getting my head round car seat rules

I'm confused by the car seat laws here, this is what it says:

Children under the age of three must be properly
secured in an approved child car seat. Children should be
secured in the rear seat. Never secure a child in the front
passenger side, especially if your vehicle has an air bag. If
you are in a crash and the bag opens, your child could be
injured or killed.
Washington state requires proper restraint of children:
.. one year and under, or 20 pounds and under, in a
rear-facing child car seat,
.. one to four years and from 20 to 40 pounds in a
forward-facing child car seat,
.. four to six years and between 40 and 60 pounds in a
booster seat, and
.. six years and older or over 60 pounds with seat belts
or a booster seat.

Firstly, in the initial paragraph, it says 3, then further down says 4. But
also it doesn't distinguish whether they have to reach both height and age,
or one. Finally, I can't find out for sure anywhere if a booster with a back
would be considered a forward facing car seat, or whether it would have to
be one with a 5 point harness?

If I could figure that out, then I might at least be some way on the way to
working out out particular situation, we are still a few months off, but
Nathanael will be 4 in May, but there is absolutely no way he will be 40
pounds, but he will get too tall for his seat at some point, possibly before
then, possibly after, but unless something very odd happens, well before he
is 40 pounds. So ideally we'd get him a booster with a back that will last
through his car seat using days, but that will only work, if either a
booster with a back counts as a car seat, or he gets into the 4-6 category
by age (in which case, he apparently wouldn't need one with a back, but I
think that would be better as whilst he's not as short as his is skinny, he
is still on the short side).

I also can't get a clear answer for Washington school bus laws, I have a
friend who's twins still aren't 40 pounds, or only one of them is, at age 7,
they rode the school bus from the start of kindergarten and have never been
asked about weight, which seems the opposite to what I've heard people in
other states say, but I wonder if it's one of those things that is in the
law, but the onus is on the parents to figure it out, when I asked my
friend, she didn't know what the law was and had assumed that because no one
had asked it was fine.

I'd also be interested to know if there is actually any research that
supports the weight as being the cut off for changes, it partially makes
sense due to the tension on the seat belt in an accident, but when it comes
to the change between seats and boosters, it would seem height was also
important?

Cheers

Anne

"Anne Rogers" wrote in message
...
I'm confused by the car seat laws here, this is what it says:
I also can't get a clear answer for Washington school bus laws, I have a
friend who's twins still aren't 40 pounds, or only one of them is, at age
7, they rode the school bus from the start of kindergarten and have never
been asked about weight, which seems the opposite to what I've heard
people in other states say, but I wonder if it's one of those things that
is in the law, but the onus is on the parents to figure it out, when I
asked my friend, she didn't know what the law was and had assumed that
because no one had asked it was fine.

I'd assume that the busses don't require any carseats. At least here in CT,
they don't, simply because there are no seat belts on the busses (and
therefore no way to install a carseat). Also here in CT, the children that
attend the 'pre-K' and head start programs are required to be in a carseat
on the bus if they are under 4....but they only use mini busses for these
programs as far as I have seen, and the seats are permanently installed in
the minibusses. At least that is how it worked when I was a teacher in Head
Start.

According to what I understand about the safety of the seat belts and
booster seats, height is the overriding factor more than anything deciding
if the child should be in a booster seat since auto seat belts are not
designed to be safe for anyone under something like 4'9".

Anne Rogers wrote:
I'm confused by the car seat laws here, this is what it says:

Children under the age of three must be properly
secured in an approved child car seat. Children should be
secured in the rear seat. Never secure a child in the front
passenger side, especially if your vehicle has an air bag. If
you are in a crash and the bag opens, your child could be
injured or killed.
Washington state requires proper restraint of children:
. one year and under, or 20 pounds and under, in a
rear-facing child car seat,
. one to four years and from 20 to 40 pounds in a
forward-facing child car seat,
. four to six years and between 40 and 60 pounds in a
booster seat, and
. six years and older or over 60 pounds with seat belts
or a booster seat.

Firstly, in the initial paragraph, it says 3, then further down says 4. But
also it doesn't distinguish whether they have to reach both height and age,
or one. Finally, I can't find out for sure anywhere if a booster with a back
would be considered a forward facing car seat, or whether it would have to
be one with a 5 point harness?

If I could figure that out, then I might at least be some way on the way to
working out out particular situation, we are still a few months off, but
Nathanael will be 4 in May, but there is absolutely no way he will be 40
pounds, but he will get too tall for his seat at some point, possibly before
then, possibly after, but unless something very odd happens, well before he
is 40 pounds. So ideally we'd get him a booster with a back that will last
through his car seat using days, but that will only work, if either a
booster with a back counts as a car seat, or he gets into the 4-6 category
by age (in which case, he apparently wouldn't need one with a back, but I
think that would be better as whilst he's not as short as his is skinny, he
is still on the short side).


The way I read the laws for your son is if he is four but not yet 40 lbs
then he should be in a forward facing carseat (not a booster seat).
When he hits 40 lbs and if he's under the age of six, then he needs to
be in a booster seat. Once he hits 60 lbs and if he's 6 or older then
he can either be in a booster seat (they go up to 80 lbs now!) or just
be seat-belted.

I wouldn't count a high-back booster as a car seat. A car seat has its
own straps while a booster uses the car seat belts to hold the child in
place. A booster's main function is to raise the child (to boost) so
the shoulder is at the right level.

FWIW, one friend had her kids in boosters until 4th grade. According to
your laws, DD still needs to be in a booster (56 lbs) although she is 9
years old, in 4th grade and about 4'8".

I also can't get a clear answer for Washington school bus laws, I have a
friend who's twins still aren't 40 pounds, or only one of them is, at age 7,
they rode the school bus from the start of kindergarten and have never been
asked about weight, which seems the opposite to what I've heard people in
other states say, but I wonder if it's one of those things that is in the
law, but the onus is on the parents to figure it out, when I asked my
friend, she didn't know what the law was and had assumed that because no one
had asked it was fine.


I don't think children need to be belted on school buses.

I'd also be interested to know if there is actually any research that
supports the weight as being the cut off for changes, it partially makes
sense due to the tension on the seat belt in an accident, but when it comes
to the change between seats and boosters, it would seem height was also
important?


I have the same question. Although my daughter doesn't meet the weight
requirement, she is tall enough so the shoulder belt is properly placed
(e.g., not rubbing against her neck). I had her sitting in a booster
until this past summer. I also had several of her friends sitting in a
booster - they all hated it and claimed they didn't have to sit in one
in their own car. I told them that was the rule in my car.

The way I read the laws for your son is if he is four but not yet 40 lbs
then he should be in a forward facing carseat (not a booster seat). When
he hits 40 lbs and if he's under the age of six, then he needs to be in a
booster seat. Once he hits 60 lbs and if he's 6 or older then he can
either be in a booster seat (they go up to 80 lbs now!) or just be
seat-belted.

I wouldn't count a high-back booster as a car seat. A car seat has its
own straps while a booster uses the car seat belts to hold the child in
place. A booster's main function is to raise the child (to boost) so the
shoulder is at the right level.

if that really is the case, that the lower bounds are AND and a booster with
a back is not a car seat, there will come a point when we are completely
stuck, his weight is below 0.4th centile, but his height is 10th-25th
centile, so he will be too tall for his car seat and any other car seat, but
not 40 pounds!

If I thought it was a safety issue, I'd be lobbying car seat manufacturers
to make a suitable seat, but it seems to me that once he has grown out of
his seat height wise, he's going to be fine in a booster with a back.

Cheers

Anne

Anne Rogers wrote:
I'm confused by the car seat laws here, this is what it says:

Children under the age of three must be properly
secured in an approved child car seat. Children should be
secured in the rear seat. Never secure a child in the front
passenger side, especially if your vehicle has an air bag. If
you are in a crash and the bag opens, your child could be
injured or killed.
Washington state requires proper restraint of children:
. one year and under, or 20 pounds and under, in a
rear-facing child car seat,
. one to four years and from 20 to 40 pounds in a
forward-facing child car seat,
. four to six years and between 40 and 60 pounds in a
booster seat, and
. six years and older or over 60 pounds with seat belts
or a booster seat.

Firstly, in the initial paragraph, it says 3, then further down says 4.

My interpretation is that the law requires those under
3 to be in a carseat. Those older than 3 are not required to
be in a carseat by law, but if they are (and they should be)
the proper seat is as described. I'm surprised they only
require child restraints up until 3 years old, though. It
seems like most places are up to 6 or 8 years old.

But
also it doesn't distinguish whether they have to reach both height and age,
or one.

I think it does. For the first bullet, a child has to
be *both* over a year *and* over 20 pounds to go forward
facing. For the second bullet, the child has to be 1-4
years old and 20-40 pounds to be in a forward facing
carseat. Between 4 and 6 years and 40 and 60 pounds, a
booster is appropriate. Over 60 pounds, they should be
in a booster or seatbelt, as dictated by other relevant
factors (like their height). Really, though, the bulleted
items are trying to convey current safety standards. It
looks like the law is that you child must be appropriately
restrained up to 3 years old.

Finally, I can't find out for sure anywhere if a booster with a back
would be considered a forward facing car seat, or whether it would have to
be one with a 5 point harness?

A booster is not a car seat. You'd need the 5-point
harness for it to act as a car seat.

If I could figure that out, then I might at least be some way on the way to
working out out particular situation, we are still a few months off, but
Nathanael will be 4 in May, but there is absolutely no way he will be 40
pounds, but he will get too tall for his seat at some point, possibly before
then, possibly after, but unless something very odd happens, well before he
is 40 pounds. So ideally we'd get him a booster with a back that will last
through his car seat using days, but that will only work, if either a
booster with a back counts as a car seat, or he gets into the 4-6 category
by age (in which case, he apparently wouldn't need one with a back, but I
think that would be better as whilst he's not as short as his is skinny, he
is still on the short side).

You should keep him in a five point harness until
he's at least 40 pounds.

I also can't get a clear answer for Washington school bus laws, I have a
friend who's twins still aren't 40 pounds, or only one of them is, at age 7,
they rode the school bus from the start of kindergarten and have never been
asked about weight, which seems the opposite to what I've heard people in
other states say, but I wonder if it's one of those things that is in the
law, but the onus is on the parents to figure it out, when I asked my
friend, she didn't know what the law was and had assumed that because no one
had asked it was fine.

Typically, school busses are exempt from these things.

I'd also be interested to know if there is actually any research that
supports the weight as being the cut off for changes, it partially makes
sense due to the tension on the seat belt in an accident, but when it comes
to the change between seats and boosters, it would seem height was also
important?

Height and weight are both important from a safety
perspective. Not everything that is safest is legally
required, however.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Jeanne wrote:
Anne Rogers wrote:
I'm confused by the car seat laws here, this is what it says:

Children under the age of three must be properly
secured in an approved child car seat. Children should be
secured in the rear seat. Never secure a child in the front
passenger side, especially if your vehicle has an air bag. If
you are in a crash and the bag opens, your child could be
injured or killed.
Washington state requires proper restraint of children:
. one year and under, or 20 pounds and under, in a
rear-facing child car seat,
. one to four years and from 20 to 40 pounds in a
forward-facing child car seat,
. four to six years and between 40 and 60 pounds in a
booster seat, and
. six years and older or over 60 pounds with seat belts
or a booster seat.

FWIW, one friend had her kids in boosters until 4th grade. According to
your laws, DD still needs to be in a booster (56 lbs) although she is 9
years old, in 4th grade and about 4'8".

No, that's where the last bullet comes in. If they're
six years old or older, they can be in a seatbelt or a booster.
Current understanding of what's safest might say something
different, but the bullets specified above say 6yos can be
in a seat belt.
What the above are unclear on is what to do with
kids who fall completely outside their categories, like a
5yo who weighs 70 pounds.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Anne,

Monkey Boy is also very slender. His height required that we move him
from a rear facing infant seat to a front facing one, to a child seat,
and to a larger child seat, long before his weight reached the minimum
for each larger seat.

The objective is to ensure the child is secured, in a seat that fits
properly (to the extent that proper fit can be achieved). I think
5-point harnesses are vastly safer than shoulder-lap belts, so I will
keep my kids as long as possible in a "shell" car seat that includes an
over-the-seat-back anchor. And skip the backless booster stage
altogether.

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Jeanne wrote:
Anne Rogers wrote:
I'm confused by the car seat laws here, this is what it says:

Children under the age of three must be properly
secured in an approved child car seat. Children should be
secured in the rear seat. Never secure a child in the front
passenger side, especially if your vehicle has an air bag. If
you are in a crash and the bag opens, your child could be
injured or killed.
Washington state requires proper restraint of children:
. one year and under, or 20 pounds and under, in a
rear-facing child car seat,
. one to four years and from 20 to 40 pounds in a
forward-facing child car seat,
. four to six years and between 40 and 60 pounds in a
booster seat, and
. six years and older or over 60 pounds with seat belts
or a booster seat.

FWIW, one friend had her kids in boosters until 4th grade. According
to your laws, DD still needs to be in a booster (56 lbs) although she
is 9 years old, in 4th grade and about 4'8".

No, that's where the last bullet comes in. If they're
six years old or older, they can be in a seatbelt or a booster.
Current understanding of what's safest might say something
different, but the bullets specified above say 6yos can be
in a seat belt.
What the above are unclear on is what to do with
kids who fall completely outside their categories, like a
5yo who weighs 70 pounds.


Got it. I always found the laws vaguely written as if the politicians
use OR and AND interchangeably. Maybe freshman politicians should take
a Logic course.

Finally, I can't find out for sure anywhere if a booster with a back
would be considered a forward facing car seat, or whether it would have
to be one with a 5 point harness?

A booster is not a car seat. You'd need the 5-point
harness for it to act as a car seat.

not even a booster with a back? there is a car seat available in the UK that
uses the regular adult seat belt and is essentially a booster with a back,
but meets all European safety standards for 9mths+ and 20lb+, I find that
quite scary!

Presuming you are correct in that these are guidelines and the law is
actually quite lax in a seat just being required til age 3, at least
whatever we do, we won't be breaking the law, but it will become impossible
to follow those guidelines, I'm not sure how many notches there are left
that we can rise the shoulder straps, will have to look next time the seat
is out the car, but it's not many and definitely not enough to take him to
40lb, I realise I only specified his approx centile, not his current weight,
he's 28lb and about the fastest he's gained weight for a while is a pound in
2mths, which will make him 31lb at 4yrs, but he seems to be shooting up in
height at the moment, hence thinking he will need something new relatively
soon.

To confuse matters further, there is a poster that is up in preschools and
daycares and so one which appears to come from the state, rather than a
particular company that uses different guidelines!

Cheers

Anne

http://depts.washington.edu/booster/...keen_bill.html

ah, looks like it is a law not a guideline, but this page uses the word or,
but doesn't state which law take precedence when they are in two different
categories by age and weight! However there is a link to a pdf at the bottom
of the page that links to the actual law (which is what I couldn't find
before) and that makes it clear that it's the lower of the two categories
that is important and this also makes clear that a child seat is one with a
5 point harness (though it calls it a 4 point shoulder restraint system). It
also states it doesn't apply to school buses, which is a relief, but it
leaves me stumped as to what to do when he grows out of this seat. I think
the 3 in the text I copied must be a typo, it's from the Washington state
drivers guide, apparently these laws are one of the strictest, at least when
they came in.

So now we'll be on the hunt for a suitable seat xkatx mentioned a graco one
that has an optional 5-point harness, I'll have to track it down!

Heightwise I've just cornered him and measured him he's 3'1" now and I'd
guess 3'3" is when he'll grow out of this seat.

Cheers

Anne