Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

Caledonia wrote:
I'm in complete agreement with this hand, and confess I will fall into
the trap of the 'erase it and do it over' role w/r/t DD1's homework.
Her penmanship is not great, and she still will write 5's and 2's
backwards. This was fine, until they started having math homework (1st
grade), where answering 5+7 = 15 (backwards 2) was not cool. I remember
days and days of having to write circles, then vertical lines, then
letter a, d, b, c, q, g and so on -- those days, AFAIK, are about as
likely as kids still having a nap in 1/2 day kindergarten. So...I give
her penmanship homework, big meanie that I am, and she's pleased that
her teacher (who has a very hands-off approach to penmanship, except
w/r/t math) has commented on her improvement. But heavens, did they run
out of time to reinforce penmanship -- just for the sake of
legibility, even -- in the elementary grades?

On the issue of penmanship, my experience here with my eldest DD is
that some kids have weak muscles in their forearm. This has nothing to
do with reversing numbers, but it does impact the quality of their
penmanship. If your forearm muscles are weak, you tend to have sloppy,
illegible handwriting.

DD's kindergartner teacher picked up on this right away, and instead of
having her write letters on ruled paper over and over again, she
suggested I tack a big piece of paper on to her bedroom wall next to
her bed, and encourage her to color and draw "on the wall" everynight
before bedtime. It was an enjoyable, fun activity for DD, and
apparently the slant helps build the forearm muscles. Today her
handwriting is not bad at all.

And I can also personally attest to the weak-muscle theory, cuz ever
since I learned how to type on a computer, my handwriting has become
sloppier and sloppier and sloppier.

jen

In article .com, Caledonia
says...


Banty wrote:
In article .com, Caledonia
says...


Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Beth Kevles wrote:

The other useful homework is 20 minutes/day of free reading. DO help
your child on this one if your child needs help. Otherwise, just keep
an eye on what your child likes to read. (It makes gift times so much
easier if you know what they've already read!)

Yet another unintended consequence of too much
homework in the early grades. Kids don't read for
pleasure when they've had a full day of school followed
by wrestling through lots of homework. For many kids,
their mental energy is *gone* by that time.

Hmmm...Given that their mental energy is *gone*, though, does this also
mean that having kids then take dancing/karate/soccer practice/cub
scouts after school is also not a good idea? All of these require some
mental focus, too.

But these things are quite different and really don't call on the same kind of
focus. They're a big change of pace from the schooling activities.

Too true -- and I was bringing these up in a devil's advocate fashion.

It seems to me (IRL) that having little kids participate in an
organized/structured physical activity (versus just walking, playing
kick the can, playing on the monkey bars, etc.) is socially lauded --
even with the attendant practices that these activities require. (For
the first grade soccer league in town, it's 2 weekly practices of 45
minutes each plus 1weekly game lasting ~ 1 hour.) Yet suggest 90
minutes of homework per week, and some people think that the school
system has gone too far....

I mean, for pete's sake, the whole point of practicing soccer is to
improve (ditto piano, dance, karate) -- so why is it so crazy to have
kids also practice some of what they've covered in school? Is it
because organized/structured physical activities (and yep, I'm
stressing the 'organized/structured laden with rules' activities,
because I'm all for letting kids run around in the yard and make up
their own rules) somehow addresses another part of their development,
the part that's okay to devote hours to practicing? Grr.

Simply because, in a phrase, they've already spent HOURS doing it IN SCHOOL!


(Sorry -- I'm ranting. Too much exposure in my youth to a school
centered around AAAA football, perhaps. But grrrrr...)

Only Stephanie, me, and anonymama can rant!

OK, weee'lll leeett you....

Banty

"Caledonia" wrote in message
oups.com...

Banty wrote:
In article .com,
Caledonia
says...


Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Beth Kevles wrote:

The other useful homework is 20 minutes/day of free reading. DO
help
your child on this one if your child needs help. Otherwise, just
keep
an eye on what your child likes to read. (It makes gift times so
much
easier if you know what they've already read!)

Yet another unintended consequence of too much
homework in the early grades. Kids don't read for
pleasure when they've had a full day of school followed
by wrestling through lots of homework. For many kids,
their mental energy is *gone* by that time.

Hmmm...Given that their mental energy is *gone*, though, does this also
mean that having kids then take dancing/karate/soccer practice/cub
scouts after school is also not a good idea? All of these require some
mental focus, too.

But these things are quite different and really don't call on the same
kind of
focus. They're a big change of pace from the schooling activities.

Too true -- and I was bringing these up in a devil's advocate fashion.

It seems to me (IRL) that having little kids participate in an
organized/structured physical activity (versus just walking, playing
kick the can, playing on the monkey bars, etc.) is socially lauded --
even with the attendant practices that these activities require. (For
the first grade soccer league in town, it's 2 weekly practices of 45
minutes each plus 1weekly game lasting ~ 1 hour.) Yet suggest 90
minutes of homework per week, and some people think that the school
system has gone too far....

I mean, for pete's sake, the whole point of practicing soccer is to
improve (ditto piano, dance, karate) -- so why is it so crazy to have
kids also practice some of what they've covered in school? Is it
because organized/structured physical activities (and yep, I'm
stressing the 'organized/structured laden with rules' activities,
because I'm all for letting kids run around in the yard and make up
their own rules) somehow addresses another part of their development,
the part that's okay to devote hours to practicing? Grr.

(Sorry -- I'm ranting. Too much exposure in my youth to a school
centered around AAAA football, perhaps. But grrrrr...)

Because 1) Those extra curricular activities are by choice. No one
says you have to sign up for them if you don't want to.

And 2) They already get 30 hours/week of school. That 90 minutes
is on *top* of that.

Bizby

Caledonia wrote:

It seems to me (IRL) that having little kids participate in an
organized/structured physical activity (versus just walking, playing
kick the can, playing on the monkey bars, etc.) is socially lauded --
even with the attendant practices that these activities require. (For
the first grade soccer league in town, it's 2 weekly practices of 45
minutes each plus 1weekly game lasting ~ 1 hour.) Yet suggest 90
minutes of homework per week, and some people think that the school
system has gone too far....

But it's 90 minutes of homework on top of 32 hours
of schooling already. And, of course, my kids have a heck
of a lot more homework than 90 minutes a week.

I mean, for pete's sake, the whole point of practicing soccer is to
improve (ditto piano, dance, karate) -- so why is it so crazy to have
kids also practice some of what they've covered in school?

Why can't they do it in the time they already
have, barring some learning of spelling words and reading
and such? Why should my 8yo be going to bed late to get
his homework done, when he's been working on it since
he got home from school? (Mind you, this is in a school
system where theoretically, the policy is that he will
do no more than 30 minutes per night of homework--HA!)

Is it
because organized/structured physical activities (and yep, I'm
stressing the 'organized/structured laden with rules' activities,
because I'm all for letting kids run around in the yard and make up
their own rules) somehow addresses another part of their development,
the part that's okay to devote hours to practicing? Grr.

I think it's a matter of balance. Sure, letting
kids run around and play is great. On the other hand, if
my kids have an activity that they want to do, it seems
utterly incredible to me that they should have to cut
out any activities (except maybe something that only
happens on the weekend) because at a mere 8 and 10 years
old, their homework load doesn't permit them to do
anything but school, homework, and dinner on a school
day.

(Sorry -- I'm ranting. Too much exposure in my youth to a school
centered around AAAA football, perhaps. But grrrrr...)

Well, for my kids it's dance and music, not
football, but really, as far as I can tell, if it's
something the kid loves doing, I don't see why it
should be discouraged.

Best wishes,
Ericka

lenny fackler wrote:

I'm not sure what you're imagining here for what a 5 or 6 year old does
for homework. In the case of my kindergartener it's usually a couple
of worksheets where he practices writing a certain letter or number or
some type of picture matching game, etc. I don't consider the
planning, materials, or time involved to be substantial.

But consider what it's like down the road when
you've got a 1st grader, a 3rd grader, and a 5th grader.
Believe me, it's a lot.

I enjoy the
opportunity to see what's he's been learning and to provide a bit of
one on one guidance if necessary.

HA! If you've got multiple kids and they all need
you guiding them through every homework assignment, you
won't have enough time between the time they get home from
school and bedtime to do that. And forget adding instruction
in areas where you feel they need some reinforcement/extension.
You'll be lucky to get done whatever needs to be turned in
the next day if you're "blessed" with one of these school
systems that thinks all this homework is so very valuable
for them.

I look forward to 'years and years'
of giving both of my kids the appropriate level of encouragement and
assistance with their studies.

Enjoy...

Best wishes,
Ericka

bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

the energy to focus after a long day at school). On the
other hand, you're setting yourself up for years and years
of being that involved with homework, which can easily
eat you alive with multiple school-aged children who
each have more and more homework every year. It's not

This I don't agree with. My fifth grader does her homework
completely on her own. She'll show me the completed work
if I ask for it, but otherwise, I may not see it at all. Just
because you give a lot of help in the earlier grades doesn't
mean that you will necessarily keep that level of involvement
as they grow. It may be something that you need to keep
aware of. Do a self-check every now and then to see if
your level of involvement is right. But that's true for
everything. How many people tie their kindergartener's
shoes? And how many tie their fifth grader's shoes? I don't
see why homework would be any different.

Sure, some kids will move on. Others won't,
at least without a struggle. And it's often complicated
when the school keeps ramping up the assignments, such
that they're always expecting parental supervision and
support in order for the child to be successful.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Barbara wrote:
Chookie wrote:

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

SNIP

My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address. They're
not doing calculus, you know. I'd give it 20 to 30 SECONDS each,
making it about 4 minutes.

? What first grader's math homework consists of
nothing more than "1+3" problems?

write sentences using his spelling words,

... assuming 20 words that's probably another 20-30 mins...


Gosh, let's assume 500 words, then its HOURS of homework! I've never
seen a 20 word spelling list yet, and One is in 3d grade.

? Mine have had 20 word spelling lists since first
grade. In 3rd and 5th grade, they now have both spelling
and vocabulary words, with at least a page of exercises
involving each list every night.

read a paragraph and answer a couple of questions about it,

...say another 10 mins...

50-60 mins of "reinforcement" seems to me a bit much for Grade 3-4 (here, that
would be 8-9yos -- I think I was doing about 30 mins at that age), and that's
assuming the child finds these things -- and the writing -- easy. I still
remember sobbing over my 3* and 4* tables in 3rd grade, and other kids were
probably sobbing over the word list at that time (I was a big reader and I
don't remember ever seeing an unfamiliar word on a spelling list).


But you're assuming that the kids get all of the work on the same
night, which isn't the case.

Yeah? It's the case here. In first grade, you could
expect math, spelling, and reading every night, plus any
other special homework/projects/etc.

One is in third grade. In general, his homework is: (1) 4 page
spelling package, given out Monday to be handed in Thursday -- may
include fill in the blank, sentences, or creative writing (I wasn't
really quite sure what to do about One's story about a carjacker this
week!); (2) one or two pages of math -- short word problems, etc.; (3)
read at least 10 minutes in English; (4) science -- once a week, one
week to complete; (5) Hebrew reading; (6) one or two pages of Hebrew
work; and (7) study for English and Hebrew spelling tests. Leaving out
the time that he whines and moans about the fact that he's not allowed
to watch TV until homework is done, and remembering that he has serious
learning disabilities (including word-retrieval difficulties) that make
a lot of this difficult for him, I'd put it at maybe an hour a night.
For a kid without disabilities, a bit less. Now, I do think its a bit
excessive, but that's more because of the dual curriculum than anything
else. At a regular single-curriculum school, cut that in half.

In third grade, DS2 has:

- similar spelling packet to finish by Thursday
- vocabulary unit, also to be finished by Thursday (Wordly Wise,
quite time consuming, especially section E which often takes
well over an hour just on its own for DS2)
- math, a page or two a night
- reading (15 or 30 minutes every night, depending)
- writing (at least 15 minutes per night)
- most weeks there is some science or social studies project
to work on or test to study for, often involving making
something (poster, model, etc.)
- research projects most weeks (look up sources, bring in
information, write a summary, something like that)

In fifth grade, DS1 has significantly more.

I have to believe that if a kid is crying about homework, it means the
child didn't learn it in school,

No, sometimes the child is just begging for some
free time to do something other than schoolwork.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article ,
Nan wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:44:48 -0800, "Circe" wrote:

My kids' report cards since K have had the equivalent of letter grades for
all academic marks: a 4 is Advanced (an A), a 3 is Proficient (a B), 2 is
Basic and 1 is Below Basic. The options of Outstanding, Satisfactory and
Needs Improvement are only available for citizenship/effort scores. Just
because they aren't letters doesn't make them any less "grades". I think
they switch over to the letter grade system in middle school, but they've
been getting them since the beginning.

I have to admit we haven't seen a grade for my dd in K yet, so I'm
unsure how our elementary school does this.

My thinking is that until the letter grades are being given and
actually *count*, then what's the big deal with not enforcing the
homework you disagree with?

Well, for starters, it may be teaching your child that it is perfectly okay
not to do assigned work if your don't agreee with it. I think that could
have some pretty negative consequences when it comes to convincing the child
that *school*work needs to be completed, let alone homework.

Yes, I can see how that would be a possible drawback. However, for
those parents complaining that homework is proven to be useless at
these grade levels, and how it interferes with their family life, it
could be a possible solution.
Until the grade actually means something, I don't get the push to
enforce it.

Nan


Unfortunately, they then get set up to think that it's OK to ignore what
the teachers want them to do.

As far as I'm concerned, for at least some percentage of the kids,
homework in the early elementary grades is a lose/lose proposition. You
can fight over getting it done (accomplishing nothing academically and
making a mess out of your evenings at home, but keeping the teacher
happy) or you can allow your child to NOT do it (making your home life
happier, but having your child be "in trouble" at school with the
teacher -- and setting them up for future problems because they think
it's OK to ignorehomework).
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Nan wrote:
On 10 Nov 2005 09:10:50 -0800, Banty wrote:



My son had to write a weekly composition in 3rd grade. If you think they're all
playing hangman, maybe that's why you don't get why this is a problem.


Okay, now I'm wondering.... when are letter grades being given to the
kids? I never received a letter grade until Jr. High (Middle School),
and I don't think my ds did, either. I recall his "report cards"
having the options of Satisfactory, Unsatisfactory, and Needs
Improvement (although I'm not sure what the difference between
Unsatisfactory and Needs Improvement would be!).

Here, the A/B/C/D/F grades start in 4th grade. Below
that, they use O(utstanding)/G(ood)/S(atisfactory)/N(eeds
Improvement). However, the kids all figure out that
A=O, B=G, C=S, and N=D/F very quickly.

My thinking is that until the letter grades are being given and
actually *count*, then what's the big deal with not enforcing the
homework you disagree with? I always saw the report card as nothing
more than a tool to let me see if there are areas my ds needed help
in, and not much more than that.

Do you have a kid who would actually be willing to
go into school without his homework or get bad grades?
Mine sure as heck don't want to be the kid who comes in
without homework and gets bad grades as a result. It's
not like the only consequences is a grade they can ignore
if they choose. All their peers are turning in the homework.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Mary Ann wrote:

snip

And this is precisely why homework at this age is
such a bad thing.
On the one hand, he's only six and he
probably does need substantial assistance to plan a time
to do homework

Not really. We know when it has to be done by (he currently gets two
weeks to do
it), and we decide when a good time to do it would be.

, get all the resources together,

That's all part of the fun. If my son was very reluctant to do his
homework at this stage I would talk to the teacher.

figure out
what needs to be done, and do it (not to mention finding
the energy to focus after a long day at school).

I think you're imagining that he gets heaps of homework a night. He
really doesn't.

On the
other hand, you're setting yourself up for years and years
of being that involved with homework,

Apsoutely not! He's 6 and part of the point of having homework at this
age is to develop the skills he needs to become an independent learner.
I need to teach him that and homework assigned by the school is a very
good way to do that. It consolidates and applies what he's learnt at
school.

which can easily
eat you alive with multiple school-aged children who
each have more and more homework every year.

I certainly don't envisage this level of involvement as my son gets
older.
He needs to learn to take responsibility for his own time and work load
and I have no doubt that he will learn those skills. What's the
difference between this and learning how to brush his teeth?

It's not
so much fun when you feel like you're in school all over
again. And all for something that hasn't been shown to
provide one jot of benefit.

I am inclined to agree with you, but since I send my son to school I
need to accept the school policies.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Mary Ann