Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Caledonia" wrote:

LOL -- I have no idea what casting out nines is! Might explain my
arithmetic,
I suppose...

Me either, so I looked it up:
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55926.html

I've never heard of it, but I think it's cool.

There are so many things that are wrong with this whole
senario-obviously. The expectations for kids these days are extreme-it
only hurts the child. There is a great article in a recent TIME about
pushing kids too soon. We're going to see more and more anxiety and
mental problems than ever before.

We need to problem solve to find the answer. Our world only likes the
"quick fix," which always (and I think usually) is not the answer or at
least the right one.


Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14590058/

Pediatricians report increasing requests for 'academic doping'
By Victoria Clayton
MSNBC contributor

Updated: 10:16 a.m. CT Sept 7, 2006

A 15-year-old girl and her parents recently came in for a chat with Dr.
James Perrin, a Boston pediatrician, because they were concerned about
the girl's grades. Previously an A student, she was slipping to B's,
and the family was convinced attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
was at fault - and that a prescription for Ritalin would boost her
brainpower.

After examining the girl, Perrin determined she didn't have ADHD. The
parents, who had come in demanding a prescription, left empty-handed.

Perrin, a professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School and
spokesperson for the American Academy of Pediatrics, and other
physicians say this is an increasingly common scenario in doctors'
offices around the country, though there are no hard statistics on it.

Parents want their kids to excel in school, and they've heard about the
illegal use of stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall for "academic
doping." Hoping to obtain the drugs legally, they pressure
pediatricians for them. Some even request the drugs after openly
admitting they don't believe their child has ADHD.

"I spoke with [some] colleagues the other day and they mentioned
three cases recently where parents blatantly asked for the medication
so that their children would perform better in school, yet there were
no other indications that the child had ADHD," says Dr. Nick Yates, a
pediatrician and director of medical ethics for Mercy Hospital in
Buffalo, N.Y.

"I'm very concerned that there's a fair amount - and we don't
know how much - [of ADHD drugs] being prescribed and used for
off-label purposes," says Yates.

Academic doping - using these stimulant prescriptions in an effort to
enhance focus, concentration and mental stamina - first started on
college campuses, especially Ivy League and exclusive, competitive
schools. Now, the problem is filtering down to secondary schools, Yates
says, and more parents are playing a role in obtaining prescription
ADHD medication for their teenagers.

Yates isn't entirely surprised that parents ask for it. He believes
that most families simply have a heartfelt - if shockingly
misdirected - desire for their children to do their best.

Parents can be overly eager to blame poor grades on a medical condition
rather than looking for other explanations, says Dr. Michael Rater,
medical director of the Adolescent and Residential Treatment Program at
McLean Hospital in Belmont, Mass. "It's usually that parents are
just trying to understand their children's struggles in a narrative
that makes sense to them," he says.

Yet some parents will do whatever it takes to keep opportunities from
slipping through a child's fingers - even outright lying to doctors
to get the drugs, says Rater.

And some pill-eager parents aren't just seeking to level the playing
field, they're trying to make their kids superstars, says Dr. Martin
Stein, a professor of clinical pediatrics at University of California,
San Diego.

"I see patients who come from privileged backgrounds and lower-level
economic backgrounds and there's a tremendous difference in parental
expectations," Stein says.

Privileged kids tend to have parents who will push them to be the
academic cream of the crop and when they aren't, they'll start
looking for reasons why, he says. "I tell them that honor roll, a
merit scholarship or acceptance in an Ivy League school is not the end
point. That would be poor medicine."

Safety issues

The concerns with academic doping aren't just ethical.

"The medications in general have a long safety record for people who
need them but when you use a drug for off-label purposes, there are
additional safety concerns," says Yates.

Although doctors generally agree that side effects from the medications
are minimal for most kids, there is an extensive, and sometimes
frightening, list of possibilities.

Commonly reported side effects include difficulty sleeping, loss of
appetite, irritability, stomachaches, headaches, blurry vision, nausea,
dizziness, drowsiness and tics and tremors. There have been concerns
that ADHD medication temporarily delays growth, and one study found
that up to 5 percent of children experience tactile hallucinations,
often involving a sensation that bugs or snakes are crawling on their
bodies. The FDA recently announced that certain ADHD drugs should
caution users about the risks of serious heart problems and psychotic
behavior.

A 2004 rat study conducted by the National Institutes of Health and
McLean Hospital/Harvard Medical School suggested that children who take
prescription drugs for ADHD but do not have the disorder may be at
higher risk for developing depressive symptoms in adulthood. The study
was particularly looking at the issue of misdiagnosis but it raises
obvious concerns for the future of young people who are electing to
take the medicine for no other reason than to do well in school.

In addition, Yates says that possible dependency issues, either
psychological or physical, could occur when the drugs are being
misused. It's widely acknowledged that some kids abuse the drugs to
get high. The pills are often crushed and snorted or even injected.

Searching out other explanations

While ADHD drugs aren't a quick fix for a lackluster report card, Stein
says that poor academic performance is cause for investigation -
sometimes for ADHD but also for a host of other problems. "If it was
brought to my attention that someone's grades were going down even to
B's I would start looking at the whole picture," he says.

Stein says there are a variety of learning disabilities and myriad
situations that are not medical but still may have an impact on a
child's academic performance.

"It could also be something situational like a divorce or a
relationship with another person this kid is having," he says. "It
could be that a parent has lost a job and there's financial stress in
the family."

Depression, anxiety and other mental disorders might also be at work.

"ADHD is only one of the possibilities, and I make a point to put
that at the end," says Stein.

Perrin says he's particularly skeptical when he's treated a patient
for many years and attention problems are only brought up once the
child reaches high school. The 15-year-old girl in question, for
example, had been his patient for more than a decade. He concluded that
she was just a normal teen experiencing the distractions - sports,
boys, friends - that teens experience.

He said that even if he had ultimately determined that the girl had
ADHD, medication would not have been a speedy remedy. "True ADHD is
not something that is dealt with quickly," he says.

Scrupulous doctors, Perrin says, will take numerous office visits and
much investigation before diagnosing the problem. And, if ADHD is
diagnosed, they will not just prescribe medication. They'll also
prescribe behavioral therapy (sometimes for the entire family) and
recommend fairly significant changes in the child's home and learning
environment.

Furthermore, doctors warn that if a kid doesn't have ADHD, the
benefit from taking the drugs is unpredictable and, despite the lore,
most likely extremely modest. Parents of unmotivated kids may be
particularly disappointed.

"One of the biggest problems in adolescent mental health is
motivation," says Rater. "And this medication doesn't effect
motivation. If a kid is not all that motivated, it's really not going
to help."

---
Victoria Clayton is a freelance writer based in California and
co-author of "Fearless Pregnancy: Wisdom and Reassurance from a Doctor,
a Midwife and a Mom," published by Fair Winds Press.

In article ,
nimue wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
In article ,
nimue wrote:
toypup wrote:
wrote in message
erio.net...
"toypup" wrote:
"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
nimue wrote:

....................


My father could clearly speak Russian after he had been
in the US for decades, and not used it in that time.
My mother could do the same with Polish, which was not
here first language, but second, and could manage in
Russian, third. My parents never used any language
other than English with us, deliberately, and made us
quite aware that their English was not good English.
At that time, schools still taught correct English.

Really? And what do we teach now?

I have seen hundreds of complaints by others that there
is no attempt at any sort of correct English. From my
contacts with American students at Purdue, they have no
idea that whatever they learned on the streets might not
be good English.




--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In article ,
toypup wrote:

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
nimue wrote:
biography of Marie Antoinette. I can give tons of other anecdotal
evidence.
All Herman has is his own example, and no proof.

I doubt that I would have been able to speak any of the
languages I learned any better at the end of the course
than I could decades later, or at least not much better.

My father could clearly speak Russian after he had been
in the US for decades, and not used it in that time.
My mother could do the same with Polish, which was not
here first language, but second, and could manage in
Russian, third. My parents never used any language
other than English with us, deliberately, and made us
quite aware that their English was not good English.
At that time, schools still taught correct English.

Still, your family is very bright. Citing them as examples is just as good
as citing yourself, as you all have the same genetic make-up. You have to
cite ordinary people, not geniuses, in order to make them out as examples of
how the general population learns and retains.

I have taught large numbers of "ordinary people". It has
been made clear to me by others that they do not learn as
I do, but the evidence is that they retain concepts IF
LEARNED and not facts. Also, they have more difficulty
if learning the supposedly "simpler" stuff first, and then
generalizing. I have much less difficulty with it, but
still some. In any case, it is less efficient.

If people forget THAT fast, have they learned it? One time
when I was teaching a calculus-level probability course for
those who had not taken the foundational courses, taken now
by few, there were 21 prospective candidates for teaching
mathematics in high school taking the course. Of these, only
5 could formulate probability problems using calculus similar
to the ones assigned for homework, and gone over in detail
in discussing the homework. These were undergraduates, and
had the full two years of calculus.

If something is really learned, it is not easily forgotten.
If something is memorized for a test, it is.


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
toypup wrote:

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
nimue wrote:
biography of Marie Antoinette. I can give tons of other anecdotal
evidence.
All Herman has is his own example, and no proof.

I doubt that I would have been able to speak any of the
languages I learned any better at the end of the course
than I could decades later, or at least not much better.

My father could clearly speak Russian after he had been
in the US for decades, and not used it in that time.
My mother could do the same with Polish, which was not
here first language, but second, and could manage in
Russian, third. My parents never used any language
other than English with us, deliberately, and made us
quite aware that their English was not good English.
At that time, schools still taught correct English.

Still, your family is very bright. Citing them as examples is just as
good
as citing yourself, as you all have the same genetic make-up. You have
to
cite ordinary people, not geniuses, in order to make them out as examples
of
how the general population learns and retains.

I have taught large numbers of "ordinary people". It has
been made clear to me by others that they do not learn as
I do, but the evidence is that they retain concepts IF
LEARNED and not facts. Also, they have more difficulty
if learning the supposedly "simpler" stuff first, and then
generalizing. I have much less difficulty with it, but
still some. In any case, it is less efficient.

Herman, if you've spent your career in the University system, you've not
taught "ordinary people". You've taught students who were at minimum at or
above the norm, and who probably averaged at least one standard deviation
above the norm, if not more. Purdue does not have the intelligence band that
even a community college would have, and a community college doesn't have
the band that a high school would have. I suspect most of your students,
yes, even those non-math oriented education majors, would meet the
qualifications for "gifted".

It is very easy, when dealing only with the above average, to make
assumptions which simply don't hold for the average and below average. There
are as many students with IQs 85 and below as 115 and above, and like it or
not, the US educational system is charged with educating the below average
as well as above average students.

Furthermore, due to NCLB, only a small percentage are allowed any variation
from the normal requirements, so that IQ 85 student is expected to master
the same curriculum as an IQ 115+ student.

In article .net,
wrote:
(Herman Rubin) wrote:
In article .net,
wrote:

...............

If a course is manipulative rather than conceptual, this is
likely to happen. I have not used any differential geometry
or algebraic geometry for more than half a century, but I
doubt that I would have much trouble teaching a course in it.
Algebraic geometry would be the harder one, as it has developed
more, but the ideas are still there.

You are a professor in a mathematical discipline, and thus have
regular involvement in mathematical discourse, although you may not do
work in specific branches of mathematics. I haven't needed to use any
linear algebra in over a decade. It did not come up in the context of
my job or anything else I was required to do.

The mathematical discourse I use is totally separate from
those fields.

The ideas in the linear algebra class were conceptual, but it was not
a class for pure math majors; it was designed for engineering majors.
We did however prove some theorems.

No, this does nor make it conceptual. Basic group theory
and some ring theory is necessary for that.

Having linear algebra before abstract algebra, as is now
almost required, also makes it more difficult. My formal
linear algebra was a few weeks in an abstract algebra
course, and it was clear to me that more was needed, so I
studied it. Multivariate statistics is one of the fields
I have published about, and as I tell students, one must
"speak matrix".

I knew some things about abstract algebra from HS, although we didn't
prove nearly as many theorems as we would in the algebra class I took
as an undergrad (mostly designed for CS majors, although offered by
the math department). Later, I took an algebra class offered by the
math department of my grad school that was part of a three quarter
series using Herstein, I think. Again, through lack of use, I don't
remember much. I remember understanding some of the proofs regarding
Galois groups and field extensions, but since I haven't had to use any
of it, I have to look at the textbook and my notes for assistance.

To get the concepts, neither the manipulations, nor most of
the proofs, help too much before; they might help after.

Both cases are (IMO) the result of a lack of practice, not a lack of
understanding or poor teaching.

If one has understanding of the basics, that is not lost.
An approach through details does get lost.

How good are you at speaking and understanding languages that you
haven't used regularly for years? You've said you are slower; well,
that is part of what we are arguing here. There is a dropoff in
skills due to lack of use.

I suspect that it would take me one to two months to speak
French or Spanish well, and twice as long for German. I have
forgotten some of the details of German grammar. I might
even be able to handle Hebrew in three to four months, although
my present vocabulary is weak, and I have considerable problems
with transliterated spoken Hebrew because of its grammatical
structure. Arabic is similar to Hebrew, but more complicated,
and all I know of it is its relation to Hebrew.

Gould's book, _Russian for the Mathematician_, proceeds from
the grammatical structure, which is much more complicated than
any other Indo-European language I have ever studied, and claims
that international words plus 40 roots are sufficient. I think
that number is low, but 100 certainly would suffice.

--gregbo
gds at best dot com


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In article ,
Tori M wrote:

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Tori M" wrote:

the boy who was brilliant
in algebra, but had problems with logic and thought he knew better
than the teacher when it came to his proofs who failed the class and
ended up taking a dumbed down geometry without proofs for graduation.

I've found this thread quite interesting, but I do wonder how a person
with apoor grasp of logic could be "brilliant" at algebra.

I find there to be nothing logical about Algebra :P

That indicates to me that you were poorly taught. Where did you get lost?

Ok I can set up a basic 3+x=23 equation.. I can even solve the
(3x+4y)(3x+5y) I think thats how it goes any I can solve it.. lol. I
understood up to the same point in every algebra class and then after that I
was lost. It took my class a monthor 2 to grasp the 3x+4y=x*27 and it took
a bit longer and a tutor for me to get it. Luckily for me we have several
family members and church members qued to teach higher math to the kids. I
did verry well in math until Algebra and I just couldnt get it. The same
year I could not grasp science because it was a math heavy science year.

Tori

If you had been taught that variables were purely linguistic,
and used them as language early, "setting up" equations or
systems of equations would be straightforward. Learning to
do manipulations does not teach this; the basic rule for
solution is the law of equality, not just for numbers; if
two entities are equal, the same operation done on them yields
equal answers. But be sure it is an operation.


--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In article ,
bizby40 wrote:

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Caledonia" wrote:

................

LOL -- I have no idea what casting out nines is! Might explain my
arithmetic,
I suppose...

Me either, so I looked it up:
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55926.html

Interesting, but it seems to be a way of checking your answer rather
than getting the answer in the first place. Kind of a party trick in
a way.

No, casting out nines, and likewise elevens, is a means
of checking answers where the arithmetic can be difficult.

One rarely uses check procedures now, but in the days BC
(before computers) it was common to have them for those
computations which had any complexity. I supervised
clerks using desk calculators, and I often had to find
where they went wrong when things did not check.

While I am quite good and fast at arithmetic, quite a
few mathematicians are not. My late wife, who was also
a professor of mathematics, asked me often to find her
mistakes when things did not check.

And my arithmetic is just fine, thank you! :-)

Bizby




--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

nimue wrote:
Penny Gaines wrote:

nimue wrote:

Penny Gaines wrote:

nimue wrote:

[snip]

Well, since the Jews had been expelled from England in 1290, it's
unlikely that Shakespeare was a Jew, secret or otherwise. There
really is nothing in anything we know about him to indicate that he
was Jewish. However, this has nothing to do with your ridiculous
arguments against the teaching of literature and writing.

You're assuming that
a) no Jews went back into England in the two and a half centuries
between their expulsion and Shakespeare's birth

Why do you think I assume that? Nothing, absolutely nothing, I wrote
indicates that in any way, shape, or form.

and
b) Shakespeare never travelled abroad, or met anyone who had, even
when he lived in London.

I have no idea why you think that anything I wrote indicates that
Shakespeare never travelled abroad or met anyone who had. Where on
earth do you get that from what I wrote?

Quoting what you wrote:
"Well, since the Jews had been expelled from England in 1290, it's
unlikely that Shakespeare was a Jew, secret or otherwise."

Maybe there is some sentance structure in American English that
gives that sentance a different meaning to British English - which
wouldn't be the first difference.

I believe sentence is spelled sentence in both American and British
English.

Touche :-).

Now, look at the word "unlikely." It is unlikely that Shakespeare
was a Jew. I didn't say impossible. I didn't say anything about Jews
sneaking back into England. I just said it was unlikely that Shakespeare
was Jewish. The fact that the Jews had been expelled strengthens that
belief (as do many other things), but I never discussed Jews sneaking back
into England or anything else you think I did.

I was looking at the *whole* sentence, not just one clause. I'm not
arguing that Shakespeare was a Jew, I'm just pointing out that
in British English your conclusion does not follow from your
premise.

One could replace "since" with "because" without changing the
meaning (in British English), and your sentence becomes

"Well, because the Jews had been expelled from England in 1290, it's
unlikely that Shakespeare was a Jew, secret or otherwise."

Now, can you address this below?

You're assuming that
b) Shakespeare never travelled abroad, or met anyone who had, even
when he lived in London.

Again, how on earth did you get that from what I wrote? How? How? I never
mentioned his travels or his friends. How did you get that?

You didn't say anything about his travels: but then people often
don't mention their assumptions.

Could you explain what you meant?

Could you? My statement is pretty clear. It's unlikely Shakespeare was a
Jew. There are many reasons to believe this, not the least of which is that
the Jewish population had been expelled in 1290.

However that was the *only* reason you gave, and your sentence implied
that the *only* evidence was the expulsion in 1290. Had the expulsion
been in 1590, then you could use it as strong evidence, but it wasn't.

It's pretty well known
that Queen Elizabeth's Portugese physician, Dr. Roderigo Lopez, was a Jew or
a converso, so there were Jews (and the doctor met with a nasty fate) before
Cromwell welcomed them back. However, that in no way proves that
Shakespeare was a Jew OR that I said ANYTHING about Jews returning to
England, or Shakespeare's travels abroad (he probably didn't), or the
travels abroad of his friends. You need to focus on what you read and stop
assuming that people are saying things they aren't.

I can't see how you reach the conclusion that I am not focussing on
what I read, or misreading what you wrote. Your conclusion made
some assumptions, and I pointed these assumptions out.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

Rosalie B. wrote:
Penny Gaines wrote:


nimue wrote:

Penny Gaines wrote:


nimue wrote:

[snip]

Well, since the Jews had been expelled from England in 1290, it's
unlikely that Shakespeare was a Jew, secret or otherwise. There
really is nothing in anything we know about him to indicate that he
was Jewish. However, this has nothing to do with your ridiculous
arguments against the teaching of literature and writing.

You're assuming that
a) no Jews went back into England in the two and a half centuries
between their expulsion and Shakespeare's birth

Why do you think I assume that? Nothing, absolutely nothing, I wrote
indicates that in any way, shape, or form.


and
b) Shakespeare never travelled abroad, or met anyone who had, even
when he lived in London.

[snip]

But I don't understand what the second assumption about meeting
someone who had traveled abroad would have to do with it. Obviously
Shakespeare knew something about Jews or he would not have been able
to write about them.

The person who had travelled abroad might have been converted, and
on his return to England converted Shakespeare.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three