even if told not to
beforehand. So, on a regular but random basis, I take a black toy handgun
(looks real, predates the multicolored toys with orange-tipped muzzles), or
a toy rifle (not quite real sized, also realistic) and I leave it lying
around randomly in the house in plain sight. Sometimes, I hide it somewhere
obvious. Kids will always find things like that. And then I wait.*

Eventually, the kids will find it. Maybe sooner, maybe later. And every
time, without fail, this is what happens:

Child comes screaming to mommy: "Mommy, mommy, I saw a gun!" Then child
grabs me by the hand, usually with a steel grip, and hauls me bodily to the
location of the toy. "Mommy, you put it away safe." Then child observes
while I do so. Child receives much praise. Child looks triumphant.

I know beyond doubt that if my kids were at a playground, and found a weapon
ditched in the bushes, they would be safe. I know if they were at a friend's
house and (for who knows what reason) found a gun in a drawer somewhere,
they would be safe. I have made them gun-safe. I cannot imagine any
responsible adult doing any less, even if they choose not to keep a weapon
in their house. Because the world out there is big, and not everybody keeps
their weapons in safes (as the occasional accidental shooting will show).

When our children are old enough, we will purchase a .22 rifle and take them
to the shooting range. There, they will learn gun safety: how to handle a
gun, when and where it is safe to shoot. They will put on earplugs and
sound-blocking earmuffs, and wear goggles, and they will shoot holes in
pieces of boring old paper. With luck, they will be bored rapidly and lose
interest. However, they will know they may go any time they wish. When
raised with this attitude, a gun is not an inaccessible mystery or forbidden
game. It's a hassle, and not even that much fun. (As a side note, we do not
keep toy guns, nor permit the girls to play with them if they see them
somewhere. But they're not interested in toy guns anyway.)

Now, you may well argue that we don't NEED a gun. I suppose not.
Technically, we don't NEED locks on all our doors, either, but we choose to
have them. We do not endanger anyone with our choice even if their
non-gun-safed children come into our house (that's why we spent the big
bucks on a safe), and while I understand the aversion, I reserve the right
to be a primitive wild-western American. I do *not* defend those Americans
who legally possess firearms and do not take these safety precautions.

--angela

* My brother has done this same thing with his 3 daughters. One day, my
brother and his children were at my parents' house. Suddenly, all 3 girls
came tearing up from the basement, screaming "We saw a gun! We saw a gun!"
My parents and my brother looked at each other, completely baffled. My
parents keep their firearms locked up in a safe. But the girls insisted. So
down the stairs they trooped. And there, under a coffee table, was a
rusted-out display piece of a .22 rifle, which couldn't even fire. My
parents hadn't realised, hadn't remembered it was there, and anyway, the
thing was no more dangerous than any other heavy metal-and-wood club. So the
piece was put away in the safe, and my nieces received much praise. Which
only goes to illustrate that kids will find things, and that adults can make
mistakes. But there was no mistake in their safety education. The girls did
just right..