preschooler excluding playmates

My daughter, Katie, is 3.5 and very outgoing. She makes friends really
easily. Unfortunately, I am starting to see her act a bit bratty
toward others.

For instance, last Saturday we had a planned playdate at the park with
her friend, KB, who is also 3.5. We play with the same friend every
week.

The two girls played fine for a while, and then another girl showed up
(Cameron) who is 4.5. Very nice little girl. We have played with her
occasionally before when we happen to find ourselves at the park at
the same time before.

My daughter starts playing with Cameron and not with KB. For while,
noone seem to really notice, and then KB tries to join back in, and
Katie tells her no, I'm playing with Cameron and not with you.

I stepped in and told Katie that all of the kids should play together.
She basically ignored me and I let it be. KB played mostly by herself.

Later Katie and Cameron were playing the sand, and KB wanted to play
too. KB's mother suggested to KB to ask if she could play too, but KB
did not. Cameron heard, and invited KB to play. Katie accepted this,
but would not have invited her. In fact, I suspect that if KB had
asked, Katie would have told her no.

Any advice about what to do in the future? I talked to Katie some
about this after. I told her that not playing the KB makes KB sad, and
all the friends should play together. Katie said that she was not mean
to KB.

I've seen Katie exclude a third child a number of times before, and
I'd like to try to put an end to it, at least the explicit stuff
(where she tells a friend that she may not join in). A few times,
Katie has been at the receiving end, but does not seem to see the
connection (how it feels for her to be excluded and how KB must feel).

Any advice?

Jan

In article ,
(Jan) wrote:

My daughter, Katie, is 3.5 and very outgoing. She makes friends really
easily. Unfortunately, I am starting to see her act a bit bratty
toward others.

For instance, last Saturday we had a planned playdate at the park with
her friend, KB, who is also 3.5. We play with the same friend every
week.

The two girls played fine for a while, and then another girl showed up
(Cameron) who is 4.5. Very nice little girl. We have played with her
occasionally before when we happen to find ourselves at the park at
the same time before.

My daughter starts playing with Cameron and not with KB. For while,
noone seem to really notice, and then KB tries to join back in, and
Katie tells her no, I'm playing with Cameron and not with you.

I stepped in and told Katie that all of the kids should play together.
She basically ignored me and I let it be. KB played mostly by herself.

Later Katie and Cameron were playing the sand, and KB wanted to play
too. KB's mother suggested to KB to ask if she could play too, but KB
did not. Cameron heard, and invited KB to play. Katie accepted this,
but would not have invited her. In fact, I suspect that if KB had
asked, Katie would have told her no.

Any advice about what to do in the future? I talked to Katie some
about this after. I told her that not playing the KB makes KB sad, and
all the friends should play together. Katie said that she was not mean
to KB.

I've seen Katie exclude a third child a number of times before, and
I'd like to try to put an end to it, at least the explicit stuff
(where she tells a friend that she may not join in). A few times,
Katie has been at the receiving end, but does not seem to see the
connection (how it feels for her to be excluded and how KB must feel).

Any advice?

Jan

this is an area that if I had it to do over again I would be more
proactive -- I tended to let the 'kids work it out' which was a mistake
I think -- the purpose of playdates is among other things to help kids
learn social skills and values -- and one of those values is inclusion
-- others are sharing and turn taking -- my first child had a bit of a
rough time socially when school age because he didn't learn some of the
social skills he should have during pre-school play years

young kids often need some adult guidance to develop these skills --
asking a child to include a playmate [who is the official 'playdate' at
that] and then allowing yourself to be ignored is a sort of double
whammy bad thing --- your daughter has been reinforced in snotty unkind
behavior AND has been reinforced in ignoring mom

I think you should have re-directed the play - perhaps suggesting a new
game [perhaps come with something extra cool to play -- as a tool for
intervention in situations like this] and involving the other child

a playdate is a commitment for your daughter to play with the other
child -- it is unkind to snub a person you have a 'date' with even if it
just another pre-schooler

In article ,
(Jan) wrote:

My daughter starts playing with Cameron and not with KB. For while,
noone seem to really notice, and then KB tries to join back in, and
Katie tells her no, I'm playing with Cameron and not with you.

I stepped in and told Katie that all of the kids should play together.
She basically ignored me and I let it be. KB played mostly by herself.

There's a great book written by a kindergarten teacher about how she
dealt with this issue in her classroom. It's called, "You can't say you
can't play." Here's a summary:
http://www.futurenet.org/8Education/rysavy.htm

That line has stuck with me. I think "You can't say 'you can't play'" is
a good rule.

I'd definitely step in. At two, you teach sharing, no grabbing, and
taking turns. At three, you teach playing nicely with others. I'd tell
her that everybody gets to play, and if she wasn't going to let other
kids play, then she needed to have a time-out, or maybe end the playdate.

It's also good to redirect, and suggest a new activity that they can all
do together, especially if it's something that fun with more.

- Lynn

Jan wrote:

My daughter, Katie, is 3.5 and very outgoing. She makes friends really
easily. Unfortunately, I am starting to see her act a bit bratty
toward others.


Any advice about what to do in the future? I talked to Katie some
about this after. I told her that not playing the KB makes KB sad, and
all the friends should play together. Katie said that she was not mean
to KB.


I think its an age thing, too, they are just getting to where they play
well with another friend instead of the parallel play, but adding one or
two more kids to the mix makes it harder for them I think. It still
doesn't excuse the behavior she's exhibiting, though. My daughter is also
3.5 and I've seen this go on, but she is usually the one who is excluded,
she isn't as outgoing or persistent as some other kids her age. In cases
where she told another kid they couldn't play with her and friend x
(friend x is usually the instigator of this type of thing), I've told her
that she has to include other friends to play with otherwise we'll go
home/end the playdate. I think on one occasion I removed her from the
play and told her she could choose to a)sit on a bench until she was ready
to be kind to other friends, or else b) go home, and a) ended up working.

In a way I think its hard because some kids are more annoying than others
- I'm not sure I'd want to play actively with certain kids, but on the
other hand common courtesy and kindness should always be the rule or else
play time is over.

cara

(Jan) wrote I've seen Katie exclude a third
child a number of times before, and
I'd like to try to put an end to it, at least the explicit stuff
(where she tells a friend that she may not join in). A few times,
Katie has been at the receiving end, but does not seem to see the
connection (how it feels for her to be excluded and how KB must feel).

I think this (lack of ability to see, or perhaps rather to "feel," the
connection) is developmentally normal, but until she develops her
capacity for compassion, IMO, you need to control things. I would have
insisted she include the other girl, or would have taken her home.
Play nice or we go home, that's the rule.

Jenn wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Jan) wrote:


I'm the OP -- I had to change email address to get google to accept
this post.


this is an area that if I had it to do over again I would be more
proactive -- I tended to let the 'kids work it out' which was a mistake
I think -- the purpose of playdates is among other things to help kids
learn social skills and values -- and one of those values is inclusion
-- others are sharing and turn taking -- my first child had a bit of a
rough time socially when school age because he didn't learn some of the
social skills he should have during pre-school play years

Thanks. This has been my gut feeling as well. I don't think letting
the kids work it out will be effective, because Katie seems to be kind
of naturally popular and she's not getting much reinforcement from the
kids who want to play with her.


young kids often need some adult guidance to develop these skills --
asking a child to include a playmate [who is the official 'playdate' at
that] and then allowing yourself to be ignored is a sort of double
whammy bad thing --- your daughter has been reinforced in snotty unkind
behavior AND has been reinforced in ignoring mom

Absolutely. I have a try very hard to make sure that whenever I tell
Katie to do something, I ensure she does it so that I will not be
ignored. This was really easy with sharing and turn taking, but I was
at a loss for how to make her play with someone.


I think you should have re-directed the play - perhaps suggesting a new
game [perhaps come with something extra cool to play -- as a tool for
intervention in situations like this] and involving the other child

a playdate is a commitment for your daughter to play with the other
child -- it is unkind to snub a person you have a 'date' with even if it
just another pre-schooler

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to send a note to the other mom now,
to let her know that I'm going to be more proactive next time.

Thanks a lot for all the responses. I've been reading a lot of sibling
rivalry books lately, and had gotten skewed a bit toward the "let them
work it out" direction. The responses here have skewed me back toward
insisting my daughter be nice.

-Jan

PS

The problem is hard for Katie partly because she has had some bad
experiences at the park in the past, where she starts playing with
another kid, and the other kid just disappears. Generally a parent
decides to take them home while Katie temporarily off somewhere,
getting a drink, or climing a ladder or whatever. Consequently, when
Katie makes a new friend at the park now, she is terrified of letting
them out of her sight lest they disappear. I think this is part of the
reason why she excludes her designated playdate when she meets someone
else. If she is more inclusive to play with both her new friend and
KB, her playdate, there is more of a chance of the new friend getting
away.

However, I am going to use diversions (here's a game the three of you
can play) and timeouts for Katie next time this happens and Katie
tries to exclude her playdate. We also endevour to model proper
park-exiting behaviour (say goodbye to the child you have been playing
with) for the other parents. Grr.

On 20 Jan 2004 12:17:11 -0800, (Jan) wrote:

I've seen Katie exclude a third child a number of times before, and
I'd like to try to put an end to it, at least the explicit stuff
(where she tells a friend that she may not join in). A few times,
Katie has been at the receiving end, but does not seem to see the
connection (how it feels for her to be excluded and how KB must feel).

First realize that this is normal social experimentation.
She does need to see what is acceptable socially in these situations.

Any advice?

Jan

You will need to keep talking to her about it.

When she is on the opposite end and someone is excluding her,
talk to her right away about how she feels. Then when she is
excluding someone remind her about how she felt when it happened
to her.

Adult intervention is often required though in situations where there
is more than two children. For one thing, kids want to be *best
friends* and sometimes that means they want to play *alone together*
if you know what I mean. So teach her to say: "I want to play with
___________ right now, but will play with you later." Also step in
and see if you can help them change the game to something where
the other child can play? Can KB be the puppy? if they are playing
house can give them ideas on how to modify the play. Can KB
build a road to your castle? can help them modify the sand play
so she can be included too.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

toto wrote in message
Adult intervention is often required though in situations where there
is more than two children. For one thing, kids want to be *best
friends* and sometimes that means they want to play *alone together*
if you know what I mean. So teach her to say: "I want to play with
___________ right now, but will play with you later."

Thanks, good idea. I worry that even this is not appropriate when we
are having a formal playdate with the child who is being told that she
will be played with later.

Also step in
and see if you can help them change the game to something where
the other child can play? Can KB be the puppy? if they are playing
house can give them ideas on how to modify the play. Can KB
build a road to your castle? can help them modify the sand play
so she can be included too.

Thanks. Some good ideas here.

-Jan