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#41
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How Children REALLY React To Control
"Doan" wrote in message ... On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote: "Doan" wrote in message ... Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-) Why in the world would you think that? Because he said so! :-0 I'm still puzzled as to the reasons for your saying, "Simple answer - Steve is a 'never-spanked' kid! :-)" How do you view it as an answer at all? Or was that meant purely as some sort of "inside joke" that I didn't have the background to get? |
#42
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How Children REALLY React To Control
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote: "Doan" wrote in message ... On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Nathan A. Barclay wrote: "Doan" wrote in message ... Simple answer - Steve is a "never-spanked" kid! :-) Why in the world would you think that? Because he said so! :-0 I'm still puzzled as to the reasons for your saying, "Simple answer - Steve is a 'never-spanked' kid! :-)" How do you view it as an answer at all? Or was that meant purely as some sort of "inside joke" that I didn't have the background to get? You got it! Doan |
#43
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How Children REALLY React To Control
In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
: "R. Steve Walz" wrote in message : ... : No. Think a minute, what is the one way someone could be exposed to : abuse and yet not themselves be abused, so that they learned about : abuse but had little or none of the neurotic reaction against it, : but who was scandalized by it and horrified by it unlike others more : accustomed to it?? Answer: By living as the exceptional family among : a real bunch of abusive insane fundy rural hillbillies and being : totally disgusted by the effects of abuse on their little playmates : who ARE being abyssmally abused for a decade or more by these abusive : cretins!! : If the statistics even come halfway close to holding, most of your "little : playmates" presumably grew up to believe in spanking. Would you take the : kind of verbally abusive attitude toward them that you do toward me? Note that verbally abusive Steven is a product of the child discipline technique which you claim "by and large works well." Chris |
#44
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How Children REALLY React To Control
In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote:
: "Chris" wrote in message : ... : In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote: : : : But by and large, the system works. And throwing it out before we're : : positive that we have something that will work better in the real world, : : with real parents and real children, would be foolish. : : Once again, Nathan, you appear to be talking about win/win cooperative : nonpunitive discipline as if it were some sort of new untested concept : rather than a set of approaches to dealing with conflict in the : parent/child relationship developed decades ago and used successfully in : Chris, this is anecdotal evidence. If I argued that there are thousands of : parents who spank and get good results, you would correctly counter that : just because there are thousands of parents who spank and get good results, : that most definitely does not mean that all parents who spank get good : results. So why should I accept the same kind of reasoning from you : regarding non-punitive techniques? : As I keep saying, how well strictly non-punitive techniques work depends on : children's willingness to cooperate. And as I keep saying, you miss the central driving force behind the success of nonpunitive win/win discipline, which is every child's desire for an harmonious relationship with the key adults in their lives (provided the child's needs are being met in the process). You invoke hypothetical children who are completely indifferent to the quality of their relationships with their parents and then you use these hypothetical children to reason that punishment is essential and the lack of it would be a "disaster." But I have never met a child like that and I doubt if you have. True, you have probably seen children who don't seem to care about their parents' feelings, but show me a child like that and I will show you a child whose parent's blow off the child's feelings. Children give back what they get. Chris |
#45
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How Children REALLY React To Control
On 10 Jun 2004 18:21:52 GMT, Chris wrote:
Note that verbally abusive Steven is a product of the child discipline technique which you claim "by and large works well." According to Steve, he was never spanked or punished at all. I do, however, doubt that his parents used win-win techniques, but since we don't have his parents posting here, we cannot know what they really did. Chris -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
#46
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How Children REALLY React To Control
On 10 Jun 2004, Chris wrote:
In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote: : "R. Steve Walz" wrote in message : ... : No. Think a minute, what is the one way someone could be exposed to : abuse and yet not themselves be abused, so that they learned about : abuse but had little or none of the neurotic reaction against it, : but who was scandalized by it and horrified by it unlike others more : accustomed to it?? Answer: By living as the exceptional family among : a real bunch of abusive insane fundy rural hillbillies and being : totally disgusted by the effects of abuse on their little playmates : who ARE being abyssmally abused for a decade or more by these abusive : cretins!! : If the statistics even come halfway close to holding, most of your "little : playmates" presumably grew up to believe in spanking. Would you take the : kind of verbally abusive attitude toward them that you do toward me? Note that verbally abusive Steven is a product of the child discipline technique which you claim "by and large works well." Chris LOL! He was NEVER-SPANKED! Doan |
#47
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How Children REALLY React To Control
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, toto wrote:
On 10 Jun 2004 18:21:52 GMT, Chris wrote: Note that verbally abusive Steven is a product of the child discipline technique which you claim "by and large works well." According to Steve, he was never spanked or punished at all. I do, however, doubt that his parents used win-win techniques, but since we don't have his parents posting here, we cannot know what they really did. Chris But we know that Chris & LaVonne were spanked! Chris has an M.A in Biology and LaVonne has a Ph.d. Their parents weren't stupid afterall! :-) Doan |
#48
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How Children REALLY React To Control
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:40:17 -0700, Doan wrote:
On 10 Jun 2004, Chris wrote: In alt.parenting.spanking Nathan A. Barclay wrote: : "R. Steve Walz" wrote in message : ... : No. Think a minute, what is the one way someone could be exposed to : abuse and yet not themselves be abused, so that they learned about : abuse but had little or none of the neurotic reaction against it, : but who was scandalized by it and horrified by it unlike others more : accustomed to it?? Answer: By living as the exceptional family among : a real bunch of abusive insane fundy rural hillbillies and being : totally disgusted by the effects of abuse on their little playmates : who ARE being abyssmally abused for a decade or more by these abusive : cretins!! : If the statistics even come halfway close to holding, most of your "little : playmates" presumably grew up to believe in spanking. Would you take the : kind of verbally abusive attitude toward them that you do toward me? Note that verbally abusive Steven is a product of the child discipline technique which you claim "by and large works well." Chris LOL! He was NEVER-SPANKED! Chris lied then? Usually you call people liars when they err. Reforming? You? A spanked child? Wonders never cease. I do notice though that you laugh at other people's honest mistakes. Why is that Doan? Still a little boy waiting fearing that when you go home you may get spanked so you cover up your old inner fear by laughing at other people? Did you laugh at your parents waiting to spank you? Or were you afraid? I guess that's why Chris, so often in addressing you, laughed at yo........oh wait. I can't count all the times you have him and he hasn't at you. Well, I could do it far faster with him. I don't think he has. Ever. Chris has treated you quite civily, and yet you claim you only give what you get. Do you really think that is a true statement, or could you be deceiving both us and yourself Doan? Why is that Doan? Could THAT be a lie, Doan, along with your claim you just tell parents to make up their own mind about spanking. And that's really all you do? R R R R Years of peddling the spanking compulsive's agenda and you still can't see it. My, I'm not Chris. I laugh. At you. Doan Kane |
#49
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How Children REALLY React To Control
"Chris" wrote in message ... And as I keep saying, you miss the central driving force behind the success of nonpunitive win/win discipline, which is every child's desire for an harmonious relationship with the key adults in their lives (provided the child's needs are being met in the process). You invoke hypothetical children who are completely indifferent to the quality of their relationships with their parents and then you use these hypothetical children to reason that punishment is essential and the lack of it would be a "disaster." My hypothesis does not require the existence of children who are "completely indifferent." It requires only the existence of children whose desire to engage in certain actions that their parents consider unacceptable outweighs whatever damage to harmony those particular actions will cause. (By "unacceptable," I am referring to matters serious enough that the parents believe they ought to be non-negotiable or negotiable only within certain boundaries, not just to actions parents would prefer not to accept.) Further, children are not the only ones with a desire for harmony. One of the things that can happen in any relationship where needs and desires are not entirely compatible is for there to be quiet power struggles in which who wins and who loses depends on which side is willing to give in in the interest of harmony first. (In an ideal relationship, both sides will love each other enough and care enough about each other's desires that a middle ground can be found without such a power struggle, but I don't view it as realistic to expect all relationships to consistently measure up to that ideal.) If the parents generally give in first, the result is in the direction of the stereotypical spoiled brat who knows that if he or she doesn't cooperate, harmony will still probably come when the parents give up. In most cases, the results will not be to nearly the extreme of the "spoiled brat" stereotype, but situations in which children win and cause their parents to lose because the children are willing to outlast their parents in accepting disharmony will exist. On the other hand, consider situations in which a child is reluctant to give up doing what he or she wants to do in the interest of whatever amount of harmony is at stake regarding that particular issue, and in which the parents decide that they cannot afford to give up in the interest of harmony because they view the issue as too important. In such cases, the parents are in effect using the ongoing disharmony as a form of punishment to try to modify the child's behavior. As long as that approach works quickly, results can be good and it is entirely possible that neither the parents nor the child will even realize (at least on a conscious level) that a sort of punishment is being used at all. But if that approach does not work, it degenerates into a situation in which an ineffective form of punishment is being used over and over, harming the relationship while accomplishing nothing useful in return. And if parents cannot persuade the child to change his or her mind and are not willing to accept that ongoing harm, a purely non-punitive approach leaves the parents with no choice but to give up, accept defeat, and let the child win no matter how concerned they are about the possible consequences of the behavior. But I have never met a child like that and I doubt if you have. True, you have probably seen children who don't seem to care about their parents' feelings, but show me a child like that and I will show you a child whose parent's blow off the child's feelings. Children give back what they get. You're fighting a straw man here. Children can care about their parents' feelings but still not always care enough to behave in a way their parents consider acceptable. Further, except maybe in families you are very, very close to (or whose handling of behavioral issues you've studied in depth, if you've done that sort of thing), I doubt that you know a whole lot about how many conflicts are resolved by children's deciding to behave better in the interest of harmony and how many are resolved by parents' lowering their standards of what kind of behavior they are willing to accept in the interest of harmony. Also, how sure can you be that you aren't falling into the "The parents must not be trying hard enough" trap? Keep in mind that there is a self-selection process involved in whether or not parents stick to entirely non-punitive methods. Thus, if children do not care enough about their parents' feelings to behave acceptably on a reasonably consistent basis, and the parents respond by giving up on a non-punitive approach as a result, you can dismiss those cases as ones in which the parents' lack of commitment to non-punitive techniques is to blame. Couple that with other cases in which parents respond by substantially lowering their standards of what constitutes acceptable behavior and the illusion that children always care enough about harmony to behave acceptably becomes even more complete. And at a deeper level, as I said before, your view hinges on a religious/philosophical view that human beings are automatons controlled entirely by heredity and environment, with no free will to make choices for ourselves, and that as long as parents do everything right, it is impossible for children to do wrong (except maybe once in a very rare while) once they understand how their actions impact others. To those of us who believe in free will, and who thus believe that children can choose to do good no matter how bad their parents are and that children can choose to do bad no matter how good their parents are, your underlying religious/philosophical assumption is not valid. If you want to convince me that purely non-punitive techniques work so reliably that punishment is never needed, and especially if you want to convince me that that is true in the real world with real parents with all their human flaws rather than only in an idealized world in which all parents are fairly close to perfect, you'll need a whole lot more than just claims based on anecdotal evidence. Nathan |
#50
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How Children REALLY React To Control
"Kane" wrote in message m... (responding to Doan) I do notice though that you laugh at other people's honest mistakes. I think what Doan found humorous was not the fact that Chris made a "mistake" in and of itself, but rather the irony of how that mistake (if it was one) turns around and has Chris criticizing parenting techniques that Steve characterizes as non-punitive. But did Chris actually make a mistake? Or was he laying the blame for Steve's behavior on the way Steve saw other children being treated, and thus in effect saying that spanking caused Steve's behavior even though Steve himself was not spanked? I'm afraid Chris will have to answer that one himself, if he wants us to know. The way I look at it, Steve's vitriol comes from a combination of two factors. One is that his parents obviously did not do a particularly effective job of teaching him the importance of expressing disagreement in a civil manner. But that raises the question of whether his parents tried to do so and failed, or whether his parents were similarly intolerant of other points of view and therefore never even tried to teach him civility toward those who disagree with him (at least regarding certain types of issues). Did Steve's parents' methods fail in that regard, or were they simply not used? The other factor involved in Steve's attitude is that from what he's said, it sounds like he has seen a lot of behavior from spanking parents that I would agree was excessive, and in at least some cases (and quite possibly a lot more than just some) completely reprehensible. (For example, the idea of a father's being mean to his children just to show off his control over them is disgusting, and has.absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with legitimate discipline.) Unfortunately, Steve seems inclined to take out his anger on everyone who believes that spanking can be useful even if we agree that a lot of what he saw was wrong. That kind of response is less than entirely rational, but not impossible to understand on an emotional level. By the way, Steve said that the people he saw were "fundy rural hillbillies." Unfortunately, they appear to have been a sort who get so caught up in some passages of scripture that they ignore others. Paul's words, "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath; but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord," (Ephesians 6:4) are wholly incompatible with exerting parental power for its own sake or to show it off to others. "Because I said so" parenting styles are incompatible with the Bible's passages about the importance of teaching children. It is tragic when Christian parents (or at least parents who regard themselves as Christians) get so caught up in the idea that children are supposed to obey their parents that they largely ignore the responsibilities the Bible places on them toward their children. Nathan |
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