Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

Donna Metler wrote:

That bugs me as well. I'm a music teacher, and while parents complain that
their child doesn't like to practice, and it's a pain to make them do it,
I've never heard anyone say that a child doesn't need to practice music, or
that practicing for the 30 minutes a day we ask of our beginning students is
unreasonable. Parents are constantly pushing to get their children into the
instrumental program even as toddlers and preschoolers. Yet, ask a child to
practice school skills, several years later is too much. Why do parents not
object to being told that their child needs to practice music (and listen to
the home CD) to learn music, but see reading for 20 minutes a night with/to
your child as intrusive?

It's not "reading for 20 minutes" that is intrusive.
It is 34 hours/week of school (in which there is a great deal
of reading, including the ever-popular DEARs), PLUS an hour
or more of homework per night (also involving a lot of reading),
PLUS "reading for 20 minutes." It's great to read when there's
a bit of time to breathe. When you're kids have come home and
largely worked on homework most of the evening that they weren't
eating dinner, throwing reading on top of everything else gets
to be a bit much, especially for children who are struggling
at reading (who are the very ones who would benefit the most
from reading, if they ever got to do it on a relatively
fresh mind).

Best wishes,
Ericka

Mary Ann wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

lenny fackler wrote:


I'm not sure what you're imagining here for what a 5 or 6 year old does
for homework. In the case of my kindergartener it's usually a couple
of worksheets where he practices writing a certain letter or number or
some type of picture matching game, etc. I don't consider the
planning, materials, or time involved to be substantial.

But consider what it's like down the road when
you've got a 1st grader, a 3rd grader, and a 5th grader.
Believe me, it's a lot.


Are you in the US

Yes.

and is your experience typical of US school?

There really *isn't* any "typical" US school, but
there is a trend towards more homework. Our school isn't
as bad as some, but worse than others in that regard
(and it varies by teacher and by grade).

In your shoes I could imagine that 1st grader not getting much
homework, but needed quite a bit of guidance, the 3rd grader getting a
little more, but needing less guidance and the 5th grader needing
little or no guidance. If you're finding that you're spending all
evening helping all three of them with little time for anything else
then I think your school homework policy need revising. I would
certainly not be happy with that at all.

Of course I think it needs revising, but I'm
swimming upstream. For every one of me, there are
half a dozen parents who think the kids need *more*
homework (more homework = better/more prestigious
school, dontcha know).

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Caledonia
says...


Banty wrote:
In article .com,
Caledonia
says...


Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Beth Kevles wrote:

The other useful homework is 20 minutes/day of free reading. DO
help
your child on this one if your child needs help. Otherwise, just
keep
an eye on what your child likes to read. (It makes gift times so
much
easier if you know what they've already read!)

Yet another unintended consequence of too much
homework in the early grades. Kids don't read for
pleasure when they've had a full day of school followed
by wrestling through lots of homework. For many kids,
their mental energy is *gone* by that time.

Hmmm...Given that their mental energy is *gone*, though, does this
also
mean that having kids then take dancing/karate/soccer practice/cub
scouts after school is also not a good idea? All of these require some
mental focus, too.

But these things are quite different and really don't call on the same
kind of
focus. They're a big change of pace from the schooling activities.

Too true -- and I was bringing these up in a devil's advocate fashion.

It seems to me (IRL) that having little kids participate in an
organized/structured physical activity (versus just walking, playing
kick the can, playing on the monkey bars, etc.) is socially lauded --
even with the attendant practices that these activities require. (For
the first grade soccer league in town, it's 2 weekly practices of 45
minutes each plus 1weekly game lasting ~ 1 hour.) Yet suggest 90
minutes of homework per week, and some people think that the school
system has gone too far....

I mean, for pete's sake, the whole point of practicing soccer is to
improve (ditto piano, dance, karate) -- so why is it so crazy to have
kids also practice some of what they've covered in school? Is it
because organized/structured physical activities (and yep, I'm
stressing the 'organized/structured laden with rules' activities,
because I'm all for letting kids run around in the yard and make up
their own rules) somehow addresses another part of their development,
the part that's okay to devote hours to practicing? Grr.

Simply because, in a phrase, they've already spent HOURS doing it IN
SCHOOL!


But they haven't. NOt in a good program, anyway. There really isn't all that
much time spent just reading, for example, within a school day. There
certainly isn't the sort of activity which equates to selecting a chapter
book with your child and reading it over a period of time, discussing it as
you do it. There's not all that much time spent on the sort of practice
which makes permanent in math either. Most math instruction is more of the
hands-on type.

In article ,
"Donna Metler" wrote:

That bugs me as well. I'm a music teacher, and while parents complain that
their child doesn't like to practice, and it's a pain to make them do it,
I've never heard anyone say that a child doesn't need to practice music, or
that practicing for the 30 minutes a day we ask of our beginning students is
unreasonable. Parents are constantly pushing to get their children into the
instrumental program even as toddlers and preschoolers. Yet, ask a child to
practice school skills, several years later is too much. Why do parents not
object to being told that their child needs to practice music (and listen to
the home CD) to learn music, but see reading for 20 minutes a night with/to
your child as intrusive?

Part of the difference is that there is no evidence that homework in the
early grades DOES do anything to improve learning.

With music, it's different -- though, frankly, if they had a 1/2 hour
lesson five days a week, you'd probably expect MUCH less time on outside
practice! In fact, they usually only see the music instructor once a
week, so they HAVE to spend more time in outside practice.

I see much to be gained from outside reading, provided it really IS
outside -- that is, not assigned material, and no school requirement
attached (no reports, etc.) My kids DID read, and still do.

But as long as there is no evidence that homework in the early grades
has any positive benefit, I will continue to oppose it, and to maintain
that it ought not be required.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Donna Metler wrote:

That bugs me as well. I'm a music teacher, and while parents complain that
their child doesn't like to practice, and it's a pain to make them do it,
I've never heard anyone say that a child doesn't need to practice music, or
that practicing for the 30 minutes a day we ask of our beginning students is
unreasonable. Parents are constantly pushing to get their children into the
instrumental program even as toddlers and preschoolers. Yet, ask a child to
practice school skills, several years later is too much. Why do parents not
object to being told that their child needs to practice music (and listen to
the home CD) to learn music, but see reading for 20 minutes a night with/to
your child as intrusive?

It's not "reading for 20 minutes" that is intrusive.
It is 34 hours/week of school (in which there is a great deal
of reading, including the ever-popular DEARs), PLUS an hour
or more of homework per night (also involving a lot of reading),
PLUS "reading for 20 minutes." It's great to read when there's
a bit of time to breathe. When you're kids have come home and
largely worked on homework most of the evening that they weren't
eating dinner, throwing reading on top of everything else gets
to be a bit much, especially for children who are struggling
at reading (who are the very ones who would benefit the most
from reading, if they ever got to do it on a relatively
fresh mind).

I'm not quite sure how we got from *an hour or more of homework* to
*most of the evening* In another post, you mention that your child
only has time for homework and dinner most nights. I admit that I am
completely floored by that. FOUR AND A HALF HOURS of homework EACH
NIGHT! (I use my child for that figure. He gets home at about 3:45.
I'd say 1/2 an hour for dinner -- although heaven knows he never stays
at the table that long, and another 15 minutes for a shower. 9 pm
bedtime. That leaves about 4-1/2 hours.) Heavens! No wonder you're
complaining! I'd be complaining as well. That's completely
unreasonable! But I'll be sure to mention it to One next time he
complains about the amount of homework he gets!

I just don't see how stating that FOUR AND A HALF HOURS of homework is
unreasonable means that there is no value to a reasonable amount of
homework. Properly given, it reinforces what the kids learn. (I know,
you think that should be done at school. So, what do you *take away*
from the curriculum to do that? Or do you add time to the school day?)
It allows kids to explore and do work that isn't easily done at
school. It helps teach them *how* to study. It gives parents input on
their progress. Yes, yes. you claim that homework hasn't been
*proven* to help one whit, but no one has cited the studies or
explained the methodology to me, particularly how the control group is
set up given the almost infinite number of variables (how much
homework, what type of homework).

I also don't agree that getting kids in the habit of reading on a
regular basis for pleasure is a bad idea. Of course there was DEAR in
1st and 2d grade, but I don't think they do that in 3d. But that is
what, a few minutes after recess? Reading is done as part of the
bedtime ritual for One, by the way. He gets to choose what he reads --
and it may be anything from a comic book to Sports Illustrated for Kids
to a book that it wouldn't be socially acceptable for him to pull out
at school (*too girly*) to *the book that everyone is reading* Some
nights, he reads to me; other nights, we each read our own books.

But, again, if your first or third grader is, as you state, spending
FOUR AND A HALF HOURS on homework a night, I do urge you to complain
about it.

Barbara

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:53:55 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:17:53 GMT, Nan wrote:



Yes, I can see how that would be a possible drawback. However, for
those parents complaining that homework is proven to be useless at
these grade levels, and how it interferes with their family life, it
could be a possible solution.
Until the grade actually means something, I don't get the push to
enforce it.

Nan

Too me t hat's inconsistent and confusion.

So just because its worth a grade instead of basic learning, the kid
doesnt have to do the work???

And how do you explain to the child why the homework is "important"
this year and it wasn't last year?

I am not a big believer in homework at the younger grades but I am a
big believer in consisten attitudes from parents and a big
non-believer in total concentration on grades.

Okay, I see a lot of good points for enforcing homework... so then,
why is everyone complaining about how useless it is?

Nan

Donna Metler wrote:
"Caledonia" wrote in message
oups.com...
I mean, for pete's sake, the whole point of practicing soccer is to
improve (ditto piano, dance, karate) -- so why is it so crazy to have
kids also practice some of what they've covered in school?

That bugs me as well. I'm a music teacher, and while parents complain that
their child doesn't like to practice, and it's a pain to make them do it,
I've never heard anyone say that a child doesn't need to practice music, or
that practicing for the 30 minutes a day we ask of our beginning students is
unreasonable. Parents are constantly pushing to get their children into the
instrumental program even as toddlers and preschoolers. Yet, ask a child to
practice school skills, several years later is too much. Why do parents not
object to being told that their child needs to practice music (and listen to
the home CD) to learn music, but see reading for 20 minutes a night with/to
your child as intrusive?

Well, first, as a music teacher you probably already know you're
comparing apples and oranges.

A big component of learning to play an instrument, or kick a ball, or
throw a ball, or any other athletic activity is muscle memory. (Yes,
you heard me call playing an instrument an athletic activity. As my
Guitar Method professor used to say, "Musicians are athletes using fine
motor control skills rather than gross motor control skills.) There's
no way other than practicing to get the muscle memory. And not just the
fingers, but the muscles of the lips, the tongue, and breath control is
all involved. It's a lot of muscles. The only activity in the
"normal" academic range that involves this is handwriting practice.

Now, if we're talking math, we there are two components involved.
Learning the process -- how to add, subtract, multiply, divide or
whatever. And then there's the process of learning a certain amount of
facts so they become instant recall. Skip-counting, single-digit number
sentences, etc, which is largely a memorization task.

As a homeschooler, I know exactly how my kids' Saxon math curriculum
works. (And I've been told the public school one works the same way.)
You have some discussion of progressive knowledge (learning how to use a
calendar, for example.) You have some logic problems, some practice
with skip-counting and patterns and some other things. Then you have
new learning. Then you have the application where you review what you
learned prior to th is lesson and also what you learned this lesson.
Every component is gone over -in- -the- -lesson-. Some practice is
necessary to see if every child grasped it, of course, but not
necessarily at home. (Although, the Saxon program is also designed for
doing with A and B worksheets. A to be done in class, B presumably for
homework if it's necessary. Mostly we skip doing the B side ourselves,
except when my nephew, who had memory retention problems, lived with us.
Then we'd do A right after the lesson, and B right before the
following day's lesson.)

Michelle
Flutist

Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Chookie wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:
SNIP
My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address.

HOW! More drill, standing there with a whip? What what?
(Snip more of the same)

Ah, I see your point. Helping a struggling child is abusive. When you
sit down with a child who is having difficulty with a subject, and try
to explain it to him, it's as if you're abusing him. Sitting down and
explaining things to him? No, you can't do that -- its like you're
standing over him with a whip. Playing reinforcing math games with
him? Child abuse. Talking to the teacher about the problem? Drilling
him on memory facts? Abuse, abuse, abuse. We, as parents, are
obligated to sit back. The school will take care of the problem. Or
not. Who knows? But its not OUR role as parents to recognize when our
kids are struggling and to get them help.

Glad to hear that works for you. When my kid struggles, I get him help.
Frankly, I think that walking away from a struggling child is worse
than whipping him. And for the record, I've never hit my kid, and am
categorically opposed to doing so.

Barbara

Let me make myself clear:

I think that in kindy, homework is silly. Just do the 20 minutes of
reading, which in most cases is snuggling together at bedtime with
parent reading to child. As the child approaches independent reading,
have child do an increasing amount of the reading while parent does less
and less, but still snuggling. Eventually, child reads independently,
but by free reading I really mean FREE reading. Anything from See Spot
Run, to Captain Underpants, to the Hobbit and beyond.

My two cents, worth only what you paid,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:

Banty wrote:
In article . com, Barbara
says...

Chookie wrote:
In article .com,
"Barbara" wrote:
SNIP
My feeling is that kids need to practice what they've learned. I just
don't think it's unreasonable to ask a kid to do ten math problems,

@ 2 mins ea that's 20 mins....

If it is taking your first grader 2 minutes to answer 1+3, then its
signaling you that there's a problem that you need to address.

HOW! More drill, standing there with a whip? What what?
(Snip more of the same)

Ah, I see your point. Helping a struggling child is abusive. When you
sit down with a child who is having difficulty with a subject, and try
to explain it to him, it's as if you're abusing him. Sitting down and
explaining things to him? No, you can't do that -- its like you're
standing over him with a whip. Playing reinforcing math games with
him? Child abuse. Talking to the teacher about the problem? Drilling
him on memory facts? Abuse, abuse, abuse. We, as parents, are
obligated to sit back. The school will take care of the problem. Or
not. Who knows? But its not OUR role as parents to recognize when our
kids are struggling and to get them help.

Glad to hear that works for you. When my kid struggles, I get him help.
Frankly, I think that walking away from a struggling child is worse
than whipping him. And for the record, I've never hit my kid, and am
categorically opposed to doing so.

Barbara


And how do you handle it if your child is NOT struggleing with the
material -- but rather with the focus or desire or discipline to put her
butt in a chair and get the (repetitive and often pointless) work done?

If the problem is NOT the ability to do the work, but the desire to be
doing something else?

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care