what to do when your kid hurts another

DS is 7 yo and he kicked his 5 yo friend who was visiting in our house. I
was mortified. DS knows better to hit, and this child is so much smaller
than he and for no real reason (he claims the other child made him drop his
crackers). I immediately made him apologize and sent DS to his room and he
is still sitting there. I brought the other child home and apologized to
the mom. I talked it over with DH and we came up with a punishment of no
friends for five days and he needs to write a letter of apology to the 5 yo,
along with a verbal and heartfelt apology to the child and his mom. What
would you do?

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:29:00 -0700, toypup wrote...

DS is 7 yo and he kicked his 5 yo friend who was visiting in our house. I
was mortified. DS knows better to hit, and this child is so much smaller
than he and for no real reason (he claims the other child made him drop his
crackers). I immediately made him apologize and sent DS to his room and he
is still sitting there. I brought the other child home and apologized to
the mom. I talked it over with DH and we came up with a punishment of no
friends for five days and he needs to write a letter of apology to the 5 yo,
along with a verbal and heartfelt apology to the child and his mom. What
would you do?

Holy God, are you serious? Over-react much?

First of all, you cannot force a heartfelt apology. Secondly, I'm sorry
but a letter is more than a bit ridiculous. You're taking a one-time
and very small event and making a federal case out of it. Eventually
this singular lack of perspective will cause a ton of problems, I'd bet.

--
A. Summers || summerstorm0007--at--yahoo.com

"Anthony Summers" wrote in message
...

Holy God, are you serious? Over-react much?

First of all, you cannot force a heartfelt apology. Secondly, I'm sorry
but a letter is more than a bit ridiculous. You're taking a one-time
and very small event and making a federal case out of it. Eventually
this singular lack of perspective will cause a ton of problems, I'd bet.

The heartfelt apology means one that is said without a roll of the eye, as
sincere as can be mustered. At the time he does it, I'm sure he will be
sincere, since he often acts on the spur of the moment and is very sorry
afterwards. I don't consider violence on another child, especially one much
smaller than oneself, to be a small event. How do you suggest it be
handled?

On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:02:12 -0700, toypup wrote...

"Anthony Summers" wrote in message
...

Holy God, are you serious? Over-react much?

First of all, you cannot force a heartfelt apology. Secondly, I'm sorry
but a letter is more than a bit ridiculous. You're taking a one-time
and very small event and making a federal case out of it. Eventually
this singular lack of perspective will cause a ton of problems, I'd bet.

The heartfelt apology means one that is said without a roll of the eye, as
sincere as can be mustered. At the time he does it, I'm sure he will be
sincere, since he often acts on the spur of the moment and is very sorry
afterwards. I don't consider violence on another child, especially one much
smaller than oneself, to be a small event. How do you suggest it be
handled?

There is a world of difference between "violence" and two kids
interacting relatively normally.

Did this savage kick so much as break skin on the "victim"?

As for what I'd do, if my 7-year-old son kicked a 5-year-old playmate,
if I witnessed it and knew it was unprovoked, he'd be straight off to
his room. After about 10 minutes, I'd go upstairs to speak with him,
ask him why he did what he did, and tell him to go and apologize to his
friend. I know my son, and by the time we were done talking, he'd very
likely be pretty upset with himself for mistreating his friend, as he is
generally kind, generous, and even protective of his friends. He'd go
downstairs, apologize, and they'd resume playing. Simple.

If I didn't see it myself, it probably would go without punishment as it
would probably go unreported. Boys play rough with each other all the
time, unless they're living in unrealistic coccoons, protected from all
the vagaries of life which is useful right up to the point that they hit
the real world and their Mommy isn't there to punish everyone who fails
to treat them exactly as they'd like to be treated.

If it was reported, and there was no injury, I'd probably lecture my
daughter for tattling (as it's most likely to be reported by her, if
anyone). If the neighbor boy (the only 5-year-old playmate my son has)
reported it, I'd loudly send my son to his room, and then either take
the playmate home or resume whatever game they were playing, etc, with
the boy myself until I went upstairs to speak with my son as above.


--
A. Summers || summerstorm0007--at--yahoo.com

"toypup" wrote in message
...


"Anthony Summers" wrote in message
...

Holy God, are you serious? Over-react much?

First of all, you cannot force a heartfelt apology. Secondly, I'm sorry
but a letter is more than a bit ridiculous. You're taking a one-time
and very small event and making a federal case out of it. Eventually
this singular lack of perspective will cause a ton of problems, I'd bet.

The heartfelt apology means one that is said without a roll of the eye, as
sincere as can be mustered. At the time he does it, I'm sure he will be
sincere, since he often acts on the spur of the moment and is very sorry
afterwards. I don't consider violence on another child, especially one
much smaller than oneself, to be a small event. How do you suggest it be
handled?

You can't force an apology that means much out of a child unless they do it
on their own.
I've really been listening to this audio book lately. It just kind of plays
over and over in the van. I did mention it above in a tread the other day,
but anyways...
I find this audio book has some fantastic ideas - and I've been trying to do
my best to start us around here doing it. It just makes sense.
One thing the woman says (the woman that is doing this audio book, which
sounds to me like some sort of presentation or convention type speech) is
that in her house, "If you hit, you sit" She said that if one child hits
another, then they sit in the rocker. If it's her child, the child sits in
the rocker. If it's a friend's or neighbour's child, they have the option
to either sit in the rocker or they go home. She even said that the other
kids in her house know about this rule, and after one time of hearing some
commotion from the kids downstairs, she was on her way down and crossed
paths with one neighbour boy, who said on his own, "I'm going to the rocker,
Mrs. C" and off he went. This woman says that the rule for the "if you hit,
you sit" rule is that when you (the child) are ready to resume playing in an
appropriate way, you are free to go. It might be a minute, it might be 10
minutes of sitting on the rocker (or the chair, or a given spot on the
floor - whatever) but when the child feels he or she is ready, then they are
free to go. As a parent or adult, you'll know they are ready if they go
back and play without hitting (or kicking, slapping, shoving, whatever) and
they get sent back to sit if they hit again. She says that children will
learn one of two things... Either he'll learn to sit real well a lot or
he'll learn to play nice. She says he won't learn to hit by spending time
sitting. Chances are when they go back to play, all will pretty much be
forgotten, but the "aggressor" at the time will surely remember not to hit
(or kick or whatever)
Apologies are useless. Most of the time kids don't mean it and are saying
it for YOU, not them or the other child. If a child feels the need to
apologize, it should not be because it was suggested to them. Chances are
the kid knows he did something that wasn't acceptable. I bet he's not
stupid, as most kids aren't. I wouldn't even say an apology is needed.
It's useless. I also would spare my child the embarrassment of a big
written letter or apology in person to the child and their parents. This
said audio book has really been helpful - for me, anyways - and I am really
trying to curb certain behavior (for me AND the kids). Kids will be kids,
and chances are that the other kid won't really care or remember. Kids seem
to get over things fairly easily. And they'll be back playing and just fine
in no time at all. Dragging it out seems pointless.

If the child was physically harmed, I'd let it go. Also, another rule of
thumb is not to punish, but to discipline. Shame and all that isn't a good
way to handle things, it seems. If you didn't see it actually happen, then
you can't blame one or the other. Trying to get a news story from two
editorials is pointless (he did this first! She did that before! - the
'tell me your side, tell me your side' thing) and if no one was actually
hurt, then I would let it go. I would just try and enforce something that
is along the lines of the you hit, you sit idea.

Maybe I'm not one to talk - I know I have some major issues around here with
dealing, but after I have been listening to this audio book a fair bit, a
lot of it - if not all of it - seems to make a lot of sense. And I am
trying to slowly work a number of these ideas and suggestion around here.
There hasn't been a MAJOR or drastic change, but there are small changes
here, which is a really, really good start for me.

"Kat" wrote in message
...
Apologies are useless. Most of the time kids don't mean it and are saying
it for YOU, not them or the other child.

I disagree with this. If a child hurts someone, he must apologize. There
are adults in this world whose egos are so big, they never learn to do that
and it hurts their relationships with others. Even if at first, the kids
apologize to make parents happy, they eventually learn the value of it when
they see the positive effects it has on their relationships with others. DS
has learned to apologize when he makes mistakes and I do believe he does it
with sincerity.

It's useless. I also would spare my child the embarrassment of a big
written letter or apology in person to the child and their parents.

I also disagree here. The letter is not intended to embarrass but rather it
is exactly that -- an apology. If someone hurt me and apologized in a
letter, I would feel better about it.

and chances are that the other kid won't really care or remember. Kids
seem to get over things fairly easily. And they'll be back playing and
just fine in no time at all. Dragging it out seems pointless.

I agree that things will be fine. DD got into something with her friend and
I don't remember what it was, but when her friend came over, she took DD's
hand and looked her in the eye and apologized. I am sure her mother put her
up to it, but it was heartfelt and all was better. All would have been
forgotten anyway, but I think that was honorable.


If the child was physically harmed, I'd let it go. Also, another rule of
thumb is not to punish, but to discipline. Shame and all that isn't a
good way to handle things, it seems. If you didn't see it actually
happen, then you can't blame one or the other.

The story was clear cut, as DS is truthful (one quality I admire about him)
and told me exactly what happened. The story was not told by the neighbor
child. I am not attempting to shame my child. I am attempting to help him
to right a wrong. If you hurt someone, is it shameful to apologize?

"toypup" wrote in message
...


"Kat" wrote in message
...
Apologies are useless. Most of the time kids don't mean it and are
saying it for YOU, not them or the other child.

I disagree with this. If a child hurts someone, he must apologize. There
are adults in this world whose egos are so big, they never learn to do
that and it hurts their relationships with others. Even if at first, the
kids apologize to make parents happy, they eventually learn the value of
it when they see the positive effects it has on their relationships with
others. DS has learned to apologize when he makes mistakes and I do
believe he does it with sincerity.

It's useless. I also would spare my child the embarrassment of a big
written letter or apology in person to the child and their parents.

I also disagree here. The letter is not intended to embarrass but rather
it is exactly that -- an apology. If someone hurt me and apologized in a
letter, I would feel better about it.

Both of what you said are fair statements about an apology. Why make him
apologize twice? If your DS is one to feel some kind of remorse for
something that seems to be out of the blue (I get the impression that he's
not one to kick and hurt others on a regular basis, and this little incident
with the other kid is not something that happens every time he's playing
with someone) Anyways, if he is one to feel bad after hurting someone, I
think then the apology would be from him, without you needing to prompt. I
am meaning a forced apology is useless if you need to tell them over and
over.
I know with my DDs, they're at that age where they're at eachother's necks
most of the time. At 2 and 3, hitting seems to be almost a natural reaction
if one takes something away from the other. For this, I have tried to make
one say sorry over and over and over, and it's pointless. For them,
something like a hug is more effective if one kicks or hits the other one
out of frustration.
Even at 2 and 3, though, they do know how to apologize. DD2 (the 2 year
old) even knows how to say sorry - the other day she tripped DD1 and down
DD1 goes. DD2 turned around and said, "Oh! Sorry!"
I realize a 2 year old and 7 year old can't really be compared, but it's
that even a 2 year old can say sorry on their own and mean it as far as what
they think it means. And forcing it IS useless. I would rather have no
apology from another adult for something than one that involves eye rolling
or forcing or snapping or not meaning it.
If your DS is one to feel bad for apologizing, then he'll do it on his own.
And maybe he already did apologize to the other child. He might not have
told you he did say he was sorry, but he also might have. I think the
apology for something like kicking someone else is best done at the time, or
fairly shortly after.

and chances are that the other kid won't really care or remember. Kids
seem to get over things fairly easily. And they'll be back playing and
just fine in no time at all. Dragging it out seems pointless.

I agree that things will be fine. DD got into something with her friend
and I don't remember what it was, but when her friend came over, she took
DD's hand and looked her in the eye and apologized. I am sure her mother
put her up to it, but it was heartfelt and all was better. All would have
been forgotten anyway, but I think that was honorable.


If the child was physically harmed, I'd let it go. Also, another rule of
thumb is not to punish, but to discipline. Shame and all that isn't a
good way to handle things, it seems. If you didn't see it actually
happen, then you can't blame one or the other.

The story was clear cut, as DS is truthful (one quality I admire about
him) and told me exactly what happened. The story was not told by the
neighbor child. I am not attempting to shame my child. I am attempting
to help him to right a wrong. If you hurt someone, is it shameful to
apologize?

No, I didn't mean that. I was just putting a point out that this isn't
something a person wants to do. I didn't mean to imply you were doing it or
going to do it at all.
Did DS apologize to the other child? Help him up, give him a hug, shake his
hand, help him sit down or anything like that? Before you were around?
If he felt bad, did he say he was sorry at the time? Or do something to
say/show he was sorry when he knew he did something wrong? Even a hug could
mean "I'm sorry I did this" - or if he's at the age where hugging someone
else is not alright, helping him up, something else that might have shown he
knew he did something that wasn't alright and tried to make it better?

"toypup" wrote:

and chances are that the other kid won't really care or remember. Kids
seem to get over things fairly easily. And they'll be back playing and
just fine in no time at all. Dragging it out seems pointless.

I agree that things will be fine. DD got into something with her friend and
I don't remember what it was, but when her friend came over, she took DD's
hand and looked her in the eye and apologized. I am sure her mother put her
up to it, but it was heartfelt and all was better. All would have been
forgotten anyway, but I think that was honorable.

Having been on the receiving end....

When dd#1 was about 2, we went to visit my old friend (we were in school
together from kindergarten to 8th grade). We were both pregnant and she had a
little boy who was about a year older than dd. The child was massively jealous
of the attention that his mom was paying to me and to dd#1. So he hauled off
and hit her over the head with a metal train engine.

His mom was mortified of course. DD#1 didn't even cry - she just kind of looked
at him, and then went on with what she was doing. My friend did something in
the way of mitigation that I thought was appropriate at the time but I confess
that I don't remember what it was. DD didn't appear to be hurt, so I wasn't
upset.

I could see what his problem was and that he really didn't have the language to
address it - what he wanted was for us to leave so he could have his mom's
exclusive attention again, but I wasn't going to do that.

You can't force an apology that means much out of a child unless they do it
on their own.

I'm not convinced that not making a child say something because they
don't mean it is necessarily the way to go in the long term. Take basic
manners, like saying please and thank you. If you do baby sign language
that might be something you are working on before they are one, without
sign language it's still something that you think about well before age
2. But for months or even years the understanding of the child is
unlikely to go beyond I do this because this is what I have to do to
make my mother give me a drink, not because they have a true sense of
the meaning. Saying the word sorry is less generic than please or thank
you, but it's heading that way. Saying please, thank you, sorry and
responding if a question is asked is pretty much my bottom line of basic
manners and so far it seems to be working and not saying sorry is
unacceptable in our house, though our children do seem to be wired such
that they cannot say sorry without meaning it in some way and if there
is no remorse in them at all, they stubbornly refuse to apologise, which
results in time out.

Cheers
Anne

"toypup" wrote in message
...
DS is 7 yo and he kicked his 5 yo friend who was visiting in our house. I
was mortified. DS knows better to hit, and this child is so much smaller
than he and for no real reason (he claims the other child made him drop
his crackers). I immediately made him apologize and sent DS to his room
and he is still sitting there. I brought the other child home and
apologized to the mom. I talked it over with DH and we came up with a
punishment of no friends for five days and he needs to write a letter of
apology to the 5 yo, along with a verbal and heartfelt apology to the
child and his mom. What would you do?
Sounds reasonable to me, except I'd only make him apologise to the child, he
hasn't done (to his mind) anything to the mum. I'd probably do the verbal
apology as something like "I'm sorry I kicked you, and here is a letter
telling you that I'm sorry", rather than making it a separate issue.
Debbie