OT religion and smacking

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...
"Chotii" skrev i en meddelelse
...

"Clisby" wrote in message
...

We have a gun. It is kept locked away in a gun safe.

What about your nabour who doesn't? And who doesn't act responsible
with
regards to his kids?

What about the neighbors who have dogs that sometimes jump the fence
and
chase and maul people? Or the neighbors who drink and smoke and burn
their
house and the neighborhood down? Or the neighbor with the idiot
teenager who speeds
while driving down the street? The neighbors with the Ginsu knive
collection
Gun ownership is allowed, so like other things that are legal
and potentially dangerous, we simply have to hope for thebest.

"Nikki" skrev i en meddelelse
...
I absolutely do not fee it is necessary to hit or spank. I have the urge
to
spank though :-( I wonder why that is.

I sometime - in frustration and powerlessness - have felt like doing it, but
as I would never hit another adult, being in deep s**t if I did, the law
also helps me not to hit my kids. It's simply illegal as all other kinds of
violence is.

And my kids know it's illegal - I would be in trouble with them if I did.
:-D

Please - someone - convince me, that hitting, shooting, killing
people (by death penalty or by having guns in the house) is not the
norm amongst Americans.

Well of course not!

THANKS! You are the first to respond plainly like that.

By the way....I don't think there is anywhere that an American would be
arrested for 1-2 open handed slaps to the butt. Almost anything else
could/would be considered abusive.

Probably not even in Denmark. But technically it is illegal and has been for
10 years.

Tine, Denmark

One is clearly done out of anger and maybe as retaliation, one is a
carefully determined punishment.
EVEN if you dont agree with it being done after a person is tried and
judgedm its not difficult
to see it is administered differently.

I think I would prefer the anger. Here killing someone in a rage is looked
upon milder than if it had been planned.

Tine, Denmark

Tine Andersen wrote:

One is clearly done out of anger and maybe as retaliation, one is a
carefully determined punishment.
EVEN if you dont agree with it being done after a person is tried and
judgedm its not difficult
to see it is administered differently.

I think I would prefer the anger. Here killing someone in a rage is looked
upon milder than if it had been planned.

Tine, Denmark



I have to agree. It seems to me, it would be much worse for the child
if s/he knew that the parent was hitting/spanking in a cold and
calculated manner. Hitting in anger isn't good, but it's understandable
as a human failing.

Then again, I'm against the death penalty, so I wasn't thrilled with the
lynching/jury and hanging analogy.

Jeanne

Chotii wrote:


"Clisby" wrote in message
...

Nevermind wrote:

If someone has a gun in their house, your kid can get shot with it
there, or that person can take it out of the house, or unwittingly
allow some other dope to do so, thus possibly endangering the rest of
us. Your friend can get shot by her jealous ex-boyfriend, etc. Guns do
kill people, all too easily.

I don't have to wonder about *someone* having a gun in his/her home; we
have a gun in our home. Yes, what you're saying is theoretically
possible. It is not anything I would lose sleep over.

We have a gun. It is kept locked away in a gun safe.

When we chose to do this, we took on this responsibility: to make our
children safe around guns. It isn't enough to make the guns safe from the
children. To this end, we have utilized the NRA's 'Eddie Eagle' safety
video, which teaches the child

If you see a gun: Stop, Don't touch, Leave the Area, Tell an Adult.
[snip]

Bah.

My best childhood friend lived with a gun in her house. Locked. Given
safety lessons. Then, at 18, because she wasn't doing well at college,
she unlocked the case because she knew where the key was and shot
herself.

Jeanne

"Bruce and Jeanne" wrote in message
...
Tine Andersen wrote:

One is clearly done out of anger and maybe as retaliation, one
is a
carefully determined punishment.
EVEN if you dont agree with it being done after a person is
tried and
judgedm its not difficult
to see it is administered differently.

I think I would prefer the anger. Here killing someone in a rage
is looked
upon milder than if it had been planned.

Tine, Denmark



I have to agree. It seems to me, it would be much worse for the
child
if s/he knew that the parent was hitting/spanking in a cold and
calculated manner. Hitting in anger isn't good, but it's
understandable
as a human failing.

The issue is that you would prefer a child to hink you hit in anger
because u
had lost your temper, than to believe that you hit them deliberately
because
you intended to inflict pain. If you believe that there is never a
good reason to
inflict pain, then that is understandable. If you believe that there
are instances
when physical pain can be a useful tool, then you wouldnt have a
problem with
the child knowing the spanking was calculated.
We all inflict some emotional pain, there is almost no way to raise a
child using all
postive reinforcment but never any negative consequences for unwanted
behaviors.

In Tanzania, people are very closeknit. Being sent to jail is a death
sentence because
most of the people wither away from being excluded from society.
There, a time out, or
sending a child to his room for hours would be seen as a punishment
FAR more cruel
and hard on the soul than blow to the buttocks. One is a mere whack
on the flesh
the other is devastating to the pysche. In societies where shunning is
a punishment,
the silent treatment would be considered cruel. People die from this.
They would prefer
to be spanked and allowed to participate in the family/society, than
given a time out and excluded.

In the US and the South in particular, non-white families discipline
harshly.
It seems cruel, but because their children are going to be held to a
higher standard
under more suspicion and treated with less tolerance, it is important
for many families
that their children be able to withstand cruel treatment. They have to
become somewhat calloused
in order to survive what they will have to deal with in society. A
black teenaged male who
becomes indignant or agitated or upset when called an ugly name or
treated harshly, is more
likely to be accused of resisting arrest and maybe killed at the hands
of the cops.
It is believed that a child who is "coddled" is more likely to break
when the time comes.
So though it may not be correct or may seem cruel, a LOT of families
do believe a child who
is wholly unaccustomed to harsh discipline, is not going to make it in
the world. And they do it out
of the utmost love and care. If you knew your child one day had to
walk on hot coals, you might want to
let him wear shoes his whole life, keep his feet soft and tender and
not have him go thru any pain.
But, if you want him to walk on thse coals successfully and make it to
the other side, from childhood
you would have him walk barefoot and as he got tougher, walk or harder
and rougher surfaces
until his feet became calloused enough to endure what lay ahead.
You may not believe it is neccessary, but there are people who do. And
whether they are correct
, their actions are not due to cruelty or insensitivity.
Think what people who were ignorant of vaccines would think of us
sticking babies with needles?




Then again, I'm against the death penalty, so I wasn't thrilled with
the
lynching/jury and hanging analogy.


Well, Im not for the death penalty either but the manner in which a
punihment is meted out
is

"Bruce and Jeanne" wrote in message
...
Chotii wrote:


"Clisby" wrote in message
...

Nevermind wrote:

If someone has a gun in their house, your kid can get shot
with it
there, or that person can take it out of the house, or
unwittingly
allow some other dope to do so, thus possibly endangering the
rest of
us. Your friend can get shot by her jealous ex-boyfriend, etc.
Guns do
kill people, all too easily.

I don't have to wonder about *someone* having a gun in his/her
home; we
have a gun in our home. Yes, what you're saying is
theoretically
possible. It is not anything I would lose sleep over.

We have a gun. It is kept locked away in a gun safe.

When we chose to do this, we took on this responsibility: to make
our
children safe around guns. It isn't enough to make the guns safe
from the
children. To this end, we have utilized the NRA's 'Eddie Eagle'
safety
video, which teaches the child

If you see a gun: Stop, Don't touch, Leave the Area, Tell an
Adult.
[snip]

Bah.

My best childhood friend lived with a gun in her house. Locked.
Given
safety lessons. Then, at 18, because she wasn't doing well at
college,
she unlocked the case because she knew where the key was and shot
herself.

Jeanne

knife
pills
alcohol
razor
rope
she could have used anything

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...
"Chotii" skrev i en meddelelse
...

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...
My first fear would be knowing the nabour had a gun and
wondering when
his
12-yo son would use it, just because he could or because he
thought it
was
'cool'. That's why I like drivers licenses given out after
having
received
education. I can drive as cautious I will - if the other guy
doesn't, I
die
anyhow.

This is true and sensible.

However, a license doesn't make a 16 year old wise. Lots of 16
year old
drivers kill themselves and/or their friends. As do older people.
A
license
is a good thing but it doesn't stop a certain number of deaths.

Did I mention I would require my children to take a gun-safety
course
(either from us, or the gun range) and have supervision at all
times when
handling firearms? How does this differ from the education
required to
handle a 3000-lb motor vehicle?

I'm not the least afraid of your children - I'm sure they'll be
sensible.

First: I forgot you could get a drivers license when you are 16 in
USA - you
have to be 18 in Denmark. And you can't drive without an authorized
teacher
before you have your drivers license. 18 is a bit better, but not
much. A
lot of accidents happen with youngsters involved in Denmark as well.

I guess that to me the difference between a gun and a car is that in
my
world/mind set you don't need a gun, but some people need a car.

what if there is an intruder with a knife or bat?
eliminating guns wouldnt eliminate violence here
and i am for gun control,btw

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...
"Chotii" skrev i en meddelelse
...

"Tine Andersen" wrote in message
k...
My first fear would be knowing the nabour had a gun and wondering when
his
12-yo son would use it, just because he could or because he thought it
was
'cool'. That's why I like drivers licenses given out after having
received
education. I can drive as cautious I will - if the other guy doesn't,
I
die
anyhow.

This is true and sensible.

However, a license doesn't make a 16 year old wise. Lots of 16 year old
drivers kill themselves and/or their friends. As do older people. A
license
is a good thing but it doesn't stop a certain number of deaths.

Did I mention I would require my children to take a gun-safety course
(either from us, or the gun range) and have supervision at all times
when
handling firearms? How does this differ from the education required to
handle a 3000-lb motor vehicle?

I'm not the least afraid of your children - I'm sure they'll be sensible.

First: I forgot you could get a drivers license when you are 16 in USA -
you
have to be 18 in Denmark. And you can't drive without an authorized
teacher
before you have your drivers license. 18 is a bit better, but not much. A
lot of accidents happen with youngsters involved in Denmark as well.

I guess that to me the difference between a gun and a car is that in my
world/mind set you don't need a gun, but some people need a car.

Ah. Well, this is a different argument entirely.

Some 12 year old children steal cars and drive them and crash. Some 12 year
olds pick up guns and shoot them. You may well argue that the gun is
unnecessary. Depending on where the family lives, you might well argue that
the *car* is unnecessary. But that is a different argument from 'guns are
dangerous, nobody should own a gun'.

For some people, the possession of a (legal) firearm provides a feeling of
safety. Perhaps they feel that, in the event of a break-in to their place of
residence or business, they cannot rely on the police to protect them in
time, or at all. In any event, in most cases, all the police can do is
*react* to a crime. Restraining orders - one of the few legal recourses
people have to aggressors in their lives - frequently fail, fatally, to
protect the people who need them the most. (And for some people, of course,
a firearm is a necessary item for various sports.)

Simply making guns illegal doesn't make crime go away. And not just in
America - see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...lk/3009769.stm - this
fellow's house was burgled so many times that he used an (illegal) gun and
shot somebody to death. He is now in prison, because "The parole board...has
continually refused him early release - saying he has shown no remorse and
would continue to pose a danger to any other burglars."

It is not illegal in the USA (yet, anyway) to defend one's self inside one's
own home or business, *provided* there is evidence of a threat to life from
the intruder.

How do you place a value on peace of mind? Is that unnecessary? And with
what do you propose to replace this method of self- and home-defense for
people who *want* it, if it were taken away?

Of course, if people do *not* want a firearm, nobody's forcing them to. (And
those who do have one, have a very high responsibility to store/handle them
responsibly, and to train their children accordingly.) (Repeat ad nauseum.)

--angela

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:52:44 -0500, Bruce and Jeanne
wrote:
My best childhood friend lived with a gun in her house. Locked. Given
safety lessons. Then, at 18, because she wasn't doing well at college,
she unlocked the case because she knew where the key was and shot
herself.

That is really, really sad to hear (
But I feel the need to make the point that there are other objects to
commit suicide with...drugs, or a car, or a knife.
Marie