What has hapenned to this group?

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On 14 Jan 2006 06:34:33 -0800, "Ron"
wrote:

As I have said before, the 1 or two decades of biased "research"
you have available that may or may not support your theories pale in
comparison when placed next to the 10 to 20 Millennia of unbiased
historical fact.

I am not going by research, but on my own experience as both a
parent and teacher.

So your experience outtrumped the experience of hunmanity???

In preschool classes in particular, you can tell by behavior which
children were spanked and which were not. The children who are
spanked are much more likely to hit other kids when they are
frustrated or angry. Not that other children don't hit, but they get
the idea of solving problems using words much more quickly.

And how do know which children were spanked and which were not? Is this
data part of the school record?

Doan

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On 14 Jan 2006 06:34:33 -0800, "Ron"
wrote:

Another nice assumption, one that remains unproven is this forum. An
assumption that is disproven quite easily by the 20,000+ years of
evidence and historical fact available to us.

No, the years when spanking has been used don't prove anything about
its effectiveness. We are always working on improving methods in all
areas including parenting, you know.

But it does prove the "non-spanking" cultures didn't thrive.

Doan

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:32:47 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On 14 Jan 2006 06:34:33 -0800, "Ron"
wrote:

As I have said before, the 1 or two decades of biased "research"
you have available that may or may not support your theories pale in
comparison when placed next to the 10 to 20 Millennia of unbiased
historical fact.

I am not going by research, but on my own experience as both a
parent and teacher.

So your experience outtrumped the experience of hunmanity???

In preschool classes in particular, you can tell by behavior which
children were spanked and which were not. The children who are
spanked are much more likely to hit other kids when they are
frustrated or angry. Not that other children don't hit, but they get
the idea of solving problems using words much more quickly.

And how do know which children were spanked and which were not? Is this
data part of the school record?

We ask parents what discipline techniques they use and we observe how
they act around the children when they are at school as well. And, of
course, the children role play in the housekeeping corner. If you
don't think that the preschool teachers know a lot about what goes on
in your home, you are kidding yourself because 3 to 5 year olds are
the greatest mimics in the world and they often talk in their parents
voices.

Doan



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:32:47 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On 14 Jan 2006 06:34:33 -0800, "Ron"
wrote:

As I have said before, the 1 or two decades of biased "research"
you have available that may or may not support your theories pale in
comparison when placed next to the 10 to 20 Millennia of unbiased
historical fact.

I am not going by research, but on my own experience as both a
parent and teacher.

So your experience outtrumped the experience of hunmanity???

In preschool classes in particular, you can tell by behavior which
children were spanked and which were not. The children who are
spanked are much more likely to hit other kids when they are
frustrated or angry. Not that other children don't hit, but they get
the idea of solving problems using words much more quickly.

And how do know which children were spanked and which were not? Is this
data part of the school record?

We ask parents what discipline techniques they use and we observe how
they act around the children when they are at school as well. And, of
course, the children role play in the housekeeping corner. If you
don't think that the preschool teachers know a lot about what goes on
in your home, you are kidding yourself because 3 to 5 year olds are
the greatest mimics in the world and they often talk in their parents
voices.

Do you know how "unscientific" this method is? Do you keep records?
Do you allow for confounding factors? If you think that preschool
teachers know lot about what's going on in EVERY student house, YOU
ARE KIDDING yourself!

Doan

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:36:30 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On 14 Jan 2006 06:34:33 -0800, "Ron"
wrote:

Another nice assumption, one that remains unproven is this forum. An
assumption that is disproven quite easily by the 20,000+ years of
evidence and historical fact available to us.

No, the years when spanking has been used don't prove anything about
its effectiveness. We are always working on improving methods in all
areas including parenting, you know.

But it does prove the "non-spanking" cultures didn't thrive.

No, how does it prove that?

It doesn't prove anything about any cultures *thriving*. I don't
consider American culture to be *thriving* nor do I consider
Iraqi culture to be *thriving*. I don't know what your standard
is for that. My goal is individual self-discipline. Children who
don't learn that don't thrive. Kids who are spanked don't learn
this from spanking. If they learn it at all, it is from other things
in their environment.

Doan




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:36:30 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On 14 Jan 2006 06:34:33 -0800, "Ron"
wrote:

Another nice assumption, one that remains unproven is this forum. An
assumption that is disproven quite easily by the 20,000+ years of
evidence and historical fact available to us.

No, the years when spanking has been used don't prove anything about
its effectiveness. We are always working on improving methods in all
areas including parenting, you know.

But it does prove the "non-spanking" cultures didn't thrive.

No, how does it prove that?

Survival of the fittest. Do you know of any non-spanking culture
that thrive?

Doan

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:40:44 -0800, Doan wrote:

No, how does it prove that?

Survival of the fittest. Do you know of any non-spanking culture
that thrive?

Social Darwinism is passe, Doan


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Originally Posted by Ron

I am far from uneducated, and I support its use. Nor has it been
ineffective, not in more than 20,000+ years of use. History proves
that it is indeed the most effective behavior modification technique
known to over 20,000+ years of
historical data and precedent.

I have read 20,000+ years of corporal punishment more times than I can count Ronny. But yet you seem to be ignoring cultures who don't strike their children. Like Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Cyprus, Latvia, and Croatia. And yet their children are not unruly, undiciplined little brats. Nor have you addressed cultures who don't strike their children, never have because Children are viewed as precious and thought of as beautiful gifts to be guided into responsible adults.

toto wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:40:44 -0800, Doan wrote:

No, how does it prove that?

Survival of the fittest. Do you know of any non-spanking culture
that thrive?

Social Darwinism is passe, Doan

And "thrive" is such a subjective concept as well.

Personally I like how the Hutterites have thrived as a society, even
across a border between two nations. I understand they have never had a
homicide in all their years of existence.

Nor are they violent with each other. And somewhat egalitarian.

It may be that they have been known to spank a child, but it would be
the rarest of occurances. And certainly not a factor in their capacity
to "thrive."

It's the non-violent gentle nature of their parenting with a fine tuned
application of developmentally approriate teaching.

'Course they don't appear, to the outsider, to even be trying...they
are so laid back about child rearing.

They aren't the only society that has thrived without battering
children and calling it their equivalent of "spanking."

I suppose "thrive" could mean more consumption/production and
environmental degradation.

0:-)




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006, toto wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:40:44 -0800, Doan wrote:

No, how does it prove that?

Survival of the fittest. Do you know of any non-spanking culture
that thrive?

Social Darwinism is passe, Doan


That doesn't change the fact that non-spanking cultures just don't thrive!

Doan