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#41
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"enigma" wrote in message . .. "P. Tierney" wrote in news:8663e.123250$r55.48940@attbi_s52: "Herman Rubin" wrote in message ... Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic private educational opportunities, which are extremely rare at this time. The nationally recognized academic private school that I attended was about as traditional as they come. And they staff scoffed at certain local public school reforms, like ability-grouped K-4 classes, with age not taken into consideration. from what i've seen, those nationally recognised private schools (charter schools?) are mostly worse than public school. i'm suspect of anything like that because they're corporate. coroporations are all about making money for thier stockholders. keeping a bottom line is not conducive to a good education... In my case, I refer to a Catholic school, not the kind of corporate charter that you mention. The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students by age, or to have them in the same grade in every subject. But they are not really prepared for any alternative, both academically and sociologically. Private schools aren't either. depends on the private school. There certainly are exceptions. Well over 90%, I would guess, are fairly traditional. Montessori schools have kids in groups: pre-k/K (3-6ish), lower elementary (6-9ish), upper elementary (9-12ish). the school Boo attends allows crossovers if a kid is advanced or behind in subjects. the Waldorf schools i've looked into have 3-6s in one group, then one teacher that takes the kids from 1st to 8th grade (so they have the same teacher for 8 years). Those seem like good schools, but locally, are the most expensive in town. i see both these models having *huge* advantages over how public school work, but i don't see anyone suggesting these as possible 'reforms' to public schools. Some non-aged grouping has been done here, but the parents overwhelmingly objected. Teachers following students through the grades has also been done at various public schools around here. P. Tierney |
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"Herman Rubin" wrote in message ... In article 8663e.123250$r55.48940@attbi_s52, P. Tierney wrote: "Herman Rubin" wrote in message ... In article , Banty wrote: In article , Herman Rubin says... In article , enigma wrote: "Bob Coleslaw" wrote in : .................... The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers". And vouchers will do - what - - exactly - to fix this? Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic private educational opportunities, which are extremely rare at this time. The nationally recognized academic private school that I attended was about as traditional as they come. And they staff scoffed at certain local public school reforms, like ability-grouped K-4 classes, with age not taken into consideration. What happens to a student who passes the "4" level in some subject at age 6? Beats me. I didn't say that it fit your model to a T. Nothing does. Nationally recognized by whom? Of the top of my head, I can't recall. I could look it up, but I'd bet that it's organizations that you don't respect. And I'm not saying that it's a great place. I won't send my child there. But it *is* the type of place that, if given a free ride, parents would flock to -- that school and ones like it. If it is an organization of teachers and schools of education, it is recognizing trivia instead of substance. Maybe, maybe not. An academic school will not have a child in a "class" for all subjects. Like the college that you teach at? I'd be interested to hear what you've done to break the mold at your job. I am more and more questioning whether an academic "school" will even be a school as is usually understood. By your definition, perhaps not. But by the public's, it will. The schools have to satisfy the parents, not you. If you wish to scoff at their choices from on high, then that is your right. But it won't change anything. The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students by age, or to have them in the same grade in every subject. But they are not really prepared for any alternative, both academically and sociologically. Private schools aren't either. And the few academic ones do not. Generally, I agree. But that is what the parents want. P. Tierney |
#43
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P. Tierney wrote: "enigma" wrote in message Montessori schools have kids in groups: pre-k/K (3-6ish), lower elementary (6-9ish), upper elementary (9-12ish). the school Boo attends allows crossovers if a kid is advanced or behind in subjects. the Waldorf schools i've looked into have 3-6s in one group, then one teacher that takes the kids from 1st to 8th grade (so they have the same teacher for 8 years). Those seem like good schools, but locally, are the most expensive in town. i see both these models having *huge* advantages over how public school work, but i don't see anyone suggesting these as possible 'reforms' to public schools. Some non-aged grouping has been done here, but the parents overwhelmingly objected. Teachers following students through the grades has also been done at various public schools around here. I've changed my mind somewhat on these two measures over the years. I used to be very much in favor of grouping by ability rather than by age. The problem I've come up against is that school isn't just about academics, there are also social factors. And while some mixing of age-groups is a good thing, I feel that making it a continuum puts the youngest kids at a social disadvantage, and makes them want to emulate the older ones, ready or not. The same teacher each year seemed like a good idea, too, especially for shy kids. But I can see quite a few downsides. 1. If the teacher and the student are not a really good fit, there's no hope that the next change will be better. 2. Teachers, being human, are likely to develop views about each child's nature and abilities over time. These can become counter-productive. 3. Children change over time, more rapidly than adults; and what was a good fit at first is not necessarily so two or three years later --especially if the teacher is happier with certain age-groups than with others. 4. If a teacher is with the same student for 8 years, it makes the teacher extremely salient in that child's life, but it may not be a reciprocal relationship. This could be quite distressing to a child who finds himself or herself forgotten and supplanted in the teacher's affections by the new class. (And what does the teacher do? Start a new class over every 8 years?) 5. It also makes it more difficult for a new student - not only does the child join a group where the kids have known each other for years, they also know the teacher and she knows them. The child becomes a double outsider. This was, in fact, one of the several reasons I didn't pick a Waldorf school for my kids. We did use a Montessori, though, and were pretty happy with that for pre-school. We chose regular schools for later years, though. Rupa |
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#46
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"Herman Rubin" wrote in message ... The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students by age, or to have them in the same grade in every subject. But they are not really prepared for any alternative, both academically and sociologically. Right, and there are public Montessori schools - which have multi-age classes (e.g., 1-3 grades) whose students are not limited to corresponding grade curricula. So, if a 7 year old is doing 6th grade math, she works on 6th grade math material. Admittedly there are not many but they exist. Jeanne |
#47
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"P. Tierney" wrote:
.... Ours has no say, and very little overall power in hiring beyond the superintendent. The individual school site-based committees pick their own principal and administrators, assuming they passed the screening interviews of the superintendent. The school board has no say at all (and they don't like it, I might add). I'm sure they could change that if they (a majority, anyway) really wanted to... I suspect that those that "don't like it" are those who like to be noticed in the community but would actually have very little penchant for actual work in more detail...just extrapolating from boards in places I've been to observe closely... |
#48
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"Bob Coleslaw" wrote
Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? No, of course not. The gov't should stop stealing money from the citizenry in the first place and people should be able to educate their children as they see fit. All of the public schools buildings and facilities should be auctioned off to the highest bidder and the proceeds divided amongst the people that paid for them, the taxpayers. Then, and only then, will all of the employees of the defunct and fraudulent, not to mention immoral, public school system start learning how to be productive and contributing members of society rather than the plague and deadweight they are presently. |
#49
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On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:28:36 GMT, "Don"
wrote: "Bob Coleslaw" wrote Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? No, of course not. The gov't should stop stealing money from the citizenry in the first place and people should be able to educate their children as they see fit. All of the public schools buildings and facilities should be auctioned off to the highest bidder and the proceeds divided amongst the people that paid for them, the taxpayers. Then, and only then, will all of the employees of the defunct and fraudulent, not to mention immoral, public school system start learning how to be productive and contributing members of society rather than the plague and deadweight they are presently. I assume you also oppose and tax credits or government subsidies for daycare so mothers can work. Will your church provide for the children of the poor so the parents can work at less than the minimum wage and survive? -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#50
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Is this money for woodworking classes?
If not, what's it have to do with this news group. On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:28:36 GMT, "Don" wrote: "Bob Coleslaw" wrote Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use that money to fix up the public schools? No, of course not. The gov't should stop stealing money from the citizenry in the first place and people should be able to educate their children as they see fit. All of the public schools buildings and facilities should be auctioned off to the highest bidder and the proceeds divided amongst the people that paid for them, the taxpayers. Then, and only then, will all of the employees of the defunct and fraudulent, not to mention immoral, public school system start learning how to be productive and contributing members of society rather than the plague and deadweight they are presently. |
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