my friend's controlling son

This is my first post...glad I found this group! My best friend and I spend
quite a bit of time together, and both have kids who are exactly the same
age. Mine is a girl, and hers is a boy (age 4). They have always been close,
which is nice, but now it is becoming a bit much. They go to the same
playschool (unintended, we didn't even know we had registered at the same
one!) and since we go to the same church, they are in sunday school
together.

Her son has trouble getting along with other kids his age because they
always end up fighting, even physically at times, with him being the
aggressor most often. Other parents have tried to tell her in one way or
another that her son may have some personality weakness, but she is very
much prone to resentment and anger to the person who says this. (the last
one who tried was her childhood friend, last summer, and they haven't spoken
since)

sorry for the length here, btw.....My daughter is the only one he loves
playing with. He loves coming over, and having her over there. She likes him
too, and likes to play with him, but he is getting increasingly controlling
of her and is even starting to become physically abusive, when he thinks no
one is watching (ie: twisting her arm if she won't come with him, pushing,
etc.) I think the reason he likes her so much is that she is very
submissive, and doesn't put up a fight. At playschool, the teachers have
told me that he won't allow her to play with other kids, but there's not too
much that they do about it. She complains that he won't let her play with
the one other friend she has, or sit by her at snack time, etc. I am also
very timid and have a very hard time standing up for myself, or my daughter,
especially with my friend, because I don't want to lose our relationship.
When we go over to their house and she comes up to me and wants to be held
(I know why) and "Annette" says, "Why don't you just go play with him? You
aren't a little baby" or something along those lines, I really don't know
what to say (even though it burns my up to hear her being belittled like
that, time and time again) other than "Oh, I think she's just tired"

PLEASE help, someone. This is becoming a real problem, and she is becoming
more and more timid, shy and submissive all the time. Any advice or comments
are welcome!

Newsgroups wrote:

PLEASE help, someone. This is becoming a real problem, and she is becoming
more and more timid, shy and submissive all the time. Any advice or comments
are welcome!

It sounds like this is something you can't just let slide.
This seems to be affecting your daughter, and you cannot allow your
fear to stand in the way of protecting her.
Personally, I think you have a number of things you can do:

1) Ask the preschool teachers to be more proactive. I don't believe
for a minute that there's nothing more they can do. They can keep
your daughter close at hand and/or they can keep the boy close at
hand. They can separate them. They can nudge one in one direction
and the other in another. Once they're aware of the situation,
they *absolutely* have an obligation to do something about it.
I'd insist on it. They don't have to keep the two from ever
coming into contact, but there's a lot they can do.

2) Will they be in kindergarten next year? If so, you might
have a conversation with the principal about making sure
they're not in the same class next year. Don't badmouth
the boy at all. Just explain that they've been together
a lot over the past few years and the dynamic hasn't been
great between them lately and you think it would be much
better for your daughter socially to develop some new
ties as she moves into primary school.

3) Structure your interactions with your friend such that the
kids are very well supervised. Have fewer playdates in the
house and more outings to events that involve more parent/
child interaction.

4) Schedule *other* playdates for your daughter! Be too busy
to spend a lot of time with this boy.

5) When you're with this boy and your daughter, don't be afraid
to say something to him. Ideally, help to give your daughter
a voice. If he tells her to do something and she doesn't
want to do it, be down at their level with them, look him in
the eye, and say very firmly, "She said she doesn't want to
do that right now. Would you like to do X or Y?" Model the
behavior your daughter will need, and be there so that she
doesn't have to fear physical reprisal.

6) If your friend starts getting ornery about it, explain that
your daughter has been having challenges asserting herself
and she needs your support at this time to learn how to
express herself firmly and in appropriate ways. If that's
not working for your friend, you'll be happy to let her
know when things seem to be going more smoothly and you
don't need to be so hands on with your daughter. You don't
have to say a word about her son or his behavior ;-) If
you have to, resort to an appeal to authority and tell your
friend that you've been concerned about your daughter's
passivity and this is how you were advised to deal with it
and you're going to give it the old college try.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Newsgroups wrote:

[...] ..My daughter is the only one he loves
playing with. He loves coming over, and having her over there. She likes him
too, and likes to play with him, but he is getting increasingly controlling
of her and is even starting to become physically abusive, when he thinks no
one is watching (ie: twisting her arm if she won't come with him, pushing,
etc.) I think the reason he likes her so much is that she is very
submissive, and doesn't put up a fight.
[...] I am also
very timid and have a very hard time standing up for myself, or my daughter,
especially with my friend, because I don't want to lose our relationship.

I'm someone who stands up easily for myself,
so I'm afraid I cannot be very sympathetic
about this... My first thought upon reading
your post is: Are you reading your own post?
Do you see that you are teaching your daughter
by example how to deal with bullies???

You HAVE to be your daughter's advocate. The
other boy is a child; you can also teach him.
Do you stop him when he twists your daughter's
arm? I cannot believe that you would stand by
and let that happen!

Whenever he does anything like that, you have
to say something like: "we don't hurt other
people", or "that's not nice", or something to
that effect. If your daughter sees you doing
nothing, she learns to do nothing.

You say you do not want to lose this friendship...
Let me tell you, if you do not do anything, sometime
sooner or later, you WILL lose this friendship.
What will it take? When her son beats up your
daughter in grade school?

Why don't you try telling your friend gently
what her son is doing? You don't have to accuse
him of anything, just mention that he seems to
be a bit bossy... Or, if he does do any arm-
twisting, reprimand him gently in a voice loud
enough for her to hear.

I am very worried for your daughter. But, like
I said, I don't understand people who are timid
and don't speak up for themselves. Mind you, I
don't bully, but I don't let myself or my loved
ones be bullied. I would NEVER let anyone bully
my child! My child's well-being comes before
my friendship with someone.

-- Anita --

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 01:38:53 GMT, "Newsgroups"
wrote:

My daughter is the only one he loves playing with. He loves
coming over, and having her over there. She likes him
too, and likes to play with him, but he is getting increasingly
controlling of her and is even starting to become physically
abusive, when he thinks no one is watching (ie: twisting her
arm if she won't come with him, pushing, etc.)

Intervene and send him home from the playdate as soon as
anything abusive is happenning. And, don't accept any
playdates at his house unless you are sure the other mother
will watch for this and intervene. You have an obligation to
stand up for your daughter's right not to be abused in any way.

Does your daughter want him to come over?

I think the reason he likes her so much is that she is very
submissive, and doesn't put up a fight. At playschool, the
teachers have told me that he won't allow her to play with
other kids, but there's not too much that they do about it.

The teachers can control this partly by assigning them to
play areas that are different. In our playschools only a certain
number of kids can be in each center and children choose
which one. They can make sure that he plays in different
centers from the one he goes to first - if he chooses first,
have her choose a different one. If she chooses first, limit
him to other centers than the one she choose. If they cannot
handle this, then you may want to pull her out and change to
another playschool if you have a different one in your town.

She complains that he won't let her play with the one other
friend she has, or sit by her at snack time, etc. I am also
very timid and have a very hard time standing up for myself,
or my daughter, especially with my friend, because I don't
want to lose our relationship.

What is more important - your friendship or your dd's happiness
and possible later abuse as she gets older?

Teach your dd at home how to be assertive.

Demonstrate assertive behavior (e.g., saying "No" to
another child's unacceptable demands) and contrast
aggressive or submissive responses through demonstrations.
Let children role-play with puppets or dolls.

Intervene when interactions seem headed for trouble and
suggest ways for children to compromise, or to express their
feelings in a productive way. (The teachers at that playschool
should be doing this too)

Teach her to seek help when confronted by the abuse of
power (physical abuse, sexual abuse, or other) by other
children or adults. (In the context of home, that means
coming to you and at school, it means going to her teachers
for help).

Remind her to ignore routine teasing by turning their heads
or walking away. Not all provocative behavior must be
acknowledged.

Teach her to ask for things directly and respond directly to
each other. Friendly suggestions are taken more readily
than bossy demands. Teach children to ask nicely, and to
respond appropriately to polite requests. (Actually, this
is what your friend should be doing with her son and you
may want to do this if you allow him to come over and
he starts out being bossy even if she won't do it. It will
help him to make other friends so she won't be his only
focus if he learns how to play without fighting and being
the boss. The playschool teachers should also be teaching
this to *all* the children).

After a conflict between children, ask those involved to
replay the scene. Show children how to resolve problems
firmly and fairly. (If the two of them are playing, you can
step in and ask them to replay the conflict in words and
figure out compromises - again the playschool teachers
should be doing this with all the children)

Show her how to tell bullies to stop hurtful acts and to
stand up for themselves when they are being treated
unfairly. (You may have to learn this yourself first - but
talk about it with her and give her the tools to do it)

Encourage her not to give up objects or territory to bullies
(e.g., say, "I'm using this toy now"). Preventing bullies from
getting what they want will discourage aggressive behavior.

Identify acts of aggression, bossiness, or discrimination for
her and teach her not to accept them (e.g., say, "Girls are
allowed to play that, too").

Show her the rewards of personal achievement through
standing up for themselves, rather than depending on the
approval of others solely.

When we go over to their house and she comes up to me and
wants to be held (I know why) and "Annette" says, "Why don't
you just go play with him? You aren't a little baby" or something
along those lines, I really don't know what to say (even though it
burns my up to hear her being belittled like that, time and time
again) other than "Oh, I think she's just tired"

You need to be upfront about why your dd doesn't want to play
with her son. Tell Annette that while you value her friendship,
your dd doesn't like being bullied by her son. After all, this is
the truth. Her son is bullying your dd and you need to step up
and intervene since she is only 4. Otherwise this can get worse
and worse as the years go on.

PLEASE help, someone. This is becoming a real problem, and
she is becoming more and more timid, shy and submissive all
the time. Any advice or comments are welcome!

Encourage her to have other friends over for playdates instead
of this boy. Instead of going to this mom's house, suggest a
park of a mall where you can keep and eye on the children's
interactions. And be prepared to intervene whenever he is around.
Do so gently, but firmly.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Newsgroups wrote:

PLEASE help, someone. This is becoming a real problem, and she is
becoming
more and more timid, shy and submissive all the time. Any advice or
comments
are welcome!

It sounds like this is something you can't just let slide.
This seems to be affecting your daughter, and you cannot allow your
fear to stand in the way of protecting her.
Personally, I think you have a number of things you can do:

1) Ask the preschool teachers to be more proactive. I don't believe
for a minute that there's nothing more they can do. They can
keep
your daughter close at hand and/or they can keep the boy close
at
hand. They can separate them. They can nudge one in one
direction
and the other in another. Once they're aware of the situation,
they *absolutely* have an obligation to do something about it.
I'd insist on it. They don't have to keep the two from ever
coming into contact, but there's a lot they can do.

2) Will they be in kindergarten next year? If so, you might
have a conversation with the principal about making sure
they're not in the same class next year. Don't badmouth
the boy at all. Just explain that they've been together
a lot over the past few years and the dynamic hasn't been
great between them lately and you think it would be much
better for your daughter socially to develop some new
ties as she moves into primary school.

3) Structure your interactions with your friend such that the
kids are very well supervised. Have fewer playdates in the
house and more outings to events that involve more parent/
child interaction.

4) Schedule *other* playdates for your daughter! Be too busy
to spend a lot of time with this boy.

5) When you're with this boy and your daughter, don't be afraid
to say something to him. Ideally, help to give your daughter
a voice. If he tells her to do something and she doesn't
want to do it, be down at their level with them, look him in
the eye, and say very firmly, "She said she doesn't want to
do that right now. Would you like to do X or Y?" Model the
behavior your daughter will need, and be there so that she
doesn't have to fear physical reprisal.

6) If your friend starts getting ornery about it, explain that
your daughter has been having challenges asserting herself
and she needs your support at this time to learn how to
express herself firmly and in appropriate ways. If that's
not working for your friend, you'll be happy to let her
know when things seem to be going more smoothly and you
don't need to be so hands on with your daughter. You don't
have to say a word about her son or his behavior ;-) If
you have to, resort to an appeal to authority and tell your
friend that you've been concerned about your daughter's
passivity and this is how you were advised to deal with it
and you're going to give it the old college try.

Best wishes,
Ericka

To the OP, I've been almost exactly in your shoes in the past. What
worked for us is outlined above in Ericka's most excellent post. I have
very little to add, except to emphasize that it goes a long, long way
to work with your DD and teach her how to stand up for herself. It's a
skill she'll carry with her forever, not just with this single
friendship.

I'll also add that I appealed to my friend by schmoozing her with a
little white lie. I confided in her, "I admire your child because she's
so much more assertive than my own DD, and I'm afraid assertiveness is
not a natural skill for me either. I have no idea where to start on
this! What are your secrets?"

My friend, bolstered by the compliment and my appeal to her superior
wisdom, then confessed to me that she feared her daughter was actually
too aggressive. This smoothed the way for an honest conversation about
how both kids needed to learn the art of assertiveness. One was too far
on the submissive side, the other too far on the aggressive side. We
chose to look at their relationship as a perfect match and a great
opportunity to teach both kids better behaviors.

There was a lot of fumbling in the beginning, as the two of us put our
heads together and tried to work out what it meant to be assertive, and
defined together what our ideal goal for the kids would be.

"I don't know - perhaps grabbing that toy away isn't assertive - would
you say that's more aggressive? Yeah. What do we do then. Hmmm. An
assertive approach when you want someone else's toy is maybe to ask
nicely? Perhaps bargain? Let's try that with them and see how it goes."
And then we'd BOTH get down with the kids on eye-level, and try out
different, better approaches, often with HER coaching my DD, and ME
coaching her DD.

Honestly, we did very little role-modeling, although I agree it
would've been a good strategy. We were just both pretty clueless.
Instead, we worked through the kids. Playdates became very, very
hands-on for months while we worked this out. It would've been much
easier to just sit and enjoy coffee, but we were motivated by the idea
if we could smooth things between them, we'd have many future peaceful
playdates where we could linger undisturbed over coffee! I very much
understand wanting to keep the friendship and not lose it.

Today, the two girls get along beautifully. They've both come a long,
long way.


jen

Put your daughter interest in front of yours, tell the mother that her
son has deep social problems and need to be disciplined before he is
allowed to interact with other for their safeties. Obviously, the boy
is very controlling, not let your child play with others beside him and
the mother looks another way. If the mother condones her son behaviour
at the expense of your child interest, her friendship with you doesn't
mean much.

I have a more complex and intricate problem than yours, will post my
story later

Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
5) When you're with this boy and your daughter, don't be afraid
to say something to him. Ideally, help to give your daughter
a voice. If he tells her to do something and she doesn't
want to do it, be down at their level with them, look him in
the eye, and say very firmly, "She said she doesn't want to
do that right now. Would you like to do X or Y?" Model the
behavior your daughter will need, and be there so that she
doesn't have to fear physical reprisal.

Excellent advice. At the same time, you would also be
modelling the behaviour the boy's mother will need.

She knows that her boy is controlling and violent,
and she feels defensive and in denial about it.
If you can show her a way for an adult to interact
with the two of them that improves the dynamic,
she may happily copy it without ever feeling as
if someone is criticizing her.

To overcome your own timidity: you can practice.
Get two people -- maybe your husband and your daughter --
to pretend to be your daughter and the boy.
(I see advantages and I'm not sure if I see
disadvantages to letting
your daughter be part of this.) Pretend you've
just seen the boy hit your daughter, or tell
your daughter not to play with another child, or
something. Practice saying whatever you would
say and doing whatever you would do. If you
practice like that, it's so much easier to
do it when it really happens. You can also
invite your daughter to practice what she
would say in the same situations. You can also
try out saying various things and ask the
other participants, who are pretending to be
the people involved, how they felt when
you said that, to experiment and see what works.

You could say to the mother something like,
"we're setting up consistent house rules for
all children who live in or are visiting our
house. If a child ever hits or pushes or hurts
another child while in our house, our rule is
that the child has to leave the room for
20 minutes. We're applying this rule to our
daughter and we want her to see that the same
rule applies fairly to other children, too,
when they're in our house.
If this ever happens with boy's
name, would you like to be the one to ask him to
leave the room, or would you prefer I do it?"
Note that she may get angry and defensive
on hearing this.

It could actually be an advantage to have him
over visiting a lot, because in your own house
you can supervise closely and you can make the
rules, and you may be able to teach them ways
of interacting so the two of them will get along
better outside your house too.

You can ask your daughter at the end of each
playgroup session whether she wanted to play
with the other friend and whether the boy
prevented her, and each day that she says
she was prevented, then at the beginning of
the next playgroup session you can hand the
teachers a note saying "today's date yesterday
daughter's name wanted to play with friend
and boy's name prevented her." The first time
you can talk to them and add "please make sure
she has the freedom to play with the friends
of her choice without other children interfering."
Or if you don't get a chance to talk with them
you can hand them a note saying that.
When she does succeed in playing with the
other friend, you can hand the teachers a note
saying "thank you for empowering my daughter;
she was able to play with friend yesterday."
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

Irrational Number ) writes:
Why don't you try telling your friend gently
what her son is doing? You don't have to accuse
him of anything, just mention that he seems to
be a bit bossy... Or, if he does do any arm-
twisting, reprimand him gently in a voice loud
enough for her to hear.

Actually, I don't think it's necessary to
say to the mother that he's "a bit bossy"
or anything like that. Instead, you can
approach it as: "all children get into
conflicts sometimes. Our kids really enjoy
playing with each other. Let's talk about
how we're going to handle things when they
do get into the occasional argument or even
hurt each other." Remember that it's possible
that your daughter might hurt the boy sometime,
and be ready to do whatever you'd agreed on.

You can discuss various ways of handling
conflicts without accusing the mother of
having a child who's any more violent than
average. Well, actually, she may feel
as if she's being accused of that just
because she knows it's true and because
you're raising the subject! But at least
using more diplomatic approaches you may
get further.

It's not necessary for the mother to recognize
that she has a child more violent and controlling
than average. What is necessary is for the
mother to learn better ways of supervising
children when they act controlling, and of
teaching children not to be like that.

You could look for resources such as parenting
books, parenting classes, conferences on parenting
etc. You could look for ones that you yourself
actually have some interest in learning something
from, and then say to the mother, "Look at this!
This looks really interesting. I think I'm going
to go to this. Do you want to go with me? It
would be fun to go together."

You could read parenting books that tell what
to do when you have a child who hits, controls
other children etc., and then you could do a
lot of those same things with the boy.
The book that springs to mind is "Secrets
of Discipline" by R. Morrish, but there are
lots of other good parenting books, too.

--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

toto ) writes:
After a conflict between children, ask those involved to
replay the scene. Show children how to resolve problems
firmly and fairly. (If the two of them are playing, you can
step in and ask them to replay the conflict in words and
figure out compromises - again the playschool teachers
should be doing this with all the children)

Excellent advice!

.... and if you're feeling timid about doing this,
you can also role-play replaying. That is: get
your husband and your daughter (or any other two
supportive people) and ask them to help you
learn how to handle children's conflicts. They
pretend to be two children fighting, and then you
step in and say "wait, wait! Let's go back to
the beginning and do this over again using
words instead of hitting." Then you supervise
them pretending to replay the scene.

Sometimes when a child replays the scene, they
act very non-assertive. For example: a child
was angry because it was that child's turn to
have a certain toy, so the child hit the other
child. When you ask them to replay it without
hitting, the child just calmly says "that's OK,
you can play with the toy." Then you have to
remind them to be assertive: "But remember:
when this really happened, you were feeling angry.
You were feeling that something very unfair was
happening to you. How can you express those
feelings with words?" You need to get them
to say, "This is unfair!" or go to an adult
for help or say "I'm really angry!" or "It's
my turn! Why aren't you giving me the toy!"
or something.

You can help two children to negotiate by
repeating everything they said, like an
interpreter. When an adult does this, the
children tend to act more respectful than
if they're just talking directly to each other.

E.g.
Child 1: I want the red one to be at the front.
Adult to child 2: She says she would like the red
one at the front.
Child 2: But it should be the blue one, because
it's always the blue one.
Adult to child 1: He prefers the blue one at
the front.
Child 1: How about if we put a yellow one at
the front?
Adult to child 2: She suggests a yellow one
at the front.
Child 2: OK.

If the children had been talking directly to
each other, they would have ignored each other's
messages. The adult translates the children's
messages into gentler words and into the
language of creative problem-solving (suggestions
rather than demands, etc.) The adult also, by
repeating what each child says, helps that child
to feel that his/her message has been heard and
has been given space on the stage. Then the child
can more easily let go of a specific negotiating
position, because it has at least been shown respect.
The adult is also modelling more
cooperative and effective wording which the
children can use on their own in the future
because they can see it works.

At the same time, the adult can also be
actually standing (or sitting, squatting etc.)
between the two children, so there is
no possibility of physical violence arising
as long as you're quick enough to shift position when
they slowly or suddenly try to dart around you to hit.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

Newsgroups wrote:

up a fight. At playschool, the teachers have told me that he won't
allow her to play with other kids, but there's not too much that they
do about it. She complains that he won't let her play with the one
other friend she has, or sit by her at snack time, etc. I am also
very timid and have a very hard time standing up for myself, or my
daughter, especially with my friend, because I don't want to lose our
relationship. When we go over to their house and she comes up to me
and wants to be held (I know why) and "Annette" says, "Why don't you
just go play with him? You aren't a little baby" or something along
those lines, I really don't know what to say (even though it burns my
up to hear her being belittled like that, time and time again) other
than "Oh, I think she's just tired"

If an "Annette" said something like that to my child (I have a 4yo boy)
under similar circumstances, or at all, I'd be quite miffed. That was a
nasty thing to say to a child and totally inappropriate. Teaching your child
some assertiveness skills is part of your job but you have to model them,
too, and not let her be bullied by child or mother.

In that situation I might have swung my daughter up in my arms to give her a
big hug and a kiss and say something like "Oh, she'll always be my baby,
won't you, darling" and spend a few moments in rapport with her so she knows
that I know what an important person she is and that I like her to come to
me when she needs me. If it happened more than once or twice I'd have to
make my feelings known, regardless of the potential damage to our
friendship. Apart from anything else, my anger would spoil it and I'd
probably drift away. If it's a friendship worth keeping, then it's worth
facing your problems directly - and tactfully, of course.

Maybe Annette's son craves attention and needs to feel as if he matters to
his friends so overwhelms them to get it?

And I wholeheartedly agree with Dorothy's wise words on how to deal with the
child-child relationship.

Tai