my friend's controlling son

Thanks, Ericka. I guess I know all of what you are saying is true, and
really always have, but you hit the nail right on the head when you said
that I can't let my fear stand in the way of protecting her. That is exactly
how I should be seeing it.

The first reply I get to my second posting on this newsgroup and it's
already excellent advice! Impressive...

Charlene

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Newsgroups wrote:

PLEASE help, someone. This is becoming a real problem, and she is
becoming more and more timid, shy and submissive all the time. Any advice
or comments are welcome!

It sounds like this is something you can't just let slide.
This seems to be affecting your daughter, and you cannot allow your
fear to stand in the way of protecting her.
Personally, I think you have a number of things you can do:

1) Ask the preschool teachers to be more proactive. I don't believe
for a minute that there's nothing more they can do. They can keep
your daughter close at hand and/or they can keep the boy close at
hand. They can separate them. They can nudge one in one direction
and the other in another. Once they're aware of the situation,
they *absolutely* have an obligation to do something about it.
I'd insist on it. They don't have to keep the two from ever
coming into contact, but there's a lot they can do.

2) Will they be in kindergarten next year? If so, you might
have a conversation with the principal about making sure
they're not in the same class next year. Don't badmouth
the boy at all. Just explain that they've been together
a lot over the past few years and the dynamic hasn't been
great between them lately and you think it would be much
better for your daughter socially to develop some new
ties as she moves into primary school.

3) Structure your interactions with your friend such that the
kids are very well supervised. Have fewer playdates in the
house and more outings to events that involve more parent/
child interaction.

4) Schedule *other* playdates for your daughter! Be too busy
to spend a lot of time with this boy.

5) When you're with this boy and your daughter, don't be afraid
to say something to him. Ideally, help to give your daughter
a voice. If he tells her to do something and she doesn't
want to do it, be down at their level with them, look him in
the eye, and say very firmly, "She said she doesn't want to
do that right now. Would you like to do X or Y?" Model the
behavior your daughter will need, and be there so that she
doesn't have to fear physical reprisal.

6) If your friend starts getting ornery about it, explain that
your daughter has been having challenges asserting herself
and she needs your support at this time to learn how to
express herself firmly and in appropriate ways. If that's
not working for your friend, you'll be happy to let her
know when things seem to be going more smoothly and you
don't need to be so hands on with your daughter. You don't
have to say a word about her son or his behavior ;-) If
you have to, resort to an appeal to authority and tell your
friend that you've been concerned about your daughter's
passivity and this is how you were advised to deal with it
and you're going to give it the old college try.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Hi there...you are right about many things, but I guess I wasn't clear in my
first post about many other things. I'll try to explain more now:

"Irrational Number" wrote in message
ink.net...
Newsgroups wrote:

[...] ..My daughter is the only one he loves playing with. He loves
coming over, and having her over there. She likes him too, and likes to
play with him, but he is getting increasingly controlling of her and is
even starting to become physically abusive, when he thinks no one is
watching (ie: twisting her arm if she won't come with him, pushing,

I'm someone who stands up easily for myself,
so I'm afraid I cannot be very sympathetic
about this... My first thought upon reading
your post is: Are you reading your own post?
Do you see that you are teaching your daughter
by example how to deal with bullies???

You HAVE to be your daughter's advocate. The
other boy is a child; you can also teach him.
Do you stop him when he twists your daughter's
arm? I cannot believe that you would stand by
and let that happen!

The first time this happened, I didn't see it, in fact had no idea at all
that he could be violent. I did see it while I was babysitting him, in my
own home. Needless to say I was *very* angry, and very firmly told him that
that kind of stuff would NOT be tolerated in my home, and that he had to
leave the room. He started crying, and I told him he wouldn't be back if I
ever saw that again. BUT, I don't think I could say anything if his mom was
around. Therein lies the problem. I have to get over myself.

etc.) I think the reason he likes her so much is that she is very
submissive, and doesn't put up a fight.
[...] I am also very timid and have a very hard time standing up for
myself, or my daughter, especially with my friend, because I don't want
to lose our relationship.



Whenever he does anything like that, you have
to say something like: "we don't hurt other
people", or "that's not nice", or something to
that effect. If your daughter sees you doing
nothing, she learns to do nothing.

You say you do not want to lose this friendship...
Let me tell you, if you do not do anything, sometime
sooner or later, you WILL lose this friendship.
What will it take? When her son beats up your
daughter in grade school?

Why don't you try telling your friend gently
what her son is doing? You don't have to accuse
him of anything, just mention that he seems to
be a bit bossy...

Because that would be a one way ticket out of the friendship, just as it was
for her childhood friend. She is SO defensive of him because I think she
knows what we try to say is true. You're also right, the friendship will
probably end anyway, as long as this is an issue anyway.

Or, if he does do any arm-
twisting, reprimand him gently in a voice loud
enough for her to hear.

I am very worried for your daughter. But, like
I said, I don't understand people who are timid
and don't speak up for themselves. Mind you, I
don't bully, but I don't let myself or my loved
ones be bullied. I would NEVER let anyone bully
my child! My child's well-being comes before
my friendship with someone.

-- Anita --



"Irrational Number" wrote in message
ink.net...
Newsgroups wrote:

[...] ..My daughter is the only one he loves playing with. He loves
coming over, and having her over there. She likes him too, and likes to
play with him, but he is getting increasingly controlling of her and is
even starting to become physically abusive, when he thinks no one is
watching (ie: twisting her arm if she won't come with him, pushing,
etc.) I think the reason he likes her so much is that she is very
submissive, and doesn't put up a fight.
[...] I am also very timid and have a very hard time standing up for
myself, or my daughter, especially with my friend, because I don't want
to lose our relationship.

I'm someone who stands up easily for myself,
so I'm afraid I cannot be very sympathetic
about this... My first thought upon reading
your post is: Are you reading your own post?
Do you see that you are teaching your daughter
by example how to deal with bullies???

You HAVE to be your daughter's advocate. The
other boy is a child; you can also teach him.
Do you stop him when he twists your daughter's
arm? I cannot believe that you would stand by
and let that happen!

Whenever he does anything like that, you have
to say something like: "we don't hurt other
people", or "that's not nice", or something to
that effect. If your daughter sees you doing
nothing, she learns to do nothing.

You say you do not want to lose this friendship...
Let me tell you, if you do not do anything, sometime
sooner or later, you WILL lose this friendship.
What will it take? When her son beats up your
daughter in grade school?

Why don't you try telling your friend gently
what her son is doing? You don't have to accuse
him of anything, just mention that he seems to
be a bit bossy... Or, if he does do any arm-
twisting, reprimand him gently in a voice loud
enough for her to hear.

I am very worried for your daughter. But, like
I said, I don't understand people who are timid
and don't speak up for themselves. Mind you, I
don't bully, but I don't let myself or my loved
ones be bullied. I would NEVER let anyone bully
my child! My child's well-being comes before
my friendship with someone.

-- Anita --

"Charlene" wrote in message
news:8036e.946558$6l.228761@pd7tw2no...
Thanks, Ericka. I guess I know all of what you are saying is true, and
really always have, but you hit the nail right on the head when you said
that I can't let my fear stand in the way of protecting her. That is
exactly how I should be seeing it.

The first reply I get to my second posting on this newsgroup and it's
already excellent advice! Impressive...

Charlene

Charlene,

I don't really have any excellent advice to give you. I'm just struck at
how different we are. When I perceive someone to be mean to my
kids, all reason goes out the window, and I enter "Mama Bear"
protective mode.

Just the other day for example, DS was at baseball practice. The
kids were standing in line waiting for their turn to catch, and the boy
behind DS grabbed his hair and yanked his head backwards.

I happened to be standing right next to DS at the time, and so
without thinking, I grabbed the boy's wrist, looked him straight
in the eye and said, "That was really mean. I don't want to see
you do that again."

Only *afterwards* did it occur to me that *his* mom might
take exception to what I'd done. I know the Mama Bear in
me wouldn't like seeing another woman holding DS's arm and
speaking sternly to him. But at the time it was all instinct.

So, I guess the best is somewhere in between the two of us.
And for that, I agree with Ericka's excellent advice!

Bizby

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Newsgroups wrote:

PLEASE help, someone. This is becoming a real problem, and she is
becoming more and more timid, shy and submissive all the time. Any
advice or comments are welcome!

It sounds like this is something you can't just let slide.
This seems to be affecting your daughter, and you cannot allow your
fear to stand in the way of protecting her.
Personally, I think you have a number of things you can do:

1) Ask the preschool teachers to be more proactive. I don't believe
for a minute that there's nothing more they can do. They can keep
your daughter close at hand and/or they can keep the boy close at
hand. They can separate them. They can nudge one in one direction
and the other in another. Once they're aware of the situation,
they *absolutely* have an obligation to do something about it.
I'd insist on it. They don't have to keep the two from ever
coming into contact, but there's a lot they can do.

2) Will they be in kindergarten next year? If so, you might
have a conversation with the principal about making sure
they're not in the same class next year. Don't badmouth
the boy at all. Just explain that they've been together
a lot over the past few years and the dynamic hasn't been
great between them lately and you think it would be much
better for your daughter socially to develop some new
ties as she moves into primary school.

3) Structure your interactions with your friend such that the
kids are very well supervised. Have fewer playdates in the
house and more outings to events that involve more parent/
child interaction.

4) Schedule *other* playdates for your daughter! Be too busy
to spend a lot of time with this boy.

5) When you're with this boy and your daughter, don't be afraid
to say something to him. Ideally, help to give your daughter
a voice. If he tells her to do something and she doesn't
want to do it, be down at their level with them, look him in
the eye, and say very firmly, "She said she doesn't want to
do that right now. Would you like to do X or Y?" Model the
behavior your daughter will need, and be there so that she
doesn't have to fear physical reprisal.

6) If your friend starts getting ornery about it, explain that
your daughter has been having challenges asserting herself
and she needs your support at this time to learn how to
express herself firmly and in appropriate ways. If that's
not working for your friend, you'll be happy to let her
know when things seem to be going more smoothly and you
don't need to be so hands on with your daughter. You don't
have to say a word about her son or his behavior ;-) If
you have to, resort to an appeal to authority and tell your
friend that you've been concerned about your daughter's
passivity and this is how you were advised to deal with it
and you're going to give it the old college try.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Charlene wrote:


Because that would be a one way ticket out of the friendship, just as
it was
for her childhood friend. She is SO defensive of him because I think
she
knows what we try to say is true. You're also right, the friendship
will
probably end anyway, as long as this is an issue anyway.


I've had this kind of situation with my kids when they were growing up.
Not so clear-cut; it was just that my kids didn't enjoy some of my
friends' children at particular ages. (Sometimes they didn't enjoy my
friends, either...kids can be irrational, as I well recall from some of
my own likes and dislikes when I was a child.) A bit disappointing, but
sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

I'd just like to make a few comments.

1. Things change. The little guy who's so aggressive now may become an
easy kid later, once he learns to play nicely or just plain grows out
of it. Some kids my kids didn't like when they were little became
friends later on.

2. Your friendship can be independent of your kids. Since both kids are
at pre-school, see if you can't meet her separately. Just say something
about wanting time with her when you're not distracted. I have to say I
found it *much* easier to spend time with my friends when my kids were
not with me.

3. While I agree with everyone who says it's a good idea to teach your
daughter to stand up for herself, I think it's to some extent a
separate issue. Your issue is how to preserve the friendship that you
clearly value while protecting your daughter.

4. Discourage playdates with this kid for now. After a year in
preschool, he'll probably be a lot easier to get along with. Just say
something about not having your kid play with him because she's going
through a timid phase, and you want to get her to be more assertive, so
you want her to play with kids who are not as assertive to give her
courage.

Just my thoughts. Hope it all works out.

Rupa

Bizby,

At the risk of sounding defensive (I do feel a bit that way right now,
however) I must tell you that I, in no way, would let my daughter be
trampled on by someone else. I guess I didn't make it clear that the arm
twisting thing happened at my home when his mom wasn't here, and I dealt
with it accordingly, but believe me, whether she was here or not in that
particular instance, I would have stepped in just like that. I maybe
wouldn't have been as firm (or ANGRY) with him as I would have been if she
were here, but nonetheless, she and/or he would have heard something. I have
called a parent who's child was threatening my 12 year old daughter years
ago and had no problem sticking up for her then at all. I have also told
some kids where to go (figuratively, not literally!) when they so much as
think of kicking sand in my kids' faces at the playground and not thought
much of what they thought (well, a little bit anyway!)

Now, that being said, yes I did say (and truthfully, I admit) that I am
having a hard time in this instance because the mom and I are so close, and
because this kid is an awfully cute and loving kid who I know very well, and
is like a member of our family.Our kids were born the same day in the same
hospital, only hours apart. They are as close as close can be, and she
actually does love the kid. I am not willing to do or say anything that will
sever mine and his mom's relationship, nor hers and his. This was the reason
for my post, I find that for some reason I am in a bind here. I am the type
of person who cares far too much about what others think, yes, but in this
case I really don't know how to walk on the eggshells without cracking them
further.

But I do appreciate the advice and comments, which I willingly asked for. I
just hope I didn't come across as some kind of incredibly wimpy mother who
would rather watch my daugher get beaten by a group of punks before stepping
in. That ain't me!

....Charlene
"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Charlene" wrote in message
news:8036e.946558$6l.228761@pd7tw2no...
Thanks, Ericka. I guess I know all of what you are saying is true, and
really always have, but you hit the nail right on the head when you said
that I can't let my fear stand in the way of protecting her. That is
exactly how I should be seeing it.

The first reply I get to my second posting on this newsgroup and it's
already excellent advice! Impressive...

Charlene

Charlene,

I don't really have any excellent advice to give you. I'm just struck at
how different we are. When I perceive someone to be mean to my
kids, all reason goes out the window, and I enter "Mama Bear"
protective mode.

Just the other day for example, DS was at baseball practice. The
kids were standing in line waiting for their turn to catch, and the boy
behind DS grabbed his hair and yanked his head backwards.

I happened to be standing right next to DS at the time, and so
without thinking, I grabbed the boy's wrist, looked him straight
in the eye and said, "That was really mean. I don't want to see
you do that again."

Only *afterwards* did it occur to me that *his* mom might
take exception to what I'd done. I know the Mama Bear in
me wouldn't like seeing another woman holding DS's arm and
speaking sternly to him. But at the time it was all instinct.

So, I guess the best is somewhere in between the two of us.
And for that, I agree with Ericka's excellent advice!

Bizby

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Newsgroups wrote:

PLEASE help, someone. This is becoming a real problem, and she is
becoming more and more timid, shy and submissive all the time. Any
advice or comments are welcome!

It sounds like this is something you can't just let slide.
This seems to be affecting your daughter, and you cannot allow your
fear to stand in the way of protecting her.
Personally, I think you have a number of things you can do:

1) Ask the preschool teachers to be more proactive. I don't believe
for a minute that there's nothing more they can do. They can keep
your daughter close at hand and/or they can keep the boy close at
hand. They can separate them. They can nudge one in one direction
and the other in another. Once they're aware of the situation,
they *absolutely* have an obligation to do something about it.
I'd insist on it. They don't have to keep the two from ever
coming into contact, but there's a lot they can do.

2) Will they be in kindergarten next year? If so, you might
have a conversation with the principal about making sure
they're not in the same class next year. Don't badmouth
the boy at all. Just explain that they've been together
a lot over the past few years and the dynamic hasn't been
great between them lately and you think it would be much
better for your daughter socially to develop some new
ties as she moves into primary school.

3) Structure your interactions with your friend such that the
kids are very well supervised. Have fewer playdates in the
house and more outings to events that involve more parent/
child interaction.

4) Schedule *other* playdates for your daughter! Be too busy
to spend a lot of time with this boy.

5) When you're with this boy and your daughter, don't be afraid
to say something to him. Ideally, help to give your daughter
a voice. If he tells her to do something and she doesn't
want to do it, be down at their level with them, look him in
the eye, and say very firmly, "She said she doesn't want to
do that right now. Would you like to do X or Y?" Model the
behavior your daughter will need, and be there so that she
doesn't have to fear physical reprisal.

6) If your friend starts getting ornery about it, explain that
your daughter has been having challenges asserting herself
and she needs your support at this time to learn how to
express herself firmly and in appropriate ways. If that's
not working for your friend, you'll be happy to let her
know when things seem to be going more smoothly and you
don't need to be so hands on with your daughter. You don't
have to say a word about her son or his behavior ;-) If
you have to, resort to an appeal to authority and tell your
friend that you've been concerned about your daughter's
passivity and this is how you were advised to deal with it
and you're going to give it the old college try.

Best wishes,
Ericka

THANK YOU! You've got it, exactly what I've been trying to say! Good
advice.

....Charlene
wrote in message
oups.com...

Charlene wrote:


Because that would be a one way ticket out of the friendship, just as
it was
for her childhood friend. She is SO defensive of him because I think
she
knows what we try to say is true. You're also right, the friendship
will
probably end anyway, as long as this is an issue anyway.


I've had this kind of situation with my kids when they were growing up.
Not so clear-cut; it was just that my kids didn't enjoy some of my
friends' children at particular ages. (Sometimes they didn't enjoy my
friends, either...kids can be irrational, as I well recall from some of
my own likes and dislikes when I was a child.) A bit disappointing, but
sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

I'd just like to make a few comments.

1. Things change. The little guy who's so aggressive now may become an
easy kid later, once he learns to play nicely or just plain grows out
of it. Some kids my kids didn't like when they were little became
friends later on.

2. Your friendship can be independent of your kids. Since both kids are
at pre-school, see if you can't meet her separately. Just say something
about wanting time with her when you're not distracted. I have to say I
found it *much* easier to spend time with my friends when my kids were
not with me.

3. While I agree with everyone who says it's a good idea to teach your
daughter to stand up for herself, I think it's to some extent a
separate issue. Your issue is how to preserve the friendship that you
clearly value while protecting your daughter.

4. Discourage playdates with this kid for now. After a year in
preschool, he'll probably be a lot easier to get along with. Just say
something about not having your kid play with him because she's going
through a timid phase, and you want to get her to be more assertive, so
you want her to play with kids who are not as assertive to give her
courage.

Just my thoughts. Hope it all works out.

Rupa

Wow....were did you learn all those words of wisdon? Are you a child
psychologist or a childcare worker? Seriously, that sounds like something
that would work. I must sound like I'm sucking up here or something, but
honestly, this is some of the best advice that I have been given on this
subject from people other than those in the "real world"!

"Catherine Woodgold" wrote in message
...

toto ) writes:
After a conflict between children, ask those involved to
replay the scene. Show children how to resolve problems
firmly and fairly. (If the two of them are playing, you can
step in and ask them to replay the conflict in words and
figure out compromises - again the playschool teachers
should be doing this with all the children)

Excellent advice!

... and if you're feeling timid about doing this,
you can also role-play replaying. That is: get
your husband and your daughter (or any other two
supportive people) and ask them to help you
learn how to handle children's conflicts. They
pretend to be two children fighting, and then you
step in and say "wait, wait! Let's go back to
the beginning and do this over again using
words instead of hitting." Then you supervise
them pretending to replay the scene.

Sometimes when a child replays the scene, they
act very non-assertive. For example: a child
was angry because it was that child's turn to
have a certain toy, so the child hit the other
child. When you ask them to replay it without
hitting, the child just calmly says "that's OK,
you can play with the toy." Then you have to
remind them to be assertive: "But remember:
when this really happened, you were feeling angry.
You were feeling that something very unfair was
happening to you. How can you express those
feelings with words?" You need to get them
to say, "This is unfair!" or go to an adult
for help or say "I'm really angry!" or "It's
my turn! Why aren't you giving me the toy!"
or something.

You can help two children to negotiate by
repeating everything they said, like an
interpreter. When an adult does this, the
children tend to act more respectful than
if they're just talking directly to each other.

E.g.
Child 1: I want the red one to be at the front.
Adult to child 2: She says she would like the red
one at the front.
Child 2: But it should be the blue one, because
it's always the blue one.
Adult to child 1: He prefers the blue one at
the front.
Child 1: How about if we put a yellow one at
the front?
Adult to child 2: She suggests a yellow one
at the front.
Child 2: OK.

If the children had been talking directly to
each other, they would have ignored each other's
messages. The adult translates the children's
messages into gentler words and into the
language of creative problem-solving (suggestions
rather than demands, etc.) The adult also, by
repeating what each child says, helps that child
to feel that his/her message has been heard and
has been given space on the stage. Then the child
can more easily let go of a specific negotiating
position, because it has at least been shown respect.
The adult is also modelling more
cooperative and effective wording which the
children can use on their own in the future
because they can see it works.

At the same time, the adult can also be
actually standing (or sitting, squatting etc.)
between the two children, so there is
no possibility of physical violence arising
as long as you're quick enough to shift position when
they slowly or suddenly try to dart around you to hit.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"Newsgroups" ) writes:
(I know why) and "Annette" says, "Why don't you just go play with him? You
aren't a little baby" or something along those lines, I really don't know
what to say (even though it burns my up to hear her being belittled like
that, time and time again) other than "Oh, I think she's just tired"

I hope you don't mind me suggesting that you could take
an assertiveness training course. "Effectiveness training"
based on Thomas Gordon's material is very good. Or you
could read a book such as "Effectiveness training for
women" by Linda Adams, though taking a course usually makes
a lot more difference than reading a book.

You could say things like:

"When you call her a baby, I feel my daughter is being
insulted." She will likely respond defensively, and it's a good
idea to switch to active-listening: "I can see that what
I just said upset you." etc. Being sympathetic and saying
things to acknowledge her feelings, though without taking
back what you said. You can say "I'm sorry that what I
just said upset you," without actually taking it back.
That's the sort of thing you might learn to say in the
Effectiveness Training course.

Other things you might consider saying:

"Please let me handle this."

"She's a big four-year-old, and she's assertive enough
to ask for affection when she needs it."

"Thanks, but actually I don't mind having her in
my lap while we talk -- I rather like the cuddliness."

First, you need to convince yourself that if your
friend gets angry or is annoyed or inconvenienced,
it's not the end of the world. You can think to
yourself, "by saying this, I'm risking that my friend
will get angry. If my friend gets angry, I will be
able to accept that. I'm willing to accept this
risk because it's worth it for me not to feel
burned up. My feelings are as important as my
friend's feelings." You can repeat that sort of
thing to yourself.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"Sushi Fish" ) writes:
Put your daughter interest in front of yours, tell the mother that her
son has deep social problems and need to be disciplined before he is
allowed to interact with other for their safeties.

That's not necessary. It's necessary for the mother to
learn to teach her boy not to be controlling,
but it's not necessary for her to admit that her boy
is any worse than average.

Telling her something terrible about her boy will probably just
get her angry -- it probably won't lead to her
learning anything useful.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

"Charlene" ) writes:
Wow....were did you learn all those words of wisdon? Are you a child
psychologist or a childcare worker? Seriously, that sounds like something
that would work. I must sound like I'm sucking up here or something, but
honestly, this is some of the best advice that I have been given on this
subject from people other than those in the "real world"!

Thanks!!

I'm not always that good in the "real world"! Sometimes
I act on impulse, get selfish, think of something clever
to say after the moment has passed, etc.

I'm a parent of two kids and I've read books on
parenting, gone to lectures and stuff.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.