Drew's Solution to The Dave's concept

"Tiffany" wrote
Its all about the money. lol

Money is a VERY powerful motivator.

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:34:58 -0500, "Moon Shyne"
wrote:


"Sunny" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 04:35:13 -0500, "Moon Shyne"
wrote:

Why not tell your own kids what to do, and stay out of other people's kids'
lives?

Sometimes, bad parents put their child's emotional welfare at risk.
Like your children, for example. We tried to warn you, and now they
are screwed up beyond repair. Strangers on Usenet were more concerned
about your kids than you were.

You're in a minority - my children are just fine, thanks for your concern :-)

That's not what I heard.

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:06:24 -0500, "Moon Shyne"
wrote:

Do they get a paycheck while they're working their career? Do they get
unemployment benefits in the case of a layoff? Do they get holidays off with
pay? 2 weeks vacation per year, during which they do not have to do their
career work? Do they get to clock out at 5, and stop working?

Do unemployed dads get to pay child support when they're laid off and
out of work? No! They get hauled into court by their nasty exes.

"Sunny" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 19:34:58 -0500, "Moon Shyne"
wrote:


"Sunny" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 04:35:13 -0500, "Moon Shyne"
wrote:

Why not tell your own kids what to do, and stay out of other people's
kids'
lives?

Sometimes, bad parents put their child's emotional welfare at risk.
Like your children, for example. We tried to warn you, and now they
are screwed up beyond repair. Strangers on Usenet were more concerned
about your kids than you were.

You're in a minority - my children are just fine, thanks for your concern
:-)

That's not what I heard.

Fortunately, reality trumps the voices in your head any day of the week

(Watch, Mary will *have* to reply yet again, because she just can't help
herself)

What does your lawyer say?

"Melissa hernandez" wrote in message
...
hi. i'm wonderind if i could get some advice from you. i left my husband
with our 3yr. old son to another state because i was scared of him and
he filed for divorce and won custody of the son. I obtained a good
lawyer for 5000.00 and am awaiting court in the state i left to see if i
can get my rights back. This is an abusive man with aggravated assault
charges pending against him as we speak and he only wanted my son for
revenged against me for leaving him. I hope you can help me out some
way. I'm scared as hell about going to court which is next week and am
just wondering what you think my chances are.

"Indyguy1" wrote in message
...
Phil#3 wrote:

Snip to

So you know of no advantages for men to marry?

I guess the stats that show married men live longer and are happier isn't
an
advantage in your eyes?

Not at all. I'd rather die happy than live unhappy.


Me neither, but I know of
MANY disadvantage

Some women feel the same way.

I know, I am in a relationship with one who feels much the same way I do
about it and we're happy living apart, sharing what we want, when we want.
She has her life into which I don't intrude and try to bend her desires and
she returns the favor. We are both happy. Neither of us see the need to fix
what ain't broken.
Phil #3


Mrs Indyguy

Phil #3 wrote in message
...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

Phil #3 wrote in message
...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

Phil #3 wrote in message
...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

The Dave© wrote in message
s.com...
"frazil" wrote
For better or worse, this is already happening. A
significant number of divorced men are refusing to
get married, especially those with children. And a
noteworthy number of never married are refusing
also. I'm one of them. I have no desire to have
more children as a result of my divorce, and if I
did, I couldn't afford more children anyway. Since
I can't afford any more children, what would be the
point of getting married? And as a result I only date
women who already have children and don't want
anymore, didn't want children in the first place, or
who can have children. As to the later, if adoption
comes up, I run for the hills. For me at least, marriage
is a losing proposition. And my single male friends,
having witnessed what I went through, are not very
eager to tie the knot anymore. It is too bad, because
I liked being married, but the consequences are just
too great, and the benefits too little. Men are slowly
learning that lesson. It is unfortunate.

I understand what you're saying. I have seriously considered
advising
my
two boys to never get married and make sure they don't have
"accidents".
It's a very sad commentary on society when people have to
think
that
way.

I would be open to helping raise someone else's kids, but I
would
NEVER
adopt.

As far as no more kids, I took care of that about three years
ago.
We
have
the technology.



I can understand teaching them about protected sex or not having
sex,
period, but not to marry?

I don't think that is a good thing to teach. Sorry but I had to
express
that.

T

Perhaps I'd reconsider if you can show one advantage for men who
marry.
(Other than the one about statistics show married men live longer
than
single men because I'm not so sure they live longer, it only
*seems*
longer
:-) )
Phil #3




I suppose, unlike you all, I do know some happy married people. AND
they
have been married for some time. I also know divorced folks that
didn't
end
up on the Jerry Springer show. They divorced, treat each other with
dignity
and the kids have had no ill affects as they continued to be
parented
by
both parents.
When you are surrounded by alot of the negative relationships, its
easy
to
think the way you men are thinking. I guess it takes a certain type
of
individual to move past the bad and still believe in good.
I for one, was in an abusive relationship for a short time. Short,
only
because I had enough sense to get out. Should I then assume all men
are
abusive?

T

So you know of no advantages for men to marry? Me neither, but I know
of
MANY disadvantages.
Phil #3




Advantages being...... if being practical, insurance, financial, blah
blah.
Mostly the advantage is..... and you can't disagree with this...... if
you
are alone, you are LONELY, are you not?

Oh, but you are entirely wrong. I have been "alone" for over a decade and
I
wouldn't change it for the world.
My best day married could not even compare with my worst day single.
I rarely ever get a feeling of being "alone"; I got over that when I
realized that I could not depend on my parents to pull me out of any type
of
jam, financial or otherwise. I had to stand on *my* two feet and make
decisions for my own life. I've made a lot of mistakes along the way and
the
main one was believing I 'needed' someone to share my life with.

Being in a happy relationship is
good for the soul, for your health, ect.

I disagree. I am happier alone than I every was married. I am calmer, more
rational and much more at ease.
I have never been 'sick', other than catching the flu or a cold every few
years. I did have 3 minor operations, one was entirely voluntary
(vasectomy).

Marriage is a sign of commitment.

No, marriage is more akin to 'going steady' in middle school.
With marriage 'contracts' being unworthy of the paper and ink it takes to
write a license, I'd certainly not call it "commitment".
With the current numbers of divorces, I'd say marriage is not only *not* a
sign of commitment, calling something that has a near 50% chance of ending
within 10 years "a commitment" is temporary insanity, at best.

If you see no advantage, then don't marry but by forcing your views on
your
children, in the end they may end up missing out on a lifetime of
happiness
with someone who truelly loves them. Yes, love.... remember that?

I am no more "forcing" my views on my children any more than society is by
portraying marriage as more normal or better than single.
I simply want them to realize that marriage is not what it is portrayed to
be. There is no "marriage contract", no "until death do us part", no
"honor", "love" or anything else portrayed by marriage. It is simply a
legal
undertaking, easily and quickly ended at the behest of either one even if
there is no valid reason to end it. Both must choose to marry but it only
takes one to divorce. By avoiding giving another the choice to control
their
life, the life they make is entirely their own; happy or otherwise.
You are assuming that marriage equals happiness. It doesn't. You seem to
assume that marriage lasts a lifetime. They rarely do.
Using today's standards, I would have to say "love" is a temporary
condition
relieved by lack of money, tedium of contact and differing goals and
viewpoints. Of course, my opinion of "love" is one where each consider the
other's hapiness to be more important than their own. I don't see that
happening much, if at all.


I am not going to argue about marriage. I can understand why most here
think
the way they do.

No argument. I asked for an advantage but apparently there are none which
was my original statement.
I have everything I want (that I can afford) and do not have to fear being
forced into giving it away just because someone else changed their mind.


You didn't answer my question btw. Should I also assume all men are
abusive?

It was rhetorical and therefore deserved no answer but if you insist, my
answer if "of course not because, by far, most men aren't".
Phil #3





But I am sure (if I was so inclined) I could find statistics that would say
a large percentage of men are abusive. lol

I did tell you advantages to marriage. You just don't see it as advantages.
Can you honestly tell me you are not lonely at times? Or do you have a
female companion you lay down in the sack with time and again?

And since when is marriage portrayed as normal? For gods sake, when was the
last time you watched tv? Marriage is portrayed as a joke! Could be why the
younger folks don't see marriage as the life long commitment it should be.

T

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...


But I am sure (if I was so inclined) I could find statistics that would
say
a large percentage of men are abusive. lol

Absolutely. Except the statistics you will find show men are equality
abusive to women as women are abusive to men. And the men who are abuusive
are not the fathers of the women's children. The abusers are boyfriends and
stepfathers who women allow to enter into their lives and have access to
them and their children.


I did tell you advantages to marriage. You just don't see it as
advantages.

So repeat them again for all of us men to understand. And try not to coach
them in terms of how women benefit from marriage and be real clear on how
men benefit from marriage.

Can you honestly tell me you are not lonely at times? Or do you have a
female companion you lay down in the sack with time and again?

Typical woman sexist logic. Men need to have sex with women to avoid
feeling lonely. What a hoot! Women have a grossly inflated image of their
sexuality and it's impact on men. What about all the women who are
desperate to be with a man because there are fewer men than women
demographically as we age? Perhaps when you get a little older you'll be
giving it away too, so you won't feel lonely.


And since when is marriage portrayed as normal? For gods sake, when was
the
last time you watched tv? Marriage is portrayed as a joke! Could be why
the
younger folks don't see marriage as the life long commitment it should be.

Now that is perceptive!

Tiffany scribbled:

Max Burke wrote in message
Does Dad Do Housework? Barriers to His Participation
By Steve Duncan
MSU Extension Service

07/27/01 BOZEMAN - No one at my home likes to do housework. We
follow the Erma Bombeck adage: Housework, if done properly, can kill
you. We have framed this statement and placed it in our family
room--the scene
of the greatest household destruction.

Studies confirm what wives and mothers have always known--they get
saddled with most of the housework. Even when both husbands and wives
work outside the home, domestic duties are not divided equally.
Research going back three decades shows small increases in men's
participation in domestic activity, but most of the increases have
been in childcare.

Findings from a new study likewise won't surprise most wives and
mothers--doing most of the housework is depressing. Based on
responses
of 581 men and 608 women surveyed in 1990 and 1994, doing most of the
housework leads to anxiety, discouragement, depression and worry.

The study's author, Chloe Bird, a professor of community health and
sociology at Brown University, hastens to add that her study is "not
about household labour making people suicidal." However, a lack of
shared
responsibility increases a woman's feelings of inequity, and inequity
and the psychological distress it causes can harm intimate
relationships.

Are men the problem here? A number of studies show that men really
want to increase their involvement in caring for the home and the
kids. While the finger of blame is often pointed at men (and
sometimes justifiably so) there is also another side of the story.

New research of 622 dual-earner mothers suggests that women may
actually be inhibiting the more equitable distribution of housework
they seek. Sarah Allen and Alan Hawkins of Brigham Young University
and authors of the study call this process "maternal gatekeeping."

Maternal gatekeeping is a collection of beliefs and behaviours that
inhibit a collaborative effort between men and women on household
tasks and child care. It shows itself in families in at least three
ways.

First, a mother may set rigid housekeeping standards. This standard
setting may actually reflect her reluctance to relinquish
responsibility for household chores. She may respond to her
husband's involvement in unsupportive ways, such as by "criticizing,
redoing or demeaning her husband's efforts because he did not do it
her way," despite the fact that he did the job just fine.

Second, a mother may largely base her self-perception and identity on
how she thinks others view her housekeeping and mothering. She may
view equal partnership with her husband in housekeeping and
childcare as a threat to her self-respect and self-identity as a
woman. Mothers with these beliefs who then share the housekeeping
role equally with their husbands may experience guilt, regret and
ambivalence, and may feel they are neglecting their motherly role.

Third, a mother may have beliefs about what moms and dads should and
should not do in the home. Mothers who believe that housekeeping is
primarily "women's work" may be more hesitant to share that role.
They may do more monitoring and managing of their husband's efforts,
to their husband's consternation.

The study found that the mothers classified as "gatekeepers"--those
who scored high on a material gatekeeping measure-- did 5 more hours
of family work per week and had a less equal division of labour than
mothers
classified as "collaborators"---those who scored lowest on the
measure. In this study, 21 percent of the mothers were gatekeepers,
similar to what others have found.

If you are a wife and mother and have been frustrated by what seems
to
be your husband's (or children's) reluctance to share responsibility
for household tasks, you might benefit from considering how well the
following items describe you. These items were adapted from the Allen
and Hawkins study.

I frequently redo some household tasks my husband hasn't done
well.

It's too hard to teach family members the skills necessary to do
the jobs right, so I'd rather do them myself.

My husband doesn't really know how to do a lot of the household
chores...so it's just easier if I do them.

I have higher standards than my husband for how well cared for the
house should be.

I like being in charge when it comes to domestic responsibilities.

If visitors dropped by unexpectedly and my house was a mess, I
would be embarrassed.

When my children look well groomed in public, I feel extra proud
of them.

I believe that people make judgments about how good a wife/mother
I am based on how well cared for my house and kids are.

I care about what my neighbours, extended family and friends think
about the way I perform my household tasks.

I believe that most women enjoy caring for their homes, and men
just don't like that stuff.

I believe that for a lot of reasons, it's harder for men than for
women to do housework and child care

If these items sound very much like you, you may indeed be a
gatekeeper. If you desire to change or reduce your gatekeeping
tendencies, one strategy would be to meet with your husband (and
children, where appropriate), make a detailed list of all the
household chores and
decide on your own arrangement for sharing housework. Then let go.
Otherwise, you may need to simply get used to doing most of the work.
http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/home/42199fam.html


So I wonder about how men feel about women who do 'their' chores.....
yard work for example.

Mostly we're glad someone else is doing it...... ;-)

I would bet my last penny that men are NOT
satisfied with the way their wives do those types of chores.

Have you *ever asked *a man, any man* if they would have that
'dissatisfied' reaction, or are you backing this 'bet' because it is the
way you react when the men in your life do your work and you're
dissatisfied with their work?

It is
just human nature, in a sense.

Female human nature yes.....

But to use housework as an excuse for
anxiety, depression.... that is a crock of ****.

And your basis for holding that POV is? Like do you have any
independently verifiable cites and references that led you to hold this
belief?
Or are you saying as you think it's a 'crock of ****' it must be a
'crock of ****'.....

Interesting article
though, as I see that type of behavior with my Mom who always
complains that her husband doesn't help around the house but then he
does and she bitches its not good enough.

ROTFLOL.....
You say the behaviour of women and housework is a 'crock of ****' then
in your next paragraph say your very own mother behaves exactly as
described in the article......

BTW to get the debate 'back on topic' do you believe that when an SAH
willingly and with agreement of their partner gives up their career,
that this is a greater sacrifice than the sacrifice of the wage earner
who gives up 'quality time' with their children while the children are
growing up, just so they can provide for the children's AND SAH's needs?
Do you think that they should be compensated for that loss by the SAH
once the divorce happens, or should they have no 'recourse' because that
is the choice they made?

# Expecting men to be treated fairly is not a bad lesson to teach your
children. The problem today is that too many women want men to be
responsible so the woman don't have to be.


--

Replace the obvious with paradise to email me.
See Found Images at:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke

Ya lost me on that one, Mel.........which coin is landing on heads 2,500,000
times?

Those who argue that the SAH would missed out on a career track equal to that
traversed by the working spouse and never something much less are saying that
odds are ALWAYS that the woman would have done very well if the marriage had
not occurred.

She has an equal chance of having flowered or floundered - but we will never
know whether she'd have made her own fortune or ended up on a street corner.
And yet many insist that we must treat her as if it was only the marriage that
kept her from flowering. They insist on ignoring the odds that she would have
failed if left to her own devices.

Mel Gamble

"Mel Gamble" wrote in message
...

"Mel Gamble" wrote in message
...
Exactly, Kenneth.

I think what this all boils down to is that it is very important that
people not be granted victim status, and compensated for this status,
until there is an investigation of whether they actually ARE victims.

The central problem for men in what goes on in U.S. domestic
relations
law is that women usually are automatically awarded victim status.
Women are, after all, one of the officially designated victim groups
in
the U.S. These groups constitute a huge category of people, embracing
all kinds, from Aleutian islanders to one-legged lesbians,

Wow!! I was not aware that one-legged lesbians had an official
minority-status group of their own!! I learn something new every day!!

but certainly
EXCLUDING heterosexual men.

And that, unfortunately, is true.



So a stay at home wife can come along, seeking a divorce via no-fault
divorce laws, and claim that she should be compensated by the man that
she wants to push out of the family. In regard to the decision to
stay
home, there's no investigation of the woman's claim that her husband
made her do it.

That is why I only consider a long-term SAH situation to be one that,
perhaps, needs attention. And I don't believe, any more that you do,
that
hubby made her to it.


And there's no investigation, of course, into whether
the woman is justified in seeking to break up the family by expelling
her husband.

If a SAH wants to break up the family to go find herself--let her do it
at
her own expense. Unless there is something going on that would harm her
or
the children, or unless hubby is boffing his new secretary. But, then ,
we're back to "fault", aren't we? And we jsut don't do that these days!!


And when it comes to the spousal support that Gimmeguy argues for,
there's
no
investigation into whether she'd have been a corporate executive if
she'd
stayed in the workplace....or just an older, burned out hooker. But
she
always
has to pay as if she'd have been the executive.

Geesh, Mel!! Where do you come up with this stuff!!

Every coin has a flip-side, Teach. Science teaches us that it might land
on
heads twice in a row, maybe will three times in a row. When somebody
starts
trying to get us to believe that that coin would land on heads 2,500,000
times
out of 2,500,000 times.....it's time to take a closer look at that coin.

Mel Gamble