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#11
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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
Again replying to my own post to address beccafromlalaland's accusation
that I only asked questions, and avoided her questions and didn't answer 'any' of them. As in: "I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions. Dodging? -- beccafromlalaland " 0:- wrote: beccafromlalaland wrote: Why for instance in America are parenting classes only available to parents after the fact. There is no such limit. Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental health departments, some schools, private instructors are all available. [[ While you forgot the question mark and I could have passed over this I presumed a question from the grammar and answered. Is this one of the 'any' I'm supposed to not have answered? I elaborated in fact. ]] In fact, you can even find on-line classes. http://tinyurl.com/dastb After they have been investigated for child abuse, after their children have been placed in foster care when the parents are either desperate to get their kids, or so angry that they refuse to attend parenting workshops. How would you get them to go to parenting classes until they were compelled to? [[ Again your comment, and my response, that is in fact an answer within a question. You are asking me to get them to classes they don't wan tot go to by posing the obvious. YOu compell them by law. People assigned to traffic school can be as angry as they want, but they stand to pay a hefty fine and even lose their driving priveleges if they do not attend. ]] The classes are everywhere. They are even free in some places. http://tinyurl.com/7fzqp I know in my state parenting classes are available but certainly not encouraged for at risk parents (young parents,families on assistance, single parents, parents who grew up in abusive households) [[ I find it odd that you chopped the above comment by you from later posts .. then shortly thereafter asked me if I was "dodging." ]] How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not publicized enough? [[ When you quoted by attribution later, these clarifying questions of mine were left lonely and dangling without your previous comment for the obvious understanding that I wanted to know something relevant to your statement. ]] I think before we can even consider a non-spanking law we need to address the issues of these at risk parents, get them into parenting classes, give them mentors, teach them appropriate discipline strategies. Give them a support network so when they feel overwhelmed with the responsibilities of parenthood they can get help BEFORE there is a problem. Two problems, I think. [[ Again, how am I dodging if you pose a solution and I discuss the issues and difficulties from the real world, as I do below? ]] One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed "early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the Constitution. One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child protection statutes. Thus we come around again to the law. Two, money. Who will provide this support network? Churches, local interest groups, even the local health department schedules a variety of things to get young parents involved, especially new mothers, even providing child care during the meetings. The problem is that the families that are targetted for this help can refuse to respond, or simply not be interested, and that is certainly their right. I do not support compelled services unless the level of problem has reached a proportion that has involved child protection services by the state. And while at one time such programs could access hospital records for new births, and visit the new mothers directly, they are now proscribed from doing so by HIPAA. Any PR or marketing of the programs have to be addressed into to already crowded media advertising world. This is precisely why I support a law addressing the actual behavior. There is nothing; poverty, large families, single parenting that MAKES a parent spank a child. A law will address the issue directly. It will mean nothing to those that already do these things for their children. They won't be effected. They already actively seek alternatives to CP. Collect and study information about child development. Provide themselves with strees reducing activities and strategies for when parenting overwhelms them. In the law, I'll insist on having these issues addressed. There must be public funding support for programs mandated to help those charged and convicted of spanking. If not, there's little point in the law, though these things in the past have tended to sort themselves out. I imagine when women's sufferage was finally a fact there was some support for teaching women the political processes they were about to engage in. There was supposed to be help for freed slaves, but that didn't go as well. The law banning spanking would work for all concerned. The parent convicted of spanking could then DEMAND state support for them to rehabilitate. At least some reimbursement, some child care, some training monies. I'd be happy with that. These problems you have mentioned are ones that have been addressed before at great length by society. They have done pretty much all they can do, sans constitutional violations, at this point. Now it's time to move forward with a law. [[ You accused me of dodging. Where? This elaborate and informational commentary of mine was 'dodging?' Please explain. ]] -- beccafromlalaland Kane PS, Embry and Malfetti found that there was a change from baseline counted street entries from 9.7 per hour by children, to, after the program, 0.7 entries per hour. What was also remarkable was that the rate of "safe play" praise by parents also shot up after they had been trained. In fact, 33 times more such incidents after the program than before at measuring for the baseline. Even children having a very low baseline street entry rate, dropped considerably after the training was in place. 1.8 entries per hour, as opposed to 0.2 per hour with the program in place. Only 10% of the baseline rate. Pretty remarkable when one considers that parents who spanked before had children that attemped entries at the highest rate of all per hour. K~ [[ In fact, becca, I gave some information above that you pointedly ignored. As you said you would. I could accuse you of dodging, but I have not, only offerred the information and encouraged your commenting or discussion. Who's dodging here? ]] Kane -- Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be, the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very alien he doth appear? Kane 2006 |
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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
This is the last in the series of my own posts that I examine to see if
in fact beccafromlalaland by asking me the following is accurate: "I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions. Dodging? -- beccafromlalaland " [[ Sadly it's so chopped with removal of some commentary by becca that indeed in parts it does appear as though I had asked questions...but she cut her OWN portions at times...leaving my question dangling as though it was out of thin air rather than relevant and congruent with the progression of the discussion. ]] 0:- wrote: beccafromlalaland wrote: 0:- Wrote: There is no such limit. Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental health departments, some schools, private instructors are all available. In fact, you can even find on-line classes. In my area no one talks about parenting classes until it's too late. [[ I certainly don't have an answer for that...since I don't know why that condition exists in her area, and much less so in mine. ]] Who is responsible for that? [[ Hence my question above. ]] They are not encouraged, they are only available at certain times that make it inconveniant for working parents, no child care is available. Sorry about your area. Have you researched more? [[ What could I possible answer but concern and a question of my own..to see if in fact becca had done a thorough search. There are certainly more options available than "no child are is available." Mother's coops, for instance are all over the place these days. ]] Most low income families that I know do not have a computer, nor do they know how to use the internet, nor do they have time to go to the library to take a class on how to use the internet. So how are they to gain access to parenting classes? I have no idea. How do they find time to watch TV? Bowl? Tavern hang? Check again with your county health department for available child rearing classes. [[ I answer the question and ask one as well, highly relevant to the issue.. .I find a great many parents that are on limited incomes do a lot of couch sitting watching TV, or spending time and money on their own entertainment, but NOT on improving child rearing skills. Their choice, of course. I am answering and asking questions....hardly what could be called "dodging." Unless one speaks Doanese of course. ]] By the way, I know many low income families and very few lack a computer. They are just so cheap these days. Used are going for $50 to a hundred bucks, with software installed, lots of it, including a browser. And kids are taught computer use in public schools. I'm still puzzled though that you think the community has some responsibility above and beyond the parents themselves to aquire better parenting skills, so they won't feel the need to spank. Remember, we are talking about making it a law not to spank. That is a motivator. Just like traffic laws that require being able to pass a driving test. Or a food handler's permit. Or practicing law. It's the person's responsibility...not one elses. No matter how available parenting information might be you cannot force people to access it unless you have a law that makes it illegal to spank. Non consentual spanking is assault if performed on an adult. How can it logically not be just because it's performed on a child. [[ I just went on at great lenght to respond directly to becca's comments and questions. "Dodging?" Where? ]] Kane kane Wrote: How would you get them to go to parenting classes until they were compelled to? The classes are everywhere. They are even free in some places. How would you force people to obey a no-spanking law without first setting up a support network, and educational resources? The classes are not everywhere. kane Wrote: How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not publicized enough? See above. [[ Here I asked a perfectly understandable question to a statement that has been chopped from the thread...why I cannot say, I certainly didn't remove anything in this thread at any point. becca claimed they families were not encouraged. I want to know more so I can answer more. ]] kane Wrote: Two problems, I think. One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed "early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the Constitution. One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child protection statutes. I was once considered an at risk parent. I was 19 with a newborn, and a history of family abuse. You know what my local hospital did upon discharge from the maternity unit. Sent a nurse to my home once a week for the first 6months of my child's life. She came to check up on my child, and my physical and emotional recovery. She provided me with information. She caught my post partum depression. She helped insure that mother child bond grew properly. If at 6months she felt that we needed more help she would have continued with her visits, and provided me with more information. Sometimes you have to go through the back door to get to the front door. kane Wrote: Two, money. Who will provide this support network? Churches, local interest groups, even the local health department schedules a variety of things to get young parents involved, especially new mothers, even providing child care during the meetings. if you are talking passing of a Federal Law then it should be Federal Money that pays for the classes, locations, and child care. Local government would be responsible for the support network. In my area most support groups for new parents, or parents with problems are either offered at the Intermediate school district, or at the Hospital. kane Wrote: The problem is that the families that are targetted for this help can refuse to respond, or simply not be interested, and that is certainly their right. I do not support compelled services unless the level of problem has reached a proportion that has involved child protection services by the state. yes that is certainly their right, but even having the help publicized to a level that will continually remind them that it is available would be a step in the right direction. As it stands now, you only hear of parenting classes if you are ordered to take them or you are looking for them. Yet you support a law to prohibit spanking, without first having programs in place to teach parents new techniques. If we were a bunch of cannabals who didn't know how to butcher a cow, would you be in support of a law that prohibits people eating without first teaching people how to butcher a cow? (weird analogy, but I think it works) kane Wrote: And while at one time such programs could access hospital records for new births, and visit the new mothers directly, they are now proscribed from doing so by HIPAA. Any PR or marketing of the programs have to be addressed into to already crowded media advertising world. As of september 2004 my local hospital was still sending nurses to new mother's homes. kane Wrote: There is nothing; poverty, large families, single parenting that MAKES a parent spank a child. I disagree. perhaps the situation doesn't "make" them spank...but it certainly makes it easier to spank. kane Wrote: A law will address the issue directly. How?? Do the laws against murder address the issues that cause a person to murder? No they just provide incentive not to, and punishment when you do. Speaking of punishment...what type of punishment do you have in mind for this law? kane Wrote: . Provide themselves with strees reducing activities and strategies for when parenting overwhelms them. Many single parent households, poor households, etc. Don't have the luxuery of a parental "time out" They have to work, they have to parent, they have to clean the house, they don't have the help needed to take a break. -- beccafromlalaland [[ The above is a series of odd juxtapositions of my prior comments, and becca's responses WITHOUT MY REPONSE..as I made NONE, until just today, because I had not seen this post. And the out of context cut and pasting reminds me of someone. ]] Kane -- Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be, the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very alien he doth appear? Kane 2006 |
#13
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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
Doan wrote:
That's just typical of ignoranus kane0. Be prepare for the adhom from him, beccafromlalalan. ;-) You post to another with an ad hom at me and warn her to watch for me using ad hom. Interesting, isn't it. Her question asking if I was dodging based on my non answers to her questions and only asking questions myself amounts to a false accusation. Reading over my posts in this thread and my reponses there is no such thing going on on my part. It's you that dodge Doan, constantly. Doan On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote: I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions. Dodging? I invite either you are "becca" to prove that I "... only responded to those items that," I " ... could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions." It's your kind of phony balony, Doan. The usual. You lost this debate years ago on facts, now you just dribble along. 0:- -- beccafromlalaland -- Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be, the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very alien he doth appear? Kane 2006 |
#14
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Kane,
While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed to answer the second half. The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop. The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your proposed law. Read the second half of my post. and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes.
__________________
Becca Momma to two boys Big Guy 3/02 and Wuvy-Buv 8/05 |
#15
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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote:
Kane, While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed to answer the second half. The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop. The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your proposed law. Read the second half of my post. and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes. -- beccafromlalaland Thanks, beccafromlalaland! That's very neat. How do I join the board? Doan |
#16
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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
beccafromlalaland wrote: Kane, While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed to answer the second half. The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop. The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your proposed law. Read the second half of my post. Your post claiming I failed to respond to these things was posted on Jan 30th at 7:32 pm .................................................. ...................... 7. beccafromlalaland Jan 30, 7:29 pm show options Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking From: beccafromlalaland - Find messages by this author Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 03:29:37 +0000 Local: Mon, Jan 30 2006 7:29 pm Subject: If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions. Dodging? -- beccafromlalaland .................................................. ........ All the responses I made to your question posed to me from you first post...the one suggesting an exploration of socio economic issues follow. I'll confine myself to cut and paste from my own posts, leaving yours out, but respond to precisely what you now claim I did not. And referring to your current claim of "The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop. The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your proposed law. " You postulated that classes were available only after the fact and not available. I responded with: "Anyone wishing to take a parenting class can find them easily. Health departments, parks and recreation, mental health departments, some schools, private instructors are all available. In fact, you can even find on-line classes. http://tinyurl.com/dastb " How is that NOT answering your question about teaching? In fact, I answered WHY we cannot get them educated before the fact BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO COMPELL THEM UNLESS WE BRING SOME CHARGE AGAINST THEM. And I pointed out that is what family court and CPS is FOR. "One is that you cannot compel them to attend unless they have CPS intervention going on. It would be civil rights violation. I've argued with state legislators over this when one governor or another proposed "early intervention" with new mothers in geographical areas considered high risk, or with behaviors considered high risk. They understood rather easily when I pointed out the BOR to them from the Constitution. One cannot compel another's actions without due cause. And that has to be addressed with some action. The only legal action would be child protection statutes. " I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION, did I not? I know of know legal policy that can get people educated before the fact. I do know though that efforts have been made by encorporating such education into the highschool classroom in some areas. I did not mention that before, because it IS NOT A MANDATORY class subject. And it can't be made to be. Unless you wish to try and convince parents it's more important than math. In fact I went on at great length to answer your question in http://groups.google.com/group/alt.p...6a3da36?hl=en& 4. 0:- Jan 29, 5:16 pm hide options Newsgroups: alt.parenting.spanking From: "0:-" - Find messages by this author Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:16:19 -0800 Then in your message #5 that followed you asked me how one could force them to obey a law they had been provided services to allow them to: "How would you force people to obey a no-spanking law without first setting up a support network, and educational resources? The classes are not everywhere. " I respond in message #5 as follows: "Check again with your county health department for available child rearing classes. " "I'm still puzzled though that you think the community has some responsibility above and beyond the parents themselves to aquire better parenting skills, so they won't feel the need to spank. Remember, we are talking about making it a law not to spank. That is a motivator. Just like traffic laws that require being able to pass a driving test. Or a food handler's permit. Or practicing law. It's the person's responsibility...not one elses. No matter how available parenting information might be you cannot force people to access it unless you have a law that makes it illegal to spank. " I even pointed out how to access free computer access, and cheap computers. And you followed all my attempts to answer the questions you actually asked with this insult: " 7. beccafromlalaland I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions. Dodging? " Then in your message, #5 in the thread, you asked: "Speaking of punishment...what type of punishment do you have in mind for this law? " Which I had ALREADY COVERED IN DEPTH in my prior post, #4 in the series. Read it again and tell me that I did not answer your question. It may not be to YOUR satisfaction, but I sure as hell did NOT ignore your question. I included only ONE penalty...(and I don't consider it a "punishment" that they be required to "rehabilitate." So obviously I did not advocate a punishment. If that is what you consider not answering your question, think you should read my message again, or are you playing "Doan" on me now? Pick a single word and hairsplit down to the point YOU can make a claim about MY intent or failure that is NOT actually in evidence? Did you miss where I DID in fact answer that question in the only way it can be answered, by referrence to current child abuse statutes (and one would presume their penalties listed) in the states? "The only legal action would be child protection statutes." I did not LIST the penalties because I would have to review all states to do so. and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes. My own newsreaders and google manage to do the same. I'm not sure what you are referring to, SINCE YOU DON'T INCLUDED my "actually neatly Quoted " comments in this post where you are simply referring to them. In fact the ONLY instance of my comments in this post ARE MY OWN CUT AND PASTE from prior posts. You did it again. You accused me of something but left all referrences to it ABSENT from view. -- beccafromlalaland And you have NOT, yourself, responded to many of MY questions and commentary. Why is THAT? I have answered all of yours. Kane |
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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
beccafromlalaland wrote: Kane, While you answered the first half of the questions I asked you failed to answer the second half. The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop. You do by the way understand how incongruent that question is, don't you? I said, by emposing state states on child abuse that exist NOW. I'm not going to list them all. The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your proposed law. I answered that and you are now doing what amounts to harrassment. Very Doanlike harrassment. Read the second half of my post. I read it all, and answered it all, and responded in another posted reply to this same message with more detailed information citations of prior posts and all. and as for the "cutting and pasting" thing. Perhaps you should mosey on over to the parentingbanter.com board and see that HERE your words are actually neatly Quoted in highlighted text boxes. That makes no difference how the formatting is done. If it's missing, it's missing because you left it out. -- beccafromlalaland Doan is pulling your chain and you are obeying. He must be pleased to have created a little servant. 0:- |
#18
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If you want to discuss something I feel is relevant
Doan wrote:
That's just typical of ignoranus kane0. Be prepare for the adhom from him, beccafromlalalan. ;-) Only to harassment, and lies, unlike you Doan. Hence, it's not typical, and further that would make it misleading on your part. You are lying, in other words. Why do you lie about me? So, simply to harass? You seem to be attempting to woe "becca" rather energetically. Doan 0:- On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, beccafromlalaland wrote: I noticed that you only responded to those items that you could ask more questions...and did not answer any of my questions. Dodging? -- beccafromlalaland -- Isn't it interesting that the more honest an author appears to be, the more like ourselves we think him. And the less so, how very alien he doth appear? Kane 2006 |
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Kane,
You're right I did edit some of what you wrote. I took out items that were irrelevant to what I wished to ask you or comment on. For example the URL you provided for online parenting classes. It was unnecessary for me to quote the URL, it would have been redundant as I had not comment on the URL in question. When I removed my comments that triggered your comments/questions/rebuttal leaving your comments "lonely and dangling" I did so that those reading along didn't have to sift through 300lines of dialogue to catch up to what we are talking about, and I presumed that you would know/remember what our conversation was about. Perhaps I presumed wrongly. As for you quoting the Embry study again...you cannot accuse me of dodging because I had already stated I would not be baited into a long drawn out discussion on a teeny tiny report from 25yrs ago. To answer your question regarding who is responsible for the lack of available parenting classes in my area. The State and Federal government. There is no funding. My comment "see above" in response to your question "How are they not encouraged? You mean actively discouraged, or not publicized enough?" was to save myself time typing out the answer because i had just answered it above. You have a knack for asking the same questions several ways trying to get different answers so you can trip people up with their words. I split up one very long paragraph of yours so I could comment on individual portions in the hopes that it would be less confusing. But I see you were confused by it. Perhaps you should carefully read next time. You keep saying that you responded to "The one that addressed HOW you would propose stopping the offending behavior without first TEACHING people how to stop. The One that asked what Punishment you propose for violating your proposed law." I have read and reread your posts...and you did NOT answer these questions. If you feel you did, perhaps you can do a little copy and paste yourself in your next messege and point them out to me. I assume you are intelligiant enough to figure out which portions of your extensive butt cover....erm clarification of your prior posts I am responding to...but I've been wrong before.
__________________
Becca Momma to two boys Big Guy 3/02 and Wuvy-Buv 8/05 |
#20
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Doan,
Go to parentingbanner.com in the bluish tool bar at the top should be a button to click to subscribe or join or something along those lines. Being able to directly quote people makes things easier. Although I didn't quote Kane in my prior post because it would have been more confusing trying to filter through the bs to get to the heart of what he was trying to say.
__________________
Becca Momma to two boys Big Guy 3/02 and Wuvy-Buv 8/05 |
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